Jesus saves from unbelief !

[savedbygrace57]

1 tim 1:



12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;



13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.


14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.



15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.



The Apostle Paul here has no problem here relating His sinnership with His previous unbelief, which lead to his blaspheming, being a persecutor, and injurious.



Unbelief fueled those other sins, and hence, to be saved from His sins and from under there power, he needed to be saved from his unbelief as well..



Many falsely teach that unbelief is not a sin for which Christ died, but that is false, for Christ died for all His peoples sins, unbelief being one of them.



To be a unbeliever is to be a sinner of the worst kind, for it is classified with other notorious sins that classify men who will have their part in the lake of fire !



rev 21:



8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



We have different types of sinners here pointed out by Divine Inspiration who will not see heaven, and they are :



The fearful, the unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolators, and all liars..



being a unbeliever is no better than being a whore monger or a murderer or and idolater..



If Christ therefore died for ones sins, He died for their unbelief, for it is just as much a sin of the flesh and the mind as any other sin..



So when God laid upon Him my iniquities [ isa 53:6]

Was not unbelief the sin that caused satan success with eve when she turned to her own way ?



Notice gen 3:



4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [see jn 8:44]



5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.



6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.



She believed the lie rather than God, hence unbelief at work..



Unbelief is a notorious sin because it calls God a Liar 1 jn 5:



10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.



Now to say unbelief is not a sin, is to say calling God a liar is not a sin, when God is a God of truth..for God puts His own self as to swear by as the ultimate standard of Truth Heb 6:



13For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,



14Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.



This is why Paul says in giving His conversion testimony, he mentions unbelief , along with his other heinous acts against Jesus christ..and lets remember, Paul was a very religious man when he was in unbelief, so its very possible to be religious and still a notorious unbeliever..



If one dies as a unbeliever, it proves this, that Jesus Christ did not die for their sins..because if He did, He would have delivered them from their sin of unbelief as He does all their other sins, for scripture says Matt 1:



21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.



1 tim 1:



13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.



15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

To be saved from ones sins, is like Paul, to be saved from unbelief..

 

[savedbygrace57]

So when Jesus made this comment in Jn 8:

24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Those who do not believe in Him, shall die in their sins ! Now that cannot be the same group whom He died for their sins..1 cor 15:

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

You see the conflict here ? People cannot die in the sins that Jesus christ died for..

 

[theTruthful]

then the whole world has been saved for the last two thousand years.

it's too bad that Jesus didn't automatically save us from stupidity as well.

 

[Rick W]

You see the conflict here ? People cannot die in the sins that Jesus christ died for..

I can cook for everybody but it's up to them if they want to sit down and eat.

 

[Physicist]

A couple of points

1) According to serious Biblical scholars, Paul did not write the Pastorals
2) One can freely choose to, say, steal or not steal. How does one 'choose' to believe or not believe? For example, if you said that I would go to Heaven if I believed in the Easter Bunny, I still could not believe in it. It seems to me belief is a matter of assessing the evidence and has more to do with facts and reason than ethics.

 

[savedbygrace57]

You see the conflict here ? People cannot die in the sins that Jesus christ died for..

I can cook for everybody but it's up to them if they want to sit down and eat.

Insufficient example, God cannot punish people for sins that Jesus Christ has been punished for..

 

[savedbygrace57]

the tru says:

then the whole world has been saved for the last two thousand years.

How so ? For christ did not die for the sins of the whole world[as individuals], but of His sheep, the church..the whole world is not of His sheep as is seen in matt 25..

 

[Rick W]

You see the conflict here ? People cannot die in the sins that Jesus christ died for..

I can cook for everybody but it's up to them if they want to sit down and eat.

Insufficient example, God cannot punish people for sins that Jesus Christ has been punished for..

"Insufficient example"
Not really.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He cooked for everybody:

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Not everybody will sit down and eat:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[savedbygrace57]

rick:

Insufficient example"
Not really.

Yes it is, it has nothing to do with the penal substitution of another, If those whom Christ died , being punished for their sins to satisfy Gods penal Justice against them, for God to turn around a punish them for those same sins, is not Just, and tells christ that His suffering penal Justice in their behalf, did not cut it..

