Jesus saves from unbelief !

[Grubal Muruch]

So therefore, you make something that man was lost for unbelief, you make it the condition that he must perform to get saved. You actually make man his own Saviour , because you have already admitted that what Christ did in and of itself for those He died for did not save them ! Its not until man performs belief in Christ that he gets saved. So you make man his own saviour, you deny Christ death alone saves, you promote salvation by works or what mand does, which the bible denies.

I preach that Christ saves His People from their sins, from their unbelief and disobdeince.

Thats what the bible Teaches Matt 1:21


21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

God has always required the faith of man. (Remember, Abraham "believed" God) Abraham was a man of faith. God always requires man's faith. The Bible says, faith pleases God. You or I or anybody cannot be saved without it...

 

[savedbygrace57]

gm

God has always required the faith of man.

Thats works Salvation, a requirement is something man does. Salvation is not by works, its by Grace through Faith, not of works, lest any man should boast.

Jesus Christ saves His People from their sins, which includes unbelief !

 

[Grubal Muruch]

gm



Thats works Salvation, a requirement is something man does. Salvation is not by works, its by Grace through Faith, not of works, lest any man should boast.

Jesus Christ saves His People from their sins, which includes unbelief !

With all due respect, Salvation comes by Grace and requires our faith....Without our faith there is no salvation...

 

[savedbygrace57]

gm

With all due respect, Salvation comes by Grace and requires our faith

Thats works Salvation, condemned by scripture. Faith or believing is something man does, so you are teaching that man is saved by what He does.

Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[mondar]

gm



Thats works Salvation, condemned by scripture. Faith or believing is something man does, so you are teaching that man is saved by what He does.

Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

First, that I recognize that SBG may not claim to accept the "reformed" position concerning soteriology. Also, let me say I agree with the OP. But, I think certain statements above could be softened at least a little.

I think the difference is not Grace Vs Works, but the difference is salvation by grace alone vs grace and human merit (works). I would agree that Grubal gets very close to eliminating any of God's work of Grace in his theology, but I do not think he eliminates grace completely. To put this another way, this issue concerns one of the Sola's, Grace alone. Detractors in this thread keep arguing a canard that faith is a requirement for salvation. Of course this accusation falls on deaf ears because the reformed position of "sola fide" long required faith as the only human requirement for justification. In fact, such shallow argumentation against the reformed position is rather disappointing. But it is also a canard that detractors of the Reformed position believe in works alone.

I would agree that Grubal mixes human merit (or works) with grace. Maybe that is a small step from simply saying that Grubal believes in works salvation. But works + a small amount of grace is not simply salvation by works. On the other hand, it is certainly not salvation by grace alone. Grubal sees faith as being generated by sinful human flesh, and not by the new nature that God gives by grace. Since he sees faith as outside the sovereign grace of God, his position cannot claim to be by grace alone. Not in the least. So then, it would be accurate to accuse Grubal of adding human merit to Gods grace, but not in believing in salvation by works.

To add a text of scripture, faith comes because we are born again in 1 John 5:1.
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
In this text, the word "is begotten" is a perfect tense verb (past action with present results). The present tense participle, "believeth" is the result of the past action of the HS in begetting us of God.

So then if you want a succinct statement, I would say this.......
Faith is the work of God in man that results in justification. Faith is not the work of man for God to earn God's grace. So we both believe faith is a requirement, we just differ on Grace.

 

[Adullam]

Re: The same with the Church, Christ's Eve !

The Church, the bride of Christ sinned, transgressed, however Christ, because He was her Head, He was held accountable for her sin. Adam because he was the head of eve, who actually transgressed first, Adam was held accountable for her sin.

Thats why transgression was not imputed to the Church 2 Cor 5:19, but it was laid to the charge of Christ 1 Cor 15:3

This is very bad reasoning. Adam sinned also by listening to his wife.

For your scheme to work, Sapphira would not have been given a chance to repent of the lie that she and Annanias planned to perpetrate on the church.

I have seen the fruits of such faulty reasoning...it is wicked.

