Sinless To Be Saved

[JesusFan]

right so to have no part in the kingdom of Christ is to have no salvation

eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

One cannot be lost and be in the Kingdom of God

 

[Manasseh]

Matthew 5:48, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

A text taken out of context, is a pretext.

 

[GodsGrace]

There seem to be, just as there are verses which suggest that that is an impossibility:

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (ESV)

Free, I'm sure you know how long it would take to go through the golden chain of redemption...
I really cannot do this.

Suffice it to say that ALL scripture must be harmonized,,,
all verses must be reconciled with all other verses.

If someone want to believe that forfeiture of salvation, or loss of salvation is NOT possible....
many verses will have to be ignored...this just cannot be done.

NOTHING can separate us from the love of God BUT OURSELVES.

I believe we have free will.
I believe we have the free will to abandon God if we so choose.
Jesus states that this is possible and Paul and all the writers.

2Co 1:21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us,
2Co 1:22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. (ESV)

Of course.
For as long as we want Him to...
otherwise there would be no IF's in the NT.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

Sealed in Him...used to mean baptism.
Many who are baptized decide to abandon Christianity.
Also, the Holy §Spirit is a downpayment.
The fee must be paid to the end in order to receive the product.

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (ESV)

Sure.
If you allow Him to.
I believe in free will.
God will not force us to be saved.

Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (ESV)

Absolutely.

You said that a member here said that and provided the quote, but I showed you that you clearly took it out of context and it didn't mean what you said. That was HERE. And, I never said such persons do not exist, but simply that I have not seen anyone in this thread say that. I've said that a few times now.

Not talking about other members.
This conversation is sufficient to show that there's a problem with the Christian community.
It's NEW problem that did not exist in the early church.
Christianity cannot be changed...
it is what it is.

But you have. You said: "We must believe AND obey in order to be saved." That was HERE.

I'll repeat it again...no use for you to tell me I stated it.
We must believe AND OBEY in order to be saved.
AFTER salvation Free...
I've said this many times now.

You said that too. But, as I have pointed out, there is no difference between saying "works keep us saved" and "our works save us to begin with." They are both earning salvation, which goes directly against Paul, particularly in Rom. 3, 4, and 5.

Big difference.
Works DO NOT save anyone.
BELIEF IN GOD saves.
Faith saves.

AFTER salvation...BELIEVERS are required to OBEY GOD.

Not listing anymore verses.

I don't like to continue these debates for too long since we will only be repeating.

I've posted John 15:2....
you have not explained in satisfactority.
It is plain and easy to understand.

We could accept what Jesus taught..
or we could accept what man has been teaching recently.
I accept what Jesus taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, but we know, based on the totality of the NT evidence, that our works are evidence of whether or not we are saved. You are promoting works salvation by misunderstanding this verse. Jesus is basically going to put all our works in scale and see which way it tips, and hopefully we've done enough good.

As I said, if you want to call it works salvation, it's fine with me.
There was NO SUCH term in the early church.
Works were expected of Christians.
Some even went to their death for believing in Jesus.

As to a scale....
I don't see any talk of a scale in the NT.

What is salvation actually based on?

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” (ESV)

Please explain what BELIEVE means....
this conversation would end...
and all conversations such as this one.

See,,,You state that you agree that we are to do good works....
but then you find a problem with it and call it "works salvation".

Notice first that Jesus says it is those who believe--put their faith and trust--in him have eternal life and are not condemned. Then he says that those who stand "condemned already," are those who have "not believed in the name of the only Son of God." There is no mention of works.

No mention of works in the verses you posted.
Mention of works in MANY other verses of Jesus' teachings.

Let's discuss John 15:2
Every branch IN ME (a saved person) that does NOT BEAR FRUIT...
will be cut away.

Seems very clear.
Now, maybe we need to erase Jesus' teachings from the NT so that there is no conflict.

OR

There is no conflict, but MAN is causing it.
By man, I mean modern-day teachings.

t is by faith alone. And then verse 20 also supports what I've been saying all along--those who hate the light, those who are unsaved, do "wicked things." That is, those "wicked things" are evidence that they are not saved.

I just don't hear evidence being taught.
Jesus said to be a light so that our good works may be seen and glory given to God.
I stated that God doesn't require evidence.

That is why we are judged on behaviour--because it is the evidence that we are either saved or not saved. Those works, good or bad, do not determine whether or not we are saved.

OK
Then we better start behaving well and obeying !

There is absolutely nothing illogical about them; they're just questions. Why do you continue to refuse to answer simple questions?

