Jesus the Man Before John !

[brightfame52]

The word man does not mean mediator nor vise versa. In no sense of the use of the word man or Hebrew word for Adam can the meaning be used to define the Son who was in whom dwells all the fullness of the Fathers Deity. We use "God" as He has the Fathers very nature in Him. God was the Logos. The radiance of the Fathers glory and the exact imprint of the Fathers very being. Is God a man? There was no Jesus in the beginning. Yes, He is before Adam and even the Angels of God. He is Firstborn of all things. He is before all things. The Father brought into existence all things that were created through, by and for Him.

It means Mediator for Christ 1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Christ Jesus the Man Mediator was in existence before Adam existed, In fact He was Adams Mediator between him and God, do you dispute that ?

 

[brightfame52]

How do you think about it?

Try reading my posts, thats how

 

[LeviR]

Runningman

What is the Spirit saying through Jesus?
He is saying that He desires the same glory that He had with the Father. The full brightness of that glory the Father has. And the glory He had before He was veiled by human flesh.

Speaking of Jesus and the Spirit that dwelt in him after being raised from the dead:

Heb 1:3 - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, andupholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Both sharing the same unveiled Spirit sitting next to each other.

 

[LeviR]

And BTW, the Spirit through Jesus is telling us that the Father is the only true God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Both. He was and is the Word.

I am sure Jesus would respond to one who addressed Him as Word, but I think that since the Word took on flesh, that He as in a sense taken on a new identity...as Jesus the Son of God.

He issued from God's spoken Word,

I disagree.
The Word had always been with God, since the beginning.

and as the Word coming from the mouth of God he emerged a man. He was a revelation of God's person in the form of a human person.

Whose teaching is it that Jesus came forth from the mouth of His Father ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2



Yes Jesus the Mediator was in Union with the Word

I disagree.
The Word quit being the Word when He too on flesh and became Jesus Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

I disagree.
The Word quit being the Word when He too on flesh and became Jesus Christ.

The Mediator Man Jesus was in Union with the Word before the world was created

 

[brightfame52]

LeviR

What is the Spirit saying through Jesus?
He is saying that He desires the same glory that He had with the Father. The full brightness of that glory the Father has. And the glory He had before He was veiled by human flesh.

I believe that Glory Jesus had with the Father before the world began, was highlighted briefly on the Mount of Transfiguration Matt 17:1-2

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Mediator Man Jesus was in Union with the Word before the world was created

The Word had to put on flesh and be born of a woman, in order to be Jesus.

 

[brightfame52]

The Word had to put on flesh and be born of a woman, in order to be Jesus.

I disagree

 

[Runningman]

And BTW, the Spirit through Jesus is telling us that the Father is the only true God.

Do you believe the Spirit is the Father? I do. The same Spirit that took possession of Jesus can indeed take possession of us.

Matthew 10
20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

 

[LeviR]

Do you believe the Spirit is the Father? I do. The same Spirit that took possession of Jesus can indeed take possession of us.

Matthew 10
20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

The Father is the person, the Spirit is not the person. His Spirit proceeds from Himself. His Spirit is sent from Himself.
Man was not made in the image and likeness of His Spirit, but in Himself
The Father is in heaven. His Spirit can be put upon others so that they can do the same things the Father can do.
They can have the power, wisdom and knowledge to know and do as He does. His Spirit can be given in measure to others or without limit as was given to Jesus.
The Father is the person, His spirit is not.

 

[LeviR]

LeviR



I believe that Glory Jesus had with the Father before the world began, was highlighted briefly on the Mount of Transfiguration Matt 17:1-2

And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

I believe that glory shown in the transfiguration is the glory of the Father that His Spirit provides.
His glory is shown by His Spirit.
The Father gives to Jesus that glory by His Spirit.
So it is the Spirit that is with the Father and was veiled by the human flesh of Jesus that existed before the world began.

 

[RandyK]

I am sure Jesus would respond to one who addressed Him as Word, but I think that since the Word took on flesh, that He as in a sense taken on a new identity...as Jesus the Son of God.

I'm not suggesting we address Jesus as "the Word." For example, I don't pray, Father, bless your name, in the "Word's" name, Amen.

We identify Jesus as God's Word in terms of his being a literal expression of who God is from God's own mouth. Jesus' human personality is a literal expression of Divine Personality in the form of a man. God's Word is His ability to communicate this, or to verbalize something He wishes to express.

I disagree.
The Word had always been with God, since the beginning.

I did not say other than this. Where did I claim the Word hasn't always been with God? It's like saying that God has always had the capacity for communication. Of course He does!

What "issues" from this communication is the product of the revelation, and as such, a part of the revelation. The product is one with the media through which God communicated it. The Son is one with the Word that issued from God as the Source of this communication.

Whose teaching is it that Jesus came forth from the mouth of His Father ?

John 1. Jesus was the Word with God in the beginning and also is the Word when he became "flesh" as a man.

 

[Runningman]

The Father is the person, the Spirit is not the person. His Spirit proceeds from Himself. His Spirit is sent from Himself.
Man was not made in the image and likeness of His Spirit, but in Himself
The Father is in heaven. His Spirit can be put upon others so that they can do the same things the Father can do.
They can have the power, wisdom and knowledge to know and do as He does. His Spirit can be given in measure to others or without limit as was given to Jesus.
The Father is the person, His spirit is not.

Yet isn't the Father called God and isn't God holy and a Spirit? That's where I get the Father is the Holy Spirit, but it's just they often confuse the Holy Spirit for a third person and He isn't. Holy Spirit is just another name for the Father often times. That's what I believe anyway, but this is a common Biblical Unitarian belief.

Yes they also don't correctly understand that a holy spirit is also a thing, not a person. I can have a holy spirit or a spirit of holiness and it be a thing, yet I can also be a temple of the Holy Spirit.

A spirit of this or that in scripture often isn't an actual person, but it can be. There can be a spirit of truth, a spirit of wisdom, spirit of the Father, spirit of the Son, spirit of Jesus, spirit of Christ, spirit of glory, and most of these are not an actual person. So I agree with you in a sense on this point.

 

[LeviR]

Yet isn't the Father called God and isn't God holy and a Spirit? That's where I get the Father is the Holy Spirit, but it's just they often confuse the Holy Spirit for a third person and He isn't. Holy Spirit is just another name for the Father often times. That's what I believe anyway, but this is a common Biblical Unitarian belief.

Yes they also don't correctly understand that a holy spirit is also a thing, not a person. I can have a holy spirit or a spirit of holiness and it be a thing, yet I can also be a temple of the Holy Spirit.

A spirit of this or that in scripture often isn't an actual person, but it can be. There can be a spirit of truth, a spirit of wisdom, spirit of the Father, spirit of the Son, spirit of Jesus, spirit of Christ, spirit of glory, and most of these are not an actual person. So I agree with you in a sense on this point.

I believe man was made in the image and likeness of God when he was formed from the ground. Then God breathed into man the breath of life.

Gen 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

What did God form from the dust of the ground?

What became a living soul with the breath of life?

What is made in the image and likeness of God?

 

[Free]

I was curious as to why you claimed I said Jesus was not the son of God until born from the dead because I had clearly said he was.

I highlighted the relevant bits. What don't you understand?

He was first called son of the living God when he was born of Mary. He was never referred as such before that.

However, we do find the prophecy of his being born in scripture.
When the promised seed had come, he was born of Mary. Born a Jewish man and son of Abraham.
There was the first fulfillment of him when he was born of Mary.
And as Paul says in Acts, there was another fulfillment of the promise when Jesus was born from the dead.

Of course.

When we read a sentence in either English or Greek, we need to consider the context. We don’t pick out only parts of the sentence and leave the rest as a way to “prove” something.

But you do it... Besides, that isn't what I did.

It seems you ignore the context of the sentence where Paul declares Jesus to be the son of God.

Your claim is that Paul was simply informing us that Jesus was the son of God from all eternity.

But you ignore the rest of what he says. He says that Jesus was declared to be the son of God with power by the spirit of holiness when he was raised from the dead.