 

[savedbygrace57]

ad

This is very bad reasoning.

It is the Truth, I have explained it, you believe it or not..

 

[savedbygrace57]

mondar

I think certain statements above could be softened at least a little.

Sounds like compromise to me !

I think the difference is not Grace Vs Works, but the difference is salvation by grace alone vs grace and human merit (works).

Human Merit and Works are the same thing. If a person says they are saved because of the something they do, it automatically denotes merit, even if they deny it ! I do not accept your difference already !

). I would agree that Grubal gets very close to eliminating any of God's work of Grace in his theology, but I do not think he eliminates grace completely

He eliminates it altogether by mixing the Two, Just what Paul denies here Rom 11:5-6

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I must say, you as well are guilty of the same, by giving approval to that concept ! It, what you are doing is called connivence !

I would agree that Grubal mixes human merit (or works) with grace.

It is no doubt about it, and you tacitly approve of it !

To add a text of scripture, faith comes because we are born again in 1 John 5:1.
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
In this text, the word "is begotten" is a perfect tense verb (past action with present results). The present tense participle, "believeth" is the result of the past action of the HS in begetting us of God.

I know all that, if you read my threads, I am more than sure that which you say here I have posted many many times. Faith and Believing are works which God hath ordained to the New Creature. In fact see posts 40 and 41 in this thread:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=38519&p=591875&highlight=#post591875

Faith is the work of God in man that results in justification. Faith is not the work of man for God to earn God's grace. So we both believe faith is a requirement, we just differ on Grace.

Faith is not a requirement for Salvation or Justification, that is error ! Faith is an Evidence of Justification. Now it is a requirement as far as giving evidence of Justification or Salvation, but that's it. If you mean anything else by that statement " Faith is a requirement" you too sir believe in Salvation by works and I will not back down off of that for one second !

Your comment here

Faith is the work of God in man that results in justification

Its a devious statement ! What I mean by that is this, that it;s not straitforward !

Faith is the work of God in the Already Justified man, because that is how God communicates the Knowledge of their Justification to them and they become experientially acquainted with it !

But God has declared all for whom Christ died and rose as Justified by His Resurrection from the Dead, this cannot be disputed Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

This Justification is True of those Christ and Rose in behalf of way before they have Faith worked in them by God the Holy Spirit. In Fact it is True while they are dead in trespasses and sins ! It is True before they are born sinners. For instance, If Christ died and rose in 33 ad, and one for whom He died will not be born physically into this world until 1945, has not that person been declared Justified by God through Christ's resurrection from 33 ad ? Yes or no !

 

[mondar]

mondar



Sounds like compromise to me !

Then you heard it wrong. I was speaking of honesty and integrity. Over stating things another person said is not an issue of compromise, but honesty. I am not saying you intentionally tried to be deceptive, but your opponents do not believe in works alone.

Human Merit and Works are the same thing. If a person says they are saved because of the something they do, it automatically denotes merit, even if they deny it ! I do not accept your difference already !

I did not make any difference. I did use the term "human merit" and you used a synonym word, "works." The problem I have is when you use that term "works" you make it sound like your opponents are defending a position of works alone. I would agree that their view of the human origin of human faith ends up being meritorious works that earn the provision of salvation. However, I would not see their position as one of works alone. They at least do see some grace in the death of Christ.

He eliminates it altogether by mixing the Two, Just what Paul denies here Rom 11:5-6

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I must say, you as well are guilty of the same, by giving approval to that concept ! It, what you are doing is called connivence !


It is no doubt about it, and you tacitly approve of it !

It seems you cannot stop misrepresenting anyone that speaks up. I made no tacit approval of the theology of the others in this thread. My complaint against you is not your defense of faith as a gift of God that God generates in the human heart. My complaint is two fold... you do not always properly represent those who speak something different then you, and also I could add your tone is unnecessarily antagonistic.

I would agree that your opponents are mixing grace and human merit (or even works). This is a different statement then they believe in works. The difference is you see the opposite as formal heresy, and I see it as a mere heresy of ignorance. Some of the people on the other side of the fence do not understand how their doctrine results in a doctrine of human merit. In time, hopefully they will understand. They are not formal heretics. Give them some grace.