Didn't hear any question that requires a reply.
I hear statements that do not make sense and which betray the questioner:
Statements about scales.
The limit of sins before one losses salvation.
Once a child always a child.
and so on....
I'd prefer to post verses except that this convo has gone on to long.

If you wish to discuss one particular verse,,,I'm willing.
Verse ping pong doesn't interest....
Let's hear your take on John 15:2

I quoted you; they're your words. You stated: "Those that teach that obedience is not necessary, or does not matter, are, in effect, stating that a person COULD indulge in these behaviors and STILL be saved." That was HERE.

And I'll repeat it Free.
Your statements sound accusatory....

Here it is again:
Those that teach that behavior is not important are stating that a person could ACT however he wants to and still be saved.

Jesus said that those that DO NOT ACT on His words are fools.

There is nothing to correct. When you continue to avoid relevant questions and take something else I say out of context of those questions, and if it looks like I need correction, then that is your misunderstanding.


If a person "practices" those things, that is, if their life is characterized by those things, then they aren't saved and weren't saved to begin with.

I don't care for the "they were never saved to begin with" theory.
I don't find this in scripture...
If you do, please post some verses.
Jesus said a person could believe and then become lost.
Paul a person could fall away...
fall away from what?

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (ESV)

Agreed.

So IF a believer goes back to being sexually immoral, an idolater, adulterer, etc.
he will be as a tax collector...he will go back to his vomit.

Only as evidence as to whether or not we are saved.

Again,,,God doesn't need evidence....
We obey because God DEMANDS obedience...
in the OC and in the NC.

 

[GodsGrace]

God does, as he wrote to us that we may KNOW that we are saved and have eternal life right now

Yes.
You can know you have eternal life right now...
IF
you do what Jesus taught.

Matthew 7:24
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.


Matthew 7:26
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

There are conditions to accepting the salvation Jesus offers to everyone.
He wants us to ACT on His words.

If we do NOT ACT on His words we're like the foolish man who built his house on sand...
the wind caused the house to FALL.

 

[JLB]

The prodigel always stayed the child and heir of the Father no matter how much sin was living in

The scripture plainly says the prodigal was dead and lost.

He was not physically dead.

He was spiritually dead.

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ Luke 15:32


Angels are sons of God.

Being a son of God doesn’t stop someone from being cast down to hell.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4


Lucifer and one third of the angels are sons of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

The prodigel always stayed the child and heir of the Father no matter how much sin was living in

You never replied to my post no. 426.

Do you not believe the teachings of Jesus?

 

[GodsGrace]

We are saved right new have eternal life right now in the beloved, but then are part of ongoing sanctification process

Right !
What if the sanctification process just ends?
What if a believer just doesn't want to obey God anymore - for whatever reason?
What would happen....?
Would the person still be saved or would they return to the condition they were in before salvation?
(IOW they'd be lost again).

 

[Free]

page 2 of 2

It says: THE UNRIGHTEOUS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

To be unrighteous means to be NOT RIGHT with God.

We are not right with God when we practice ungodly behavior.

What do you mean by "practice"?

Jesus said we must ACT on his words.
Matthew 7:24

Right before which he says:

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (ESV)

Verse 21 is saying that those who do the will of Father, are those whose profession of faith is true. Those who made a false profession and still did "many mighty works in [his] name," he never knew. His knowing us is based on putting our faith and trust in him, as evidenced by doing the will of the Father.

But, we know he says a lot more than just that.

Agreed.
Practicing sin is lawlessness...it's unrighteousness...it's bad behavior.

Correct.
Except for 1 Jn 3.6 we have Jesus Himself stating that God will cut us away from the living vine UNLESS we bear GOOD fruit.
John 15:2
2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


Could you please post a verse that states that a Christian cannot live a sinful life and thus lose his salvation.

I already did, and you quoted them, but I'll expand on them a bit:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. (ESV)

1Jn 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. (ESV)

1Jn 3:3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
...
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)

The NT is consistent in stating that living a life of habitual, willful sin, a life characterized by sin, can only be done by someone who isn't saved. Christians can sin, but because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, will repent.

I posted a few verses above that state a Christian CAN live a life of sin.
Paul and Jesus taught us NOT to live a life of sin....
which means we can if we want to...
but at a cost.

Of course, but since you continue to avoid simple questions, you're going to continue to make these sorts of arguments which don't address anything I have said.

I don't know anyone that is perfect.
I don't think it's possible.

I agree, but what you're saying implies that perfection is necessary. Of course, you could just answer those questions to clarify things.

Actually, if we read carefully....John is only saying this.
IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT JESUS' BLOOD CLEANSES US FROM ALL SIN.

I don't read anything there about conviction,,asking forgiveness, being bothered by sin...

it just states that if we walk in the light...the blood of Jesus will wash us from sin.

IF we walk in the light.

I don't like adding words to plain scripture.

Avoiding words of Scripture is the equal and opposite error. What John is certainly not saying is that simply doing good works will cleanse our sin. That would mean our works would save us to begin with and it would mean we don't have to confess our sins. But, that would contradict what he says in verse 9:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (ESV)

Note the condition for the believer--they must confess their sins in order to be forgiven and cleansed, the word John uses in verse 7. That is, these are those sins committed by one who is already a believer. So, verse 7 is likely either talking about something different, or verse 9 is a detailed explanation of what it means to walk in the light--letting the light expose our sin so we can confess it, and have Jesus's blood cleanse us.

Sure. We can become saved again.
Jesus said so.
We should believe Jesus.

Where did Jesus say this?

I'm discussing saved persons here.

Sure, but you appealed to verses that likely don't refer to saved persons.

Again,,,you're adding words to plain scripture.

Since I didn't do it once, I'm not doing it again. What have I supposedly added "to plain scripture"? It would be very helpful that if you're going to make such claims, that you specify what you're addressing.

Have you not read of false teachers and false prophets throughout the NT, even those that the churches put up with as though they were true teachers? Doesn't that mean these false teachers were not actually true Christians, but maybe even thought they were? Aren't we to recognize a tree by its fruit? Doesn't Paul warn about wolves in sheep's clothing? Doesn't Jesus say that there are tares among the wheat?

1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” (ESV)

Is an evil person saved?

Doesn't John, in the very passage we are discussing, clearly show that there are those who claim to be believers but are not? In just the next chapter, John says this:

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. (ESV)

And Paul:

1Co 11:18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,
1Co 11:19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. (ESV)

That there are those in churches who think they're saved, and maybe have others convinced they're saved, but are not actually saved, is definitely a teaching of Scripture.

So, again, be careful of avoiding words of Scripture; that is as bad as adding to it.

JESUS said:
"Depart from Me,,,,,,YOU WORKERS OF LAWLESSNESS".

No talk of "true" Christians or not.
No talk of being born again.

Just simply:
DEPART FROM ME YOU WORKERS OF LAWLESSNESS.

Who is lawless?
Those who do not keep the LAW OF CHRIST....NOT The Law of Moses.

Lawless are those that do not ACT on the words of Jesus
Matthew 7:26 they build on a house...the storm comes...and the house falls.

But, you're ignoring my point completely by ignoring what else Jesus said. Read that passage again, slowly, noticing what the people say.

 

[Free]

Free, I'm sure you know how long it would take to go through the golden chain of redemption...
I really cannot do this.

Suffice it to say that ALL scripture must be harmonized,,,
all verses must be reconciled with all other verses.

If someone want to believe that forfeiture of salvation, or loss of salvation is NOT possible....
many verses will have to be ignored...this just cannot be done.

NOTHING can separate us from the love of God BUT OURSELVES.

Where does Paul put that caveat in? Paul says "nothing;" you say "nothing but ourselves." So, Paul's nothing doesn't really mean nothing. You warned me earlier about adding to Scripture.

I believe we have free will.

So do I, but it is within bounds and subject to certain qualifications. No one has absolute free will. Besides, the question is not whether or not God will force us to be saved, although we will not "choose" to be saved in the first place apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, the question is whether or not once saved God will stop his work in us and let us go, after paying the ultimate price for our salvation. Since "it is God who works in [us], to will and to work for his good pleasure," I don't think he's going to stop.

It seems the strongest position is that anyone who wants to "choose" to become unsaved, was never actually saved to begin with.

I believe we have the free will to abandon God if we so choose.

That makes little of Jesus's death and makes sin greater than God's love.

Jesus states that this is possible and Paul and all the writers.

Where does Jesus state this is possible?

Of course.
For as long as we want Him to...
otherwise there would be no IF's in the NT.

Where is that stated in the passage?

Sealed in Him...used to mean baptism.
Many who are baptized decide to abandon Christianity.

Baptism doesn't save. A baptized person is not necessarily a saved person, especially in those traditions which practice paedobaptism.

Also, the Holy §Spirit is a downpayment.
The fee must be paid to the end in order to receive the product.

And here is the main issue: the fee has been paid. Your position makes little of Jesus's death. Do you really understand the true cost of salvation, that no greater price could be paid? Our state is so bad that only the death of God's Son could suffice.

"We are his workmanship." Does God's workmanship fail? Do you really think that once a person is truly saved, that God, who saved them in the first place, is going to let people walk away if they choose?

This is what Paul is getting at by saying that "will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Sure.
If you allow Him to.
I believe in free will.
God will not force us to be saved.

So, salvation is dependent on us now? That really makes light of God's plan of salvation and Christ's work.

Absolutely.

Except that if it is God who works in us, to lose one's salvation means that God isn't working in us. That makes this verse false.

Not talking about other members.

You're gaslighting. You are talking about other members, or another member.

You stated: "As I said Free....whether you wish to believe there are those that state obedience is not necessary and that we are not judged by our behavior, is of no relevance.

The fact is that these persons do exist, and, If I remember correctly, I sent you an exact quote."

You claimed you "sent . . . an exact quote," which was by another member in this thread. I responded by providing the post in which I responded to that "quote," and showed how you took it out of context.

This conversation is sufficient to show that there's a problem with the Christian community.
It's NEW problem that did not exist in the early church.
Christianity cannot be changed...
it is what it is.

I'll repeat it again...no use for you to tell me I stated it.

Please stop gas-lighting. I had to tell you since you denied you ever made that claim--you said: "I NEVER said obedience is necessary for salvation." But, you said "We must believe AND OBEY in order to be saved."

We must believe AND OBEY in order to be saved.
AFTER salvation Free...
I've said this many times now.

I know you have and I have pointed out just as many times that your position is not biblical; it is self-contradictory: "We must believe AND OBEY in order to be saved" contradicts "AFTER salvation."

Big difference.
Works DO NOT save anyone.
BELIEF IN GOD saves.
Faith saves.

AFTER salvation...BELIEVERS are required to OBEY GOD.

But they don't save us, otherwise there is no difference between our works saving us in the first place. This, too, undermines Christ's work on the cross and God's work in keeping us saved.

Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (ESV)

Paul's point is that adding anything to salvation, after one has already been saved, is to try and be "perfected in the flesh." That is another gospel. Being obedient and doing good works saves no one. Those who are already saved obey and do good works.

I've posted John 15:2....
you have not explained in satisfactority.
It is plain and easy to understand.

Yes, and it doesn't mean that such a person is actually saved.

We could accept what Jesus taught..

or we could accept what man has been teaching recently.
I accept what Jesus taught.

You accept some of what Jesus taught, which means you're even taking that out of context. We should also accept what Jesus taught throughout the rest of the NT, right?

 

[GodsGrace]

Where does Paul put that caveat in? Paul says "nothing;" you say "nothing but ourselves." So, Paul's nothing doesn't really mean nothing. You warned me earlier about adding to Scripture.

NOTHING can separate us from the love of God.

WHAT is Paul speaking of?
It's right there in
Romans 8:35
35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.


Verse 38 states that nothing can separate us....
Is OURSELVES in the list?
38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

OURSELVES in nowhere to be found in Paul's writings.
WE can separate ourselves from God.

However, he does speak about OUR being able to fall away from our faith...
and the necessity to continue in the faith:

For example...by listening to false teachers. WE pay attention...and thus all away.
1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons


We must continue in the faith:
Colossians 1:22-23
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,

So do I, but it is within bounds and subject to certain qualifications. No one has absolute free will.

Of course we have free will.
Biblical free will...
The free will to choose between two moral options.

Choose this day whom you will serve:
Deuteronomy 30:19
Acts 16:31

Besides, the question is not whether or not God will force us to be saved,

If OSAS is true...and we are saved no matter what...
then God is forcing us to be saved...
even if we do NOT WANT TO be saved by our bad behavior.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Behavior causes loss of heaven.
Men are free to choose their behavior.
The wrong choice AFTER SALVATION will keep us from attaining heaven.

although we will not "choose" to be saved in the first place apart from the work of the Holy Spirit,

No Free.
We CHOOSE to be saved.
No one is going to hell that does not want to be there.
God is not responsible for those going to hell...
He gives to all the same opportunity to be saved.
As long as the person meets with God's requirements:

Acts 10:35
35 “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

the question is whether or not once saved God will stop his work in us and let us go, after paying the ultimate price for our salvation. Since "it is God who works in [us], to will and to work for his good pleasure," I don't think he's going to stop.

§When did I EVER say that God let's us go?
WE leave God.
GOD does not leave US.

We leave God when we fall from our faith,,,just as Paul stated.
We leave §God when we return to a life of sin.

WE leave God.

It seems the strongest position is that anyone who wants to "choose" to become unsaved, was never actually saved to begin with.

Great excuse.
But not a worthy one.

JESUS said a BELIEVER could become CUT OFF.... John 15:2
A BELIEVER could FALL AWAY....Luke 8:13

That makes little of Jesus's death and makes sin greater than God's love.

This is because you do NOT believe in free will.
Want to discuss the Reformed/Calvinist faith?
I'm willing.

Where does Jesus state this is possible?

See above.

Where is that stated in the passage?

Where is WHAT stated??
Can't find it.

Baptism doesn't save. A baptized person is not necessarily a saved person, especially in those traditions which practice paedobaptism.

Did I say ALL baptized persons are saved?

And here is the main issue: the fee has been paid. Your position makes little of Jesus's death. Do you really understand the true cost of salvation, that no greater price could be paid? Our state is so bad that only the death of God's Son could suffice.

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[GodsGrace]

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No.
Stating that obedience is not necessary is making little of Jesus' death.
Spitting on the face of Jesus is making little of His death.
Are you really explaining soteriology to me?!

Here's one for you:
WHY did §God make us so evil?
He could have made us good.
He is Sovereign, is He not??

"We are his workmanship." Does God's workmanship fail? Do you really think that once a person is truly saved, that God, who saved them in the first place, is going to let people walk away if they choose?

Free,,,I don't THINK anything.
I don't second-guess God.
I read the bible and it teaches things that I feel I MUST believe.

Others can read the bible and come up with their own ideas....

But yes, due to our FREE WILL,
God will make us walk away...

This is what Paul is getting at by saying that "will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Answered above.

So, salvation is dependent on us now? That really makes light of God's plan of salvation and Christ's work.

Yes sir.
Our salvation depends on each and every one of us.
If I wish to throw away my salvation...
it is my free will right to do so.

Except that if it is God who works in us, to lose one's salvation means that God isn't working in us. That makes this verse false.

Here's one for you:
IF we sin, and we have no free will...
that makes God the author of that sin.
It makes God the author of evil.

You're gaslighting. You are talking about other members, or another member.

Perhaps I stated it incorrectly...
Here's what I meant:

I'm not here to discuss other members.

NOT

That other members did NOT make the statements I quoted (not verbatim).

You stated: "As I said Free....whether you wish to believe there are those that state obedience is not necessary and that we are not judged by our behavior, is of no relevance.

The fact is that these persons do exist, and, If I remember correctly, I sent you an exact quote."

You claimed you "sent . . . an exact quote," which was by another member in this thread. I responded by providing the post in which I responded to that "quote," and showed how you took it out of context.

Not interested in I said he said you said.

I sent you a PM with an exact quote.
Which is totally irrelevant to this conversation.

Please stop gas-lighting. I had to tell you since you denied you ever made that claim--you said: "I NEVER said obedience is necessary for salvation." But, you said "We must believe AND OBEY in order to be saved."

Here, I'll say it again....
I NEVER said obedience or works are necessary for salvation.

BUT

Obedience and works are necessary AFTER salvation.

I've said this very many times now...
If it is not understood...maybe the time should be taken to try to understand it instead of accusing me of gaslighting.

I know you have and I have pointed out just as many times that your position is not biblical; it is self-contradictory: "We must believe AND OBEY in order to be saved" contradicts "AFTER salvation."

It's unbiblical?
Could you prove this with scripture?

But they don't save us, otherwise there is no difference between our works saving us in the first place. This, too, undermines Christ's work on the cross and God's work in keeping us saved.

Responded to.

Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (ESV)

Do you know what THE LAW is?

Paul's point is that adding anything to salvation, after one has already been saved, is to try and be "perfected in the flesh." That is another gospel. Being obedient and doing good works saves no one. Those who are already saved obey and do good works.

Those who are saved do good works?
EVERYONE?

Is this what Jesus taught?

Please read again
John 15:2a
2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

Every branch IN JESUS ---this would be a saved person
That does NOT BEAR FRUIT, God takes away......God takes away, removes, cuts off, those that do not bear fruit.

That's Jesus saying it...
not me.

Yes, and it doesn't mean that such a person is actually saved.

Jesus does not agree with you.

You accept some of what Jesus taught, which means you're even taking that out of context. We should also accept what Jesus taught throughout the rest of the NT, right?

Agreed.
We must believe ALL of what Jesus taught.