No, I ignored no context. The title "Son of God" is an implicit claim to deity, and the Jews understood this, as I pointed out. Paul was saying that Jesus's resurrection proves that Jesus was who he said he was.

Regarding the Spirit of holiness, M. R. Vincent states:

"Spirit of holiness

In contrast with according to the flesh. The reference is not to the Holy Spirit, who is nowhere designated by this phrase, but to the spirit of Christ as the seat of the divine nature belonging to His person. As God is spirit, the divine nature of Christ is spirit, and its characteristic quality is holiness."

Of course, that is just one view. Some do believe it to be a reference to the Holy Spirit, but I agree with Vincent that that doesn't seem to fit the context.

Paul is saying that when Jesus was born again from the dead by the Spirit, he was with power.

It refers to the declaration itself--"and was declared to be the Son of God in power"--because of the miracle of the resurrection. That is, the resurrection was the most powerful way to declare who Jesus truly was--the Son of God.

The power he was with when born again, included such things as power over death and power to bring the other sons of God with him when he returns.
When he was first born of Mary, it was in weakness of the flesh and had no power over death in the sense to give eternal life and to therefore fulfill the promise.

So, it’s very simple. Jesus was first born as son of the Highest when born of Mary in the weakness of the mortal flesh. He was then born from the dead with power of eternal life to give to others and fulfill the promise to all the children of the fathers.

It is simple. Jesus preexisted as the Son, the Word, and then became flesh.

 

[LeviR]

I highlighted the relevant bits. What don't you understand?


Of course.


But you do it... Besides, that isn't what I did.


No, I ignored no context. The title "Son of God" is an implicit claim to deity, and the Jews understood this, as I pointed out. Paul was saying that Jesus's resurrection proves that Jesus was who he said he was.

Regarding the Spirit of holiness, M. R. Vincent states:

"Spirit of holiness

In contrast with according to the flesh. The reference is not to the Holy Spirit, who is nowhere designated by this phrase, but to the spirit of Christ as the seat of the divine nature belonging to His person. As God is spirit, the divine nature of Christ is spirit, and its characteristic quality is holiness."

Of course, that is just one view. Some do believe it to be a reference to the Holy Spirit, but I agree with Vincent that that doesn't seem to fit the context.


It refers to the declaration itself--"and was declared to be the Son of God in power"--because of the miracle of the resurrection. That is, the resurrection was the most powerful way to declare who Jesus truly was--the Son of God.


It is simple. Jesus preexisted as the Son, the Word, and then became flesh.

The term son of God means you are God?
I suppose all of Jesus’ brethren are God too.
I don’t think God has brothers.

I don’t read anywhere that son of God means you are God. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.

 

[Free]

Runningman
To speak in the third person indicates that someone else is speaking for you.

1Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He [a]should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3And this is eternal life, that they may know You,the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Who is speaking there?

Clearly, Jesus.

Joh 17:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said... (ESV)

It's probably best to just stick with what Scripture states.

Yes, the author was telling us what Jesus said. But what Jesus said was in the third person. They are the actual words Jesus spoke.
Because he speaks in the third person, it sounds as if someone else was speaking for him. And I believe someone else was indeed speaking for him.

We rarely speak in the third person because it sounds funny to do so. But there is a Biblical principle for third person speech which is actually someone else speaking for you.

Jesus had told his disciples that when they were to be dragged into court that they ought not think what they should say because it would be given them what to say by the Spirit of the Father speaking for them.

So here we have the example of someone else actually speaking for the person who would be speaking.

That “person” would be the Spirit of the Father.

So, when Jesus speaks in the third person it is the Spirit of the Father speaking for him John 17:1-5
Unless Jesus was trying to be comedic, and we can just get a chuckle out of it.

You're going beyond Scripture. It was Jesus speaking.

And, despite numerous attempts, you still do not seem to understand that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of your Father, is also known as the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of his Son, and the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Not the least of which is in 1 Peter, where we see that the OT prophets prophesied by the "Spirit of Christ":

1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully,
1Pe 1:11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. (ESV)

 

[Free]

And BTW, the Spirit through Jesus is telling us that the Father is the only true God.

Nope, never tells us that.