Jesus Says to the Pharisees “You have neither heard [the Father’s] voice at any time, nor seen His form,” but the Pharisees Saw Jesus

[jmt356]

Jesus says to the pharisees, “[y]ou have neither heard [the Father’s] voice at any time, nor seen His form” (John 5:37). However, Jesus later states to Philip, “[h]e who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). Therefore, anyone who has seen Jesus has seen the Father. Therefore, the pharisees, who saw Jesus, saw the Father. What then did Jesus mean when He said to the pharisees that they had not heard the Father’s voice or seen His form?

 

[Fastfredy0]

I like this question. I probably can't answer it, but ...

Background Information ... what we 'sort of' know ..
The Trinity (Father, Son, Spirit) and the hypostatic union are a mysteries and therefore the answer is probably is incomprehensible to some degree.

Given: God is of ONE ESSENCE. What is said of the Father, applies equally to the Son and Spirit. All are omnipresent, omnipotent, omnithis, omnithat, etc.

THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION CHAPTER III - Of God, His Unity and Trinity
GOD IS ONE. God is one in essence or nature, subsisting in himself, all sufficient in himself, invisible, incorporeal, immense, eternal, Creator of all things both visible and invisible, the greatest good, living, quickening and preserving all things, omnipotent and supremely wise, kind and merciful, just and true.
GOD IS THREE. Notwithstanding we believe and teach that the same immense, one and indivisible God is in person inseparably and without confusion distinguished as Father, Son and Holy Spirit so, as the Father has begotten the Son from eternity, the Son is begotten (eternally generated) by an ineffable generation, and the Holy Spirit truly proceeds from them both, and the same from eternity and is to be worshipped with both.
Thus there are not three gods, but three persons, co-substantial, coeternal, and coequal; distinct with respect to hypostases, and with respect to order, the one preceding the other yet without any inequality. For according to the nature or essence they are so joined together that they are one God, and the divine nature is common to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

What do we know ...
We know God is Spirit ... what does that mean ... well, we don't know exactly. We know by negation that this means He has no material organization, that he has neither body nor members of the body such as we have, neither shape or form, neither passions nor limitations, but only a spiritual nature. Therefore, His Divine nature is not visible and therefore it cannot be seen.
We know God's divine nature is omnipresent. This means He is everywhere. Man is not capable of seeing anything that is everywhere because God is too big to see. Furthermore, because He is present with every atom, He is in a sense too small too see.

Conclusion 1: God (the divine nature) is not visible so man cannot see Him

Premise 1: Christ is visible.
Premise 2: Christ is God (John 20:28)
Conclusion2: God is visible so man can see Him

Conclusion1 and conclusion2 contradict. One must be wrong .... or something is missing ....

THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION
A RATIONAL SOUL IN CHRIST. Moreover, our Lord Jesus Christ did not have a soul bereft of sense and reason, nor flesh without a soul, but a soul with its reason, and flesh with its senses, by which in the time of his passion he sustained real bodily pain, as himself testified when he said: "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death" (Matthew 26:38). And, "Now is my soul troubled" (John 12:27).
TWO NATURES IN CHRIST. We therefore acknowledge two natures or substances, the divine and the human, in one and the same Jesus Christ our Lord (Hebrews 2). And we say that these are bound and united with one another in such a way that they are not absorbed, or confused, or mixed, but are united or joined together in one person the properties of the natures being unimpaired and permanent.
NOT TWO BUT ONE CHRIST. Thus we worship not two but one Christ the Lord. We repeat: one true God and man. With respect to his divine nature he is consubstantial with the Father, and with respect to the human nature he is consubstantial with us men, and like us in all things, sin excepted (Hebrews 4:15).
THE DIVINE NATURE OF CHRIST IS NOT PASSIBLE, AND THE HUMAN NATURE IS NOT EVERYWHERE. Therefore, we do not in any way teach that the divine nature in Christ has suffered or that Christ according to his human nature is still in this world and thus is everywhere. For neither do we think or teach that the body of Christ ceased to be a true body after his glorification, or was deified, and deified in such a way that it laid aside its properties as regards body and soul, and changed entirely into a divine nature and began to be merely one substance.
Note1: Arminians, in general, believe the divine nature is PASSIBLE
Note2: This is referred to as the hypostatic union by theologians: the union of man and God. This is a mystery to some degree. Christ was called the Son of God (divine nature) and son of man (human nature). The human nature of Christ was not all knowing (Mark 13:32 ... Muslims use that as a cudgel), while the divine nature of Christ is all-knowing. The human nature cried and got tired, while the divine nature does neither (Arminians might disagree as they affirm a passible God).

So, the apparent contradiction above proving (a) God can be seen and (b) yet cannot be seen is explained, to some degree, by the doctrine of the hypostatic union.

Jesus says to the pharisees, “[y]ou have neither heard [the Father’s] voice at any time, nor seen His form” (John 5:37). However, Jesus later states to Philip, “[h]e who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). Therefore, anyone who has seen Jesus has seen the Father. Therefore, the pharisees, who saw Jesus, saw the Father. What then did Jesus mean when He said to the pharisees that they had not heard the Father’s voice or seen His form?

To the question.
Premise 1: Jesus says to the pharisees, “[y]ou have neither heard [the Father’s] voice at any time, nor seen His form” (John 5:37)
Premise 2: Philip, “[h]e who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9)
Conclusion: the pharisees, who saw Jesus, saw the Father according to premise 2; yet did not see the father per premise 1 .. this is a contradiction.