God cannot say that Jesus christ did not die for all their sins to include unbelief..unbelief is one of the many sins men committ..

rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

To say He did not die for unbelief is like saying He did not die for murder or whoremongering or idolatry..

 

[Rick W]

I practiced warmongering among other things until I believed. In fact I rejected Christ and said so. Before I believed I was condemned. Then I believed Christ died for my sins and was forgiven.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That was me.

 

[savedbygrace57]

rick:

I practiced warmongering among other things until I believed.

So, the point is that both whoremongering and unbelief are sins that Jesus christ died for, regarding those He died for..God cannot punish someone Jesus christ died for, for unbelief no more than He can punish them for whoremongering, if Christ died already and was punished already for them or in his behalf..

 

[Rick W]

You're still ignoring the fact that unbelief condemns.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Yes, Christ died for me but I didn't believe it. So being that I didn't believe I was condemned.
I refused to sit down and eat.

 

[savedbygrace57]

rick:

You're still ignoring the fact that unbelief condemns.

It condemns no more than any other sin can condemn..

1 cor 6:9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind

Idolators are mentioned in rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

So if you think being a Idolator or fornicator cannot condemn you, you show you dont understand scripture..

 

[savedbygrace57]

The elect are never condemned for their unbelief, because as all their sins, Jesus christ was condemned for them..God cannot hold the elect condemned for their sin of unbelief when Jesus christ was condemned for it along with the rest of their sins...

 

[Rick W]

Ah.
"The elect"
I assume they believe. If not then they can't be the "elected".

Christ taught repentance for good reason.


Anyway,

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Christ died for all but not all will believe and are condemned.

 

[mondar]

Ah.
"The elect"
I assume they believe. If not then they can't be the "elected".

Christ taught repentance for good reason.


Anyway,

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Christ died for all but not all will believe and are condemned.

Rick, in the passage you just quoted, who are the "us" and the "we?"

 

[Rick W]

A while back the pastor of our church wanted to enhance interest in studying the bible. After a few topical studies it was decided to try a topic of more controversial concern. We divided into two groups... predestination and free will. Scripture supported both. What a study that was. It went on so long that other studies were started/ended while that one was still being pursued.

Nowhere do they come together in scripture. We couldn't reconcile the two.

Conclusion:
Both are correct. Some are predestined and some aren't.

 

[Drew]

Conclusion:
Both are correct. Some are predestined and some aren't.

I am not sure how you see this as any kind of satisfying resolution. I may be wrong here, but I thought there were basically two camps here:

1. Those who believe that, from the foundation of time, God fore-ordained that one set of persons go to Heaven and another set go to hell (with all humans in one of these two sets);

2. Those who believe that each human person can "Freely" accept the gift of grace. Therefore no one is predestined to an eternal destiny

This suggestion that "some are pre-destined and some are not" sounds like Solomon's suggestion about sliving the baby in two, so that both mothers are treated fairly.

 

[Drew]

Ah.
"The elect"
I assume they believe. If not then they can't be the "elected".

Christ taught repentance for good reason.


Anyway,

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Christ died for all but not all will believe and are condemned.

Rick, in the passage you just quoted, who are the "us" and the "we?"

I agree with your implication that the "we" here is a statement that is made in relation to believers. The context establishes that believers only are in view here.

However, I do not see how this text supports either position on the matter of pre-destination - it appears to be consistent with both.

 

[mutzrein]

A while back the pastor of our church wanted to enhance interest in studying the bible. After a few topical studies it was decided to try a topic of more controversial concern. We divided into two groups... predestination and free will. Scripture supported both. What a study that was. It went on so long that other studies were started/ended while that one was still being pursued.

Nowhere do they come together in scripture. We couldn't reconcile the two.

Conclusion:
Both are correct. Some are predestined and some aren't.

There is a way to reconcile the two Rick.

Those who are 'predestined' to be given life will be. AFTER they have been given life, they have a 'free will' in determining what they will do with the gift.

Those who are not predestined to be given life, perish.