I know all that, if you read my threads, I am more than sure that which you say here I have posted many many times. Faith and Believing are works which God hath ordained to the New Creature. In fact see posts 40 and 41 in this thread:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=38519&p=591875&highlight=#post591875

Faith is not a requirement for Salvation or Justification, that is error ! Faith is an Evidence of Justification. Now it is a requirement as far as giving evidence of Justification or Salvation, but that's it. If you mean anything else by that statement " Faith is a requirement" you too sir believe in Salvation by works and I will not back down off of that for one second !

Yes, I am aware of our differences here. And of course your accusation is a misrepresentation of what I believe. Had you said I believe that justification is based upon the work of Christ and requires the work of the HS to bring about faith in man, and then God declares man just after that work of the HS in the elect, it would have been accurate. Of course it is more convenient to misrepresent what I am saying and dismiss it as "works." By the way, you also blur distinctions between salvation and justification. They are not identical. Salvation includes the HS work of regeneration. It includes the placing of the new nature in man. Justification is a forensic thing, not an experiential thing.

Its a devious statement ! What I mean by that is this, that it;s not straitforward !

Faith is the work of God in the Already Justified man, because that is how God communicates the Knowledge of their Justification to them and they become experientially acquainted with it !

But God has declared all for whom Christ died and rose as Justified by His Resurrection from the Dead, this cannot be disputed Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

This Justification is True of those Christ and Rose in behalf of way before they have Faith worked in them by God the Holy Spirit. In Fact it is True while they are dead in trespasses and sins ! It is True before they are born sinners. For instance, If Christ died and rose in 33 ad, and one for whom He died will not be born physically into this world until 1945, has not that person been declared Justified by God through Christ's resurrection from 33 ad ? Yes or no !

If you want a yest or now answer, the answer is no. The basis of our justification is found in the cross and our salvation is totally secured at that time. Actually, our salvation was secured in eternity past in our election by God. However, the timing of Gods declaration of innocence does not occur until that time in our lives when he chooses to effectually call us to faith.

Romans 4:25 is not speaking of the timing of justification, but the basis of justification.

It would be similar to the next chapter.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;
11 and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Notice the word "now" (nun). Reconciliation occurs in this life after justification.

 

[savedbygrace57]

mondar

Then you heard it wrong. I was speaking of honesty and integrity.

That may be, however it is a compromise to me !

I would agree that their view of the human origin of human faith ends up being meritorious works that earn the provision of salvation.

Yes, and that is a lie ! No question about it !

They at least do see some grace in the death of Christ.

Yes, and they mix it with works, unacceptable Rom 11:6

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

If you approve or empathize with that sentiment, you are as guilty as they are ! You compromise the Truth, Paul would not do that !

I

would agree that your opponents are mixing grace and human merit (or even works). This is a different statement then they believe in works.

No its not, you admitted they believe in grace AND works ! You cant do that, if you add works, it makes it works Period ! That is the point of Rom 11:6

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Yes, I am aware of our differences here. And of course your accusation is a misrepresentation of what I believe.

I only commented on what you posted, You said faith is a requirement for salvation ! Do you back down off that now ?

If you want a yest or now answer, the answer is no.

Then that proves my point, you believe in salvation by works by what man does, and deny that it is totally by what Christ done for His People and then that is revealed to them by God given Faith!

Romans 4:25 is not speaking of the timing of justification, but the basis of justification.

It is talking about the Accomplishment of Christ death for those whose offences He was delivered for, His resurrection from the penalty of their sins, proved God had acquitted them..His acquittal from death was actually theirs, because He did not die for any personal offecnes of His own..

So you believe in salvation by works as those you are defending and sympathizing for. Nothing you can say can change my mind on that.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Rom 4:25


25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our[The Church] justification.

Scripture says that He was raised again for or because of our Justififcation ! It also states that we [The Church] were raised up together with Him Eph 2:6

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: