Jesus saves from unbelief !

[mondar]

In no way does sufficiency require all to be saved.
There is a sufficient amount of food on the table to feed an army.
When all who are hungry have eaten, there is even some left over.

Only those who were hungry ate.

If the crosswork of Christ is universal in scope, and it did not save, how can you call it "sufficient." You might say it is "efficient" for salvation, but not "sufficient."

Your analogy distorts the issue. When speaking only of the value of the atonement, certainly the food (or the crosswork of Christ) is sufficient for an infinite amount of men. But since the crosswork of Christ is not applied to all men, the fact that it is infinite is not relevant to the discussion of sufficiency. In free will theology the atonement is applied to all men, but it is up to men to receive it. Therefore, since the choice is essentially up to men to "eat" or "receive" the atonement is insufficient to save.

 

[savedbygrace57]

eph 2:4-6

When did God make us alive together with Christ ?

eph 2:



4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The answer to the question is in purpose and objectively we were raised up together with Christ at the same time He was raised up by The Father. That is what Paul is teaching here.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Of sin because they believe not on Me !

John 16:8-9


8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

There perhaps is no clearer scripture that identifies unbelief as a sin, in fact it is the chief of sins, the #1 sin that opens up the floodgates to all the rest. It was this sin that made the serpents temptation victorious to the First Parents Gen 3:1-6

1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Eve believed satan over God, satan said the opposite of what God said, God said if ye eat, ye shall die ! Satan said if ye eat, ye shall surely die, and so eve believed satan over God, which means she did not believe God at that time, which is unbelief !

You see, unbelief calls God a Liar 1 Jn 5:10

10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Thats what eve's sin said when she ate, and so all the seed was concluded in unbelief by GOD ! Rom 11:32

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The word concluded here is the greek word sygkleiō and means:


to shut up together, enclose

a) of a shoal of fishes in a net

2) to shut up on all sides, shut up completely

The idea is to hem in, to fence in, to imprison !

So in Judgment, God imprisons all men in unbelief, that is what we are by nature, unbelievers, nothing short of a Sovereign merciful work of God can change that.

So when scripture declares that they shall call His Name Jesus, for He shall save His People from their sins, unbelief is the main one !

Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

This word from is the greek word apo and means out of or separation from

Jesus is promised to save His People out of unbeliever from where they had been taken prisoner and captive.

You know who God uses for that purpose ? Who caused eve to disbelieve God ? Thats right the devil, God uses satan to hold men under unbelief ! Thats why its stated here that the lost, who believe not the gospel, is because the god of this world hath blinded their minds, lest they should believe ! 2 Cor 4:3-4

3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So unbelievers are those whom Satan, by the decree of God, has blinded their minds, and they cannot believe. And they cannot believe because they are lost. Christ's death was not for them, because if it was, Satan's power over them would be destroyed, made null, and then they would believe.

This is important because in organized religion today most all believe they are saved from sin by their act of believing, which means they are saying they are their own Saviors ! Christ did not save them from unbelief, but their believing is what made Christ their Saviour..

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yeah, what about it ? It does not apply to the elect of God, but to the non elect whom Christ did not die for..

Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind. God provided an ability for all to be forgiven and receive His mercy through, Jesus Christ His Son... God's provision is available to ALL however, not all will receive it (through faith in Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.) Grace+faith+nothing...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

If the crosswork of Christ is universal in scope, and it did not save, how can you call it "sufficient."ight say it is "efficient" for salvation, but not "sufficient."

Your analogy distorts the issue. When speaking only of the value of the atonement, certainly the food (or the crosswork of Christ) is sufficient for an infinite amount of men. But since the crosswork of Christ is not applied to all men, the fact that it is infinite is not relevant to the discussion of sufficiency. In free will theology the atonement is applied to all men, but it is up to men to receive it. Therefore, since the choice is essentially up to men to "eat" or "receive" the atonement is insufficient to save.

Only those who receive the truth of God's Grace, will receive it...ALL other's are left to themselves. There's ONLY one way and that is through Christ and Him crucified...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Jn 8:24

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus is saying, If ye die in your sins, Then I was not your Saviour, else you would believe in Me.

You see, Believing in Christ is a evidence that He died for your sins, and saved you from unbelief which was one of your many sins.

savedbygrace57 says----- Believing in Christ is a evidence that He died for your sins, and saved you from unbelief which was one of your many sins.[/QUOTE]

Grubal says-----The truth is, Believing in Christ is, the prerequisite to being saved...

 

[savedbygrace57]

gm

Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind

Not the Christ I serve. I am here witnessing of the Christ I serve, who died only for His Sheep, and saved them from all their sins to include unbelief..

 

[reba]

. . . . Play nice kids​

 

[glorydaz]

gm



Not the Christ I serve. I am here witnessing of the Christ I serve, who died only for His Sheep, and saved them from all their sins to include unbelief..

Jesus came first to the lost sheep of Israel.

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then came the Gospel with it's power to save every creature who believed in Him. We become His sheep when we hear His voice and look upon Him.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Why is it I never hear you talk about faith, which is necessary for salvation?
Faith doesn't seem to be a part of you particular belief system.

 

[savedbygrace57]

gloryd asked

Why is it I never hear you talk about faith, which is necessary for salvation?

I have had plenty to say about faith, check this thread and begin at post #48 ff and read my comments about faith..

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/justified-faith-jesus-christ-29071/index4.html

 

[savedbygrace57]

Now tell me, how can one be saved from their sins, as scripture promises that Jesus shall do for His People Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now how can this be if they are not saved from their sin of unbelief in the first place ? All are born in sin and unbelief. If the work of Christ cannot save one from unbelief, then He cannot be A Saviour from sin. Especially under this Gospel dispensation unbelief is the worst immorality in the world. This in no wise diminishes the seriousness of unbelief in the Old Dispensation, for after all even the OT Saints gave evidence of Faith in the blood of the Son of God, the lamb Slain from the foundation Rom 3:25

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

However in these Gospel times a fuller revelation of His Person and Work has been made manifested, and consequently more light has been sinned against, in men not believing the record that God has given us of His Son ! That the OT Saints had a conception of Christ coming into the world is seen by Christ's words here Matt 13:16-17

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

The sin of unbelief is the chief sin of all, its the foundation of Idolatry. You see, we are born idolaters by nature, and so unbelievers. This sin is so terrible, that its at the bottom of that sin that Christ says is not forgivable in this age nor the age to come[ Matt 12:24-32]. Now if Christ came to save His People from their sins[Matt 1:21], and yet they or any for whom Christ came to seek and to save, were to die in unbelief Jn 8:24, then Christ Christ has failed as a Saviour ! For its plain foolish for a Saviour to seek to save His People from their sins, but failed to do so because of the very sin He came to save them out of UNBELIEF ! So again, Jesus said of the mission of His Spirit to those He died for, that He would convince them of Sin, and Why ? " Of sin, because they believe not on me;"

 

[glorydaz]

gloryd asked




I have had plenty to say about faith, check this thread and begin at post #48 ff and read my comments about faith..

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/justified-faith-jesus-christ-29071/index4.html

Then what do you say about the serpent on a pole? The people lived after they looked, not before.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Now tell me, how can one be saved from their sins, as scripture promises that Jesus shall do for His People Matt 1:21

2]Now tell me, how can one be saved from their sins, as scripture promises that Jesus shall do for His People

Now how can this be if they are not saved from their sin of unbelief in the first place ? All are born in sin and unbelief. If the work of Christ cannot save one from unbelief, then He cannot be A Saviour from sin. Especially under this Gospel dispensation unbelief is the worst immorality in the world. This in no wise diminishes the seriousness of unbelief in the Old Dispensation, for after all even the OT Saints gave evidence of Faith in the blood of the Son of God, the lamb Slain from the foundation Rom 3:25

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

However in these Gospel times a fuller revelation of His Person and Work has been made manifested, and consequently more light has been sinned against, in men not believing the record that God has given us of His Son ! That the OT Saints had a conception of Christ coming into the world is seen by Christ's words here Matt 13:16-17

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

The sin of unbelief is the chief sin of all, its the foundation of Idolatry. You see, we are born idolaters by nature, and so unbelievers. This sin is so terrible, that its at the bottom of that sin that Christ says is not forgivable in this age nor the age to come[ Matt 12:24-32]. Now if Christ came to save His People from their sins[Matt 1:21], and yet they or any for whom Christ came to seek and to save, were to die in unbelief Jn 8:24, then Christ Christ has failed as a Saviour ! For its plain foolish for a Saviour to seek to save His People from their sins, but failed to do so because of the very sin He came to save them out of UNBELIEF ! So again, Jesus said of the mission of His Spirit to those He died for, that He would convince them of Sin, and Why ? " Of sin, because they believe not on me;"

savedbygrace57-----Now tell me, how can one be saved from their sins, as scripture promises that Jesus shall do for His People

Grubal-----His people are "ultimately" the Jew and Gentile believers who will come to Christ after hearing the word of their salvation and put their faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior. And subsequently be "born-again Spiritually, through the power of the Holy Spirit...These are His people, the others are those who reject Christ... The believers have had their sins paid for by Christ, who shed His blood for their sins. There's no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of Christ's blood...

savedbygrace57------Now how can this be if they are not saved from their sin of unbelief in the first place ? All are born in sin and unbelief. If the work of Christ cannot save one from unbelief, then He cannot be A Saviour from sin. Especially under this Gospel dispensation unbelief is the worst immorality in the world. This in no wise diminishes the seriousness of unbelief in the Old Dispensation, for after all even the OT Saints gave evidence of Faith in the blood of the Son of God, the lamb Slain from the foundation

Grubal-----The unbeliever (after hearing about God's Grace) comes before God with all his sins (in tact) Now the Spirit strives with this man to convict him of sin. The man has opportunities to receive God's Grace through Christ's atonement on the cross, and hence, believe or choose to reject Christ. The outcome of all this, depends on the rejection or acceptance of Christ and what He accomplished at the cross...God's Grace is offered to ALL men and Christ's sacrifice covers ALL men's sins, but not ALL will place their faith in Christ...

savedbygrace57-----This sin is so terrible, that its at the bottom of that sin that Christ says is not forgivable in this age nor the age to come

Grubal----There is ONLY one sin mentioned that is not forgivable and that is, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...

savedbygrace57-----
Now if Christ came to save His People from their sins Matt 1:21, and yet they or any for whom Christ came to seek and to save, were to die in unbelief Jn 8:24, then Christ Christ has failed as a Saviour ! For its plain foolish for a Saviour to seek to save His People from their sins, but failed to do so because of the very sin He came to save them out of UNBELIEF ! So again, Jesus said of the mission of His Spirit to those He died for, that He would convince them of Sin, and Why ? " Of sin, because they believe not on me;"

Grubal-----Christ "CANNOT" fail as Savior, due to the fact that He came to die for the sins of ALL humanity... God therefore. has made provision for ALL those who will put their faith in Christ, and His finished work on the cross...

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ "CANNOT" fail as Savior,

The Christ I serve cannot because He saves His People from their sins, which includes unbelief.

Those who die in their sins, who never believed, my Christ did not die for them, or else they would have become believers in Him..

But the Christ you preach, those he came to save, many of them shall die in their sins, even the sin of unbelief. Thats not a savior from sin.. Thats saying in essence, a saviour came to save those he died for from their sins, but he did not save them because of their sin..ridiculous..

 

[Grubal Muruch]

The Christ I serve cannot because He saves His People from their sins, which includes unbelief.

Those who die in their sins, who never believed, my Christ did not die for them, or else they would have become believers in Him..

But the Christ you preach, those he came to save, many of them shall die in their sins, even the sin of unbelief. Thats not a savior from sin.. Thats saying in essence, a saviour came to save those he died for from their sins, but he did not save them because of their sin..ridiculous..

Christ died for ALL... However, not ALL will place their faith in Him as Lord and Savior. You come from a different perspective my friend...

 

[reba]

In the words of our Lord

Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

He doesn't say here we must agree.


reba

 

[Grubal Muruch]

In the words of our Lord

Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

He doesn't say here we must agree.


reba

That's true...

 

[glorydaz]

The sin of unbelief is the chief sin of all, its the foundation of Idolatry. You see, we are born idolaters by nature, and so unbelievers. This sin is so terrible, that its at the bottom of that sin that Christ says is not forgivable in this age nor the age to come[ Matt 12:24-32]. Now if Christ came to save His People from their sins[Matt 1:21], and yet they or any for whom Christ came to seek and to save, were to die in unbelief Jn 8:24, then Christ Christ has failed as a Saviour ! For its plain foolish for a Saviour to seek to save His People from their sins, but failed to do so because of the very sin He came to save them out of UNBELIEF ! So again, Jesus said of the mission of His Spirit to those He died for, that He would convince them of Sin, and Why ? " Of sin, because they believe not on me;"

It certainly would seem like foolishness if one ignored God's plan for man, and held the assumption that man's very nature held him in unbelief. That, however, is not what the Word tells us.

The invisible things of God are clearly seen and understood by man.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The moral law of God is written in the conscience of man.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Therefore, men who die in unbelief are those who have chosen to reject God. They are without the excuse that you wish to give man, that they are idolaters by nature. That is simply not the case.

It isn't that man COULD NOT...it's that they WOULD NOT. Big difference.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory

It certainly would seem like foolishness if one ignored God's plan for man

I don't know about the Christ you know and serve, but the One I Love and serve, He saved all His People from their sins, to include the sin of unbelief.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

glory



I don't know about the Christ you know and serve, but the One I Love and serve, He saved all His People from their sins, to include the sin of unbelief.

You cannot have "unbelief" if you purposely "choose to place your faith in Christ as your Lord and Savior."