Hmmm ... on the surface it is a contradiction, yet we know God never contradicts Himself so what is the answer ...

My conjectures:

1. Could be anthropomorphism (aside: this may be true, but this is never my favorite explanation)
2. The pharisees definitely saw Christ's human nature and didn't recognize Christ as divine. Therefore did not see God in a spiritual sense but only in a physical sense and therefore one could say they saw him yet didn't see Him.
3. Could simply be that in one sense the pharisees saw God (Christ) but didn't see God as God is Spirit and thus not material and thus cannot be seen. This wouldn't explain Phillip seeing God, but maybe that is a different context.

Well, that's my best shot. Interesting question. It took theologians a long time to systematize the Trinity and Hypostatic union ... and people still say it's a mystery to some degree ... so maybe any answer is "a best guess".

 

[daninthelionsden]

I believe your conjecture #2 sums up what Jesus meant. He was right there in front of them yet they didn't see nor heard. Blind and deaf they were(spiritually speaking of course).

 

[Quantrill]

As with any questions that require an understanding of the Trinity for an answer, there is never a perfect answer. Why? Because no matter how we try to describe and understand the Trinity, we always are left short in areas. But shouldn't we expect that? We are talking about God. And we don't know everything, or can explain everything about God. Personally, I don't think we will ever will. I think we will always be learning about God throughout eternity. How disappointing it would be if I knew everything about God.

That which Jesus said in (John 5:37) is true. That which Jesus said in (John 14:9) is true. There is only one Man who has ever seen and heard and knows the Father. And that is because Jesus is God the Son. But any man who sees Jesus has seen the Father, as the Father was in Christ. (John 17:21) And that is as close as any other man will get.

jmt356 These posts of yours that are always bringing up apparent contradictions seem to me to be for the purpose of casting doubt either on the Bible, or some doctrine of the Bible.

Quantrill

 

[LovethroughDove]

Jesus says to the pharisees, “[y]ou have neither heard [the Father’s] voice at any time, nor seen His form” (John 5:37). However, Jesus later states to Philip, “[h]e who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). Therefore, anyone who has seen Jesus has seen the Father. Therefore, the pharisees, who saw Jesus, saw the Father. What then did Jesus mean when He said to the pharisees that they had not heard the Father’s voice or seen His form?

Mark 4:12 "so that, 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Matthew 13:13-15 "This is why I speak to them in parables: 'Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will ever seeing but never perceiving. For these people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

It is a heart condition. Their hearts weren't really in tune to God's will, but their own.

 

[Christ_empowered]

The pharisees were blinded by arrogance and self-importance, so they didn't see Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior...they saw some uppity carpenter from Nazareth.

 

[Serving Zion]

Jesus says to the pharisees, “[y]ou have neither heard [the Father’s] voice at any time, nor seen His form” (John 5:37). However, Jesus later states to Philip, “[h]e who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). Therefore, anyone who has seen Jesus has seen the Father. Therefore, the pharisees, who saw Jesus, saw the Father. What then did Jesus mean when He said to the pharisees that they had not heard the Father’s voice or seen His form?

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman "God is spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth". God's spirit has always been speaking to humankind, but humankind has not been recognising it, because in the fallen and unspiritual state they can only see the carnal (1 Corinthians 2:14-16). For that reason, God sent prophets as the voice to those who cannot hear - but the humans have rejected the prophets of God and ultimately sought to steal the world from God Himself (Matthew 21:35-38).

It's important to recognise that the Word of God was dwelling in Jesus constantly (John 1:32-33), whereas in the nowadays and the days former, He may be seen as a spirit within in our midst (Matthew 18:20, 1 John 4:15-16, Deuteronomy 30:15-20, Job 23:12, Philippians 2:5-8). Nevertheless, Jesus stood as a human in the form of the flesh in order to testify in the flesh to those who were lost, in case they might catch a glimpse of the glory of God's spirit and trust in Him enough to dispel the fear of receiving Him. Even in the present age, there is a fear to overcome of those in the world who do not receive the spiritual having a mind to persecute and condemn those who do (John 15:20-21).

But the more interesting point in John 14 is to see that although Philip had been with Jesus for such a long time, He had not yet seen the spirit of God. In fact it was only because he had asked that God had answered Him so clearly. There is of course the example of St. Peter in Matthew 16:17 wherein we see that Jesus has acknowledged that Peter has been listening to The Father. It helps to keep that in mind about Peter because I think he was well ahead of the other disciples in his time (Matthew 20:8-10).

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

There are signs out today, often on a block of wood you can keep on your desk.
When you look at it, it doesn't make sense.
If you keep looking at it and let your eyes maneuver back and forth, eventually you can see it says "Jesus".
It was probably quite easy for a Pharisee to look at Jesus and not see who he was.

 

[JLB]

Jesus says to the pharisees, “[y]ou have neither heard [the Father’s] voice at any time, nor seen His form” (John 5:37). However, Jesus later states to Philip, “[h]e who has seen Me has seen the Father” (John 14:9). Therefore, anyone who has seen Jesus has seen the Father. Therefore, the pharisees, who saw Jesus, saw the Father. What then did Jesus mean when He said to the pharisees that they had not heard the Father’s voice or seen His form?

The Pharisees couldn’t see the Father in the Son because they were blind.



JLB