Jesus

[st_worm2]

She’s doesn’t have to like tell everyone what the Song is about, it’s like saying the Rose died on the Cross. She’s not like a Whistleblower or something.

But she did choose to tell everyone what her song is about, that's the point.

I would look for Rosicrucian parents and things.

She appears to be a Roman Catholic from birth, not Rosicrucian (as she refers to her Catholic upbringing on her website, including the fact that she entered into the "Sacrament of Marriage" on the 33rd anniversary of her Baptism). Since Rosicrucianism denies that the Lord Jesus went to the Cross (along with most of the other important tenets of the Christian faith), it would seem more that a bit odd for her to write/sing songs about His Passion.

--David

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Yes aig.com. Jesus is God incarnate. How do we arrive at this conclusion?
Items can be different in form but equal to each other. For example; The number "1" is equal to the word "one." I can use either form and you understand what I mean. Now let's look at what John says:

John 1:1-2: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.

The Word was God. The same (The Word) existed in the begining with God. John makes this clear.

John 1:14: The same was in the beginning with God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Word was made flesh. As such, the Word, (being God, and equal to God,) the only begotten of the Father, (a phrase Jesus attributes to Himself as we read in John 3:16) dwelt, or lived with us. Is there any doubt among you this is Jesus?

John 10:30-33: I and my Father are one.
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus states what John said in chapter one. "I and my Father are one." The Jews understood what Jesus meant. That is why they "took up stones." The Jews made it clear, "because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." So the Jews, by their reaction, show that they understood Jesus correctly. Jesus does not deny their understanding. He restates it in verse 38.
Conclusion: Jesus is different in form but equal to the Father in nature. And yes it is possible. I hope this helps. May God bless,
Taz

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
I reread this thread and thought about this:
John begins his Gospel telling us who Jesus revealed Himself to be.
He writes the book to explain, through Jesus' actions, why he believes this.
John finishes the book saying, " . . . We know that His testimony is true."

John 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true."

So John is telling us the truth. Who Jesus is partially rests on the character(s) of the people who tell His life's story. Is John worthy of your trust?
He is worthy of mine. In his letters, and in the Revelation, he remains consistent in who Jesus is. He chose martyrdom over recantation. Are those the actions of a man who believes in what he is teaching? Yes. I believe I can trust John. That makes me believe what he wrote. (Now the Holy Spirit had something to do with it also.) I believe in Jesus being God incarnate because that is how John represents Jesus. I hope this helps. Keep walking everybody. May God bless,
Taz

 

[Who Me]

no one is going to convince me that God is so ignorant that it's impossible for him to inspire men to write down his thoughts accurately. So when a scripture says, "I and the Father are one" and imperfect humans interpret this scripture to mean that Jesus and God are the same person, I'm going to disagree

An interesting selective quoting of scripture.
No reference to where God identifies Jesus as his Son, none to the bible identifying Jesus as equal to God.

 

[follower]

I have never read in scripture where Jesus said he was God. I do understand that there are imperfect human beings who interpret certain scriptures to make it seem the scriptures are saying Jesus is God in the flesh, but I don't follow imperfect human beings personal interpretations of scripture.

Your imperfect being personal interpretation contrary to Scripture
will not convince anyone abiding in union in Christ Jesus
to deny Jesus.
In Scripture, There is more to pay attention to (life and death warnings throughout Scripture)
warning about following yourself
and warning not to personally interpret Scripture yourself.

 

[Vinny37]

I do understand that there are imperfect human beings who interpret certain scriptures to make it seem the scriptures are saying Jesus is God in the flesh, but I don't follow imperfect human beings personal interpretations of scripture.

So the testimony of Jesus Christ respecting himself while on earth reveals that he was not just some wise man nor was he God in the flesh, but he was the perfect human Son of God.

Jesus is God? Yes, No, or Sort of?

I agree with much of your argument: Jesus said much to show that he was truly human under God, and seldom dropped hints of another side. He followed what Wrede called the messianic secret, ie too soon to claim the ambiguous term, messiah. Likewise, I’d say, it was too soon to use deity terms which the Letters explicated. But some hints, with some slow-down words (Jhn.10:34-6—elohim has levels of meaning), and some openness hard to sidetrack (Jhn.8:58), were intentional puzzles, as were parables, marshalling minds. Incidentally Jhn.10:30 may be taken as a oneness of mission, not of being, and too many too soon assume it was a deity claim.

I think that there is a problem with wording the biblical revelation. The traditional doctrine here is built on a number of considerations, not least these texts: [A] Jhn.1:1; Jhn.1:18; [C] Rm.9:5; [D] Tts.2:13; [E] 2 Pt.1:1. Overall the NET scored an A+ in https://archive.org/details/the-wor...-bible-versions-2017-231024/page/120/mode/1up. But we should factor in that the name Jesus, of the man Christ Jesus (1 Tm.2:5), sometimes represented his source, God the son noncarnate, of which Jesus is the carnate mode, the stream, the ray. God the son noncarnate is deity in the unlimited sense of the omnis—omnipresent; omnipotent, etc; Jesus is the deific mode, limited in presence and in power.

We should also factor in that the term θεος has, like many words, a range of meanings, serving differently in different settings. Traditionally English language translators have simply kept the blunt term, God. That leads to the kind of follies which speak of God being woken up (Mt.8:25) and of God being crucified (Moltmann). And before any Apollinaris jumps in and says that he then displayed his deity (v26), let me say that Christ operated as any Christian can operate and get obedience, if the operation is in God’s will—by the spirit (Mt.12:28).

I position myself between those who insist on claiming that Jesus-is-God, and those who deny that God the son is the uncreated eternal second person of deity, of the same essence (ουσια) as the father and the spirit, one name, three persons (Mt.28:19). For the man Christ Jesus, I use an in-between term, deific, to speak of his deificity. I really believe that incarnationalism works with the evidence better than does adoptionism. PS: some like Hillsong end up saying, “You alone are God, Jesus!”, thus denying the father and the spirit as deity persons and tending to Sabellianism.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Maybe the root of the original question is who did Jesus think He was?

Matthew 26:62-66 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

High Priest: Are you the Christ (the Messiah), the Son of God? Specifically, "the Son of God" as opposed a son of God. The high priest knew the difference. Messiah was/is Elohim - God with us. It is a very specific question.

Jesus answer: "Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."

Did the high priest understand what Jesus said?
The high priest tore his clothes and called blasphemy, then called for Jesus' death. This would have been the right thing to do for anyone else. But Jesus was/is who He said He was.
But make no mistake about this: Jesus answered in a way that leaves out all ambiguity. The high priest's reaction proves it.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[follower]

Maybe the root of the original question is who did Jesus think He was?

What do you mean by the original question ? i.e. in this forum, in your lifetime, in this generation or what ?

 

[BB1956]

Your imperfect being personal interpretation contrary to Scripture
will not convince anyone abiding in union in Christ Jesus
to deny Jesus.
In Scripture, There is more to pay attention to (life and death warnings throughout Scripture)
warning about following yourself
and warning not to personally interpret Scripture yourself.

You're not a perfect person either and so you're not infallible in everything you say concerning the scriptures. Myself I will continue to believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, and that Jesus is telling the truth when he says after his resurrection at John 20:17 that he has a Father and God that is his apostles and disciples Father and God. You can reason on the scriptures in some way that he's lying when he says that but I'm not going to agree with you. You and others will continue to speak out against us who believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God but we will continue to believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. But according to you because I'm imperfect and believe Jesus to be the only begotten Son of God, that's a personal interpretation.

 

[donadams]

I have never read in scripture where Jesus said he was God. I do understand that there are imperfect human beings who interpret certain scriptures to make it seem the scriptures are saying Jesus is God in the flesh, but I don't follow imperfect human beings personal interpretations of scripture. That's because no one is going to convince me that God is so ignorant that it's impossible for him to inspire men to write down his thoughts accurately. So when a scripture says, "I and the Father are one" and imperfect humans interpret this scripture to mean that Jesus and God are the same person, I'm going to disagree. I can read no matter how many people say I can't read, and I can see for myself that people are taking this particular scripture out of context to prove there belief. I'm not going to agree when people taking scripture out of context to try to prove what they believe. Now I do understand that people have the right to believe their personal interpretations of scripture, or someone else's personal interpretations, they even have the right to take a scripture out of context but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them.

In scripture some Jews accused Jesus of making himself equal to God, Jesus replied: "Is it not written in your law, 'I said: "you are God's"'? If he called 'gods' those against whom the word God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, I am God's Son?"(John 10:34-36) Here in this scripture Jesus wasn't saying he was equal to God or that he was God, simply because he said he was God's Son.

The scriptures show us that as a son, Jesus ascribed superior authority, knowledge and greatness to his Father. He stated: "This sitting down at my right hand and at my left hand is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father"(Matthew 20:23) "concerning that day or that hour nobody knows, neither that angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father."(Mark 13:32) "The Father is greater than I am."(John 14:28) Jesus acknowledged his Father as his God. Just before his death Jesus cried out: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"(Matthew 27:46) Then after Jesus resurrection, he told Mary Magdalene: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God."(John 20:17)
Finally, in a revelation to the apostle John, Jesus Christ identified himself as the first of God's creations, saying: "These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God."(Revelation 3:14; John 1:14; Colossians 1:15.)

So the testimony of Jesus Christ respecting himself while on earth reveals that he was not just some wise man nor was he God in the flesh, but he was the perfect human Son of God. The record concerning Jesus words and deeds served to establish this truth. Wrote the apostle John: "Jesus performed many other signs also before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name."(John 20:30,31)

Did the father become man? Visit us and redeem us? Did the father descend from heaven in the form of a dove?

Is Jesus an only man?

Who is the Holy Spirit?

 

[donadams]

The Jehovah’s Witnesses, or Mormons and other what is called “Non-Trinitarians”, so the Trinity was made at the Nicene Creed meeting thing, and so any Group that has read the Bible and gone with what Jesus says, they say the 3 are Distinct, that the Trinity is only 1 as a matter of basically which God it is under, or to say all of it is like belonging to God. And to say Jesus is God is something that has been argued for a long Time, but that they have decided many Times at several important Meetings about Christianity.

Apostolic council of nicea!

 

[BB1956]

Did the father become man? Visit us and redeem us? Did the father descend from heaven in the form of a dove?

Is Jesus an only man?

Who is the Holy Spirit?

After Jesus was resurrected from the dead he said that he had a Father and God that was his apostles Father and God at John 20:17
and it was the only begotten Son of God who is the Word that became flesh/human.(John 1:1,14) So Jesus came to humanity as a perfect sinless human, in the likeness of the first Adam who was created a perfect sinless human.

 

[Josef]

I have never read in scripture where Jesus said he was God. I do understand that there are imperfect human beings who interpret certain scriptures to make it seem the scriptures are saying Jesus is God in the flesh, but I don't follow imperfect human beings personal interpretations of scripture. That's because no one is going to convince me that God is so ignorant that it's impossible for him to inspire men to write down his thoughts accurately. So when a scripture says, "I and the Father are one" and imperfect humans interpret this scripture to mean that Jesus and God are the same person, I'm going to disagree. I can read no matter how many people say I can't read, and I can see for myself that people are taking this particular scripture out of context to prove there belief. I'm not going to agree when people taking scripture out of context to try to prove what they believe. Now I do understand that people have the right to believe their personal interpretations of scripture, or someone else's personal interpretations, they even have the right to take a scripture out of context but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them.

In scripture some Jews accused Jesus of making himself equal to God, Jesus replied: "Is it not written in your law, 'I said: "you are God's"'? If he called 'gods' those against whom the word God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, I am God's Son?"(John 10:34-36) Here in this scripture Jesus wasn't saying he was equal to God or that he was God, simply because he said he was God's Son.

The scriptures show us that as a son, Jesus ascribed superior authority, knowledge and greatness to his Father. He stated: "This sitting down at my right hand and at my left hand is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father"(Matthew 20:23) "concerning that day or that hour nobody knows, neither that angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father."(Mark 13:32) "The Father is greater than I am."(John 14:28) Jesus acknowledged his Father as his God. Just before his death Jesus cried out: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"(Matthew 27:46) Then after Jesus resurrection, he told Mary Magdalene: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God."(John 20:17)
Finally, in a revelation to the apostle John, Jesus Christ identified himself as the first of God's creations, saying: "These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God."(Revelation 3:14; John 1:14; Colossians 1:15.)

So the testimony of Jesus Christ respecting himself while on earth reveals that he was not just some wise man nor was he God in the flesh, but he was the perfect human Son of God. The record concerning Jesus words and deeds served to establish this truth. Wrote the apostle John: "Jesus performed many other signs also before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name."(John 20:30,31)

Hey All,
Jesus is eternally the only begotten Son of God. We should all be able to agree with that. That's Jesus 101.

But what does that mean?
He was as conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

So that is different.
Jesus is a man through Mary.
Through the Holy Spirit, that makes Jesus more than just a man.
Even the skeptic has to agree that no other man has been so conceived.
We have to acknowledge what the Bible says as true.
The Bible tells us that right from His earthly beginning, Jesus is more than just a
man.

Next, how do we explain Jesus' having the attributes of God yet not be God?

John 1:3-4 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Only God has the ability to create from nothing. All things were made by Him, speaking of Jesus, making Him pre-existent also. Jesus must pre-exist all things to be the maker of all things. That is just logical. This makes Him more than just a man.

Jesus also has the power over life. He raised Himself and others from the dead.

John 2:18-21 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
But he spake of the temple of his body.

No "just a man" can raise Himself and others from the dead. Only God has the power of life. Jesus has, and did exercise this power. This makes Him more than just a man.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Do you notice?
It's a single, "the throne."
But both God and the Lamb occupy it.
There is only one throne.
Only God can occupy the throne.
Jesus, the Lamb of God, co-occupies the throne.
No mere man, not even an angel would think themselves worthy.
Jesus is worthy.
Jesus is more than just a man.

So a quick summary:
Jesus is conceived of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is the creator of all things.
Jesus has power over death.
Jesus is co-equal to the Father as they both occupy the same throne.
And let us not forget Jesus said that He and the Father are one. (Notice the plural singular.) We saw that in Genesis 1, didn't we?

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

The Bible, from the first chapter to the last, is consistent in this plural singular definition of the one God.
We see the Holy Spirit on the face of the water in Genesis 1.
We have Jesus conceived of the Holy Spirit, into the a man through Mary.

All things considered, Jesus is more than just a man.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[donadams]

After Jesus was resurrected from the dead he said that he had a Father and God that was his apostles Father and God at John 20:17
and it was the only begotten Son of God who is the Word that became flesh/human.(John 1:1,14) So Jesus came to humanity as a perfect sinless human, in the likeness of the first Adam who was created a perfect sinless human.

Was Jesus God with a divine nature?
Thks

 

[donadams]

The most holy trinity is a sacred mystery!

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Only God may lawfully receive adoration and worship!

Heb 1:6
Matt 2:11
Matt 4:10
Matt 8:2
Matt 9:18
Matt 14:33
Matt 15:25
John 9:38


Only God can change the commandments!

Matt 5:21-22

Only God can by His own will and command of His voice work miracles! (Men must implore God’s power like Moses parting the sea, or the apostles working miracles by the name of the Holy child Jesus.)

Matt 8:26
2 pet 1:1-3

Jesus eternal!
Jn 17:5
Heb 13:8

God incarnate / God becomes man!
Jn 1:1-14
1 Tim 3:16


Only God is the source of life, Jesus is the life! Jesus is the resurrection!
1 Jn 1:2
Jn 10:10
Jn 11:25
Jn 20:21-23
Jn 14:6
Eph 2:1 & 5

Only God can be the source of grace and forgive sins, Jesus the source of grace, forgiveness of sins.

Jn 1:16-17

Unity of Christian faith includes the trinity and the divinity of Christ!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1 Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

2 cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

The most holy trinity is a sacred mystery!
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Dogma (thee faith revealed by Christ and taught by Holy mother church)

The nature of God is incomprehensible to man:

Only God can shine as the sun!

Matt 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

All Glory to God!

 

[donadams]

Jesus Christ is true God and true man!

No mere man cannot be eternal!
Christ is eternal! Heb 13:8

No mere man cannot be the “holy son of God”!
Christ is the “holy son of God”! Lk 1:35

No mere man can be holy without God’s grace!
Jesus Christ is holy! Lk 1:35

No mere man has authority (in his own person) to rebuke the winds and the sea!
Jesus Christ has this authority! Matt 8:26-27 (they marveled how can a man do this)

No mere man can be the resurrection!
Jesus Christ is the resurrection! Jn 11:25

No mere man can be the source of Life!
Jesus Christ is the life! Jn 10:10 Jn 14:6 eph 2:1 & 2:5

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
What he said.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

PS. We agree!? Maybe the world is coming to an end, eh Mr. Adams. JK?

 

[donadams]

Hey All,
What he said.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

PS. We agree!? Maybe the world is coming to an end, eh Mr. Adams. JK?

Lol!

 

[BB1956]

Was Jesus God with a divine nature?

The only begotten Son of God came to mankind in the likeness of the first Adam, and I haven't found any scriptures that teach me that the first Adam was of divine nature. So I don't agree that when the only begotten Son of God became human he had divine nature, but instead he had a sinless human nature because the first Adam wasn't of divine nature. If Jesus came with divine nature while he was a human being then he came to mankind more than the likeness of the first Adam.
1 Peter 3:18 teaches me that Jesus had to die, divesting himself of the body of flesh so that he could receive the change to “divine nature,” by being resurrected “in the spirit.”
2 Peter 1:4b says regarding Jesus Christ apostles and disciples that, “Through these you may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.” And 2 Peter 1:4 says, "If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together." These scriptures teach me that when the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ who are resurrected to heaven they will be given the divine nature that Jesus Christ was given at his resurrection.
I'm not going to deny the only begotten Son of God came as a sinless human, meaning he came with sinless human nature like the first Adam was when God created the first Adam. What we have to remember is that the first Adam, meaning the first sinless Adam was of earth but the last sinless Adam was from heaven. The only begotten son of God was first a spirit person before becoming a sinless human. He had lived for billions upon billions of years as a spirit being, even before the physical universe was created.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
We can agree that Jesus was like Adam in that He was flesh and bone. But Jesus was born, not created, like Adam. So "likeness" doesn't mean exactly the same. I believe we can agree with that as well.


"These scriptures teach me that when the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ who are resurrected to heaven they will be given the divine nature that Jesus Christ was given at his resurrection." Quote from BB1956

If Jesus doesn't receive His divine nature until after the resurrection, how does He raise himself to from the dead?
How can He tell the thief beside Him:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Under what authority would a human be able to say this?
I believe we can both agree that neither of us has this authority.
Neither did Adam.
So Jesus was/is more than just a human.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz