Jews and the Trinity

[Pard]

The Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, & God the Spirit) can be proven with the Old Testament (though the New Testament does make it clearer). First, many OT scriptures reference God in the plural. I'll just list a few of the full texts and leave you to look up the other ones. (Bold = evidence of plural God)

Gen. 1:26 "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."'

(We also see this in Gen. 2:22 and 11:7)

Isiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"

And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"'

(We also see this in Isiah 48:16 and 61:1)

The very first line of the Bible reads: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Now, the translation confusion is rather simple. The word God is singular in our English translation, but if we go to the Hebrew translation we see it is actually the plural word for God, i.e. Gods (Actually, the word is "Elohim" in Hebrew and it refers to more than two Gods).

How do we know that there are not just multiple gods? (This is just for the sake of making it known, we all know their is only one God!) We turn to Deuteronomy 6:4 and it explicitly tells us that the Lord of Israel is the ONE God.

It would appear that there is a contradiction in the Tanakh and until Christ came along and the NT clarified this that contradiction remained, but this is not so! Genesis 1:2 reads: "The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. "It says "Spirit of God", we as Christians know this as the Holy Spirit, our gift from God for accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior. So there we have it, God the Father was at least accompanied by one other form, God the Spirit (And we know from the Hebrew word "Elohim" that there has to be MORE than 2 so...).

Next we go to the very next line, again! Genesis 1:3 reads: "Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. " You see, the line that says "God said", that means Jesus. How do we know this? Because Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:1-3). Whenever we see the Lord speaking int he Old Testament, we as Christians know that it is Christ who is speaking, because He is the Word. But, how would the Jews know? We turn again to Isiah for that,

Isiah 48:1 "'Come near me and listen to this:
"From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there."
And now the Sovereign Lord has sent me,
with his Spirit.'"

We now see there is three forms of God (and all from the OT alone!).

So, I guess my question is: Since I can prove that there is some plural aspect to God from the OT, and I can show that there is at least three forms of God, did the Jews also see this, and did they believe in the Trinity or some form of plural God forms?

 

[jasoncran]

they do.

 

[logical bob]

Fascinating post Pard, thanks.

Who among the gods is like you, O LORD ? Who is like you— majestic in holiness, awesome in glory, working wonders? Exodus 15:11

"On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn—both men and animals—and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD. Exodus 12:12

God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods Psalm 82:1

There are definite hints of polytheism in quite a few places in the Old Testament.

 

[Mike]

Fascinating post Pard, thanks.

Who among the gods is like you, O LORD ? Who is like you— majestic in holiness, awesome in glory, working wonders? Exodus 15:11

"On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn—both men and animals—and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD. Exodus 12:12

God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods Psalm 82:1

There are definite hints of polytheism in quite a few places in the Old Testament.

Bob, when the Bible speaks to other "gods" it is referring to false gods. Some of them are idols made of wood or stone and some are from observation by men such as the sun and stars that pagans worshiped. To that end, some kings were looked upon by men as gods. But Isaiah 48 distinguishes the Son and the Spirit as part of His Triune nature as fully God.

16 "Come near me and listen to this:
"From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there."
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me,
with his Spirit.

17 This is what the LORD says—
your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
who teaches you what is best for you,
who directs you in the way you should go.

18 If only you had paid attention to my commands,
your peace would have been like a river,
your righteousness like the waves of the sea."

God never acknowledges divinity among the "other gods".

Excellent post, Pard!

 

[jasoncran]

yes, that is an excellent post.

 

[logical bob]

Hi Mike. I realise the common interpretation is that the OT is talking about false gods, and in many cases I agree that it is. But in the Exodus verse I quoted, God is intending to judge the gods of Egypt. Why would to try to judge someone who doesn't exist? I don't think yours is always the most natural reading.

Similarly in Psalm 82 it's not obvious why God would sit in an assembly with other gods that don't exist. The assembly of the gods was actually a common theme in older religions from Canaan, Ugarit and Babylon.

I'm not saying that the Bible wants you to worship other gods - it's very clear that you shouldn't. And it does have some strongly monotheistic passages, as Pard quoted. But it also has some that seem to take the view that other peoples have their gods and that these gods so exist, but that the God of the Israelites is superior to them. Henotheism is the word for this.

There's an interesting argument around that Genesis 1 is essentially a rewrite of the Babylonian creation story recast to feature just one God. The original readers, if this is correct, would have recognised the allusion and understood the message that the God of Israel is superior to the Babylonian pantheon.

I guess all I'm saying is that the OT is a complex set of writings and they're not a total fresh start. They contain references to and echoes of earlier beliefs.

 

[Mike]

Sorry, Bob, but you're wrong. There are no other gods besides the One Triune God other than the false gods that I mentioned. You're making false inferences of scripture. In the verses that you cited and others in which speak to "other gods", they are speaking to false gods (idols and man-made gods).

Here's a link to a site that speaks at length to this issue and specifically addresses Psalm 82.

http://thriceholy.net/othergodsf.html

Mike

 

[stovebolts]

Elohim is plural because it denotes the head of the pantheon, where as El is singular and is used accordingly. I do not say this to deny the trinity, but rather to say there are better ways to support the trinity (which I support).

Actually, the word El and Elohim first appears from the Ancient Near East and is found in some of the oldest writings known from Sumeria from which Abram left. By the way, these writings pre-date the Hebrew writings and include the descriptor El or Elohim and do not reference YHVH.

As far as Exodus, YHVH is revealing himself as YHVH, where he was previously known to the Hebrew patriarchs as El Shadai (God Almighty Ex 6:3). It is not that the Hebrews have never heard the name YHVH, but rather, they had never experienced the attribute of YHVH, only that of El Shaddai (The great shepherd).

This is what I love about our Lord, is that he is always unfolding and revealing his truth to us, but only as we are ready to receive it. As far as the Exodus account, YHVH was revealing himself not only to the Israelites, but to the Egyptians as well as the other nations for the purpose that YHVH’s wonders would be multiplied. (11:9).

While we now understand that the Egyptians worshiped false gods through our New Testament lens,(Romans 1:25) we must understand that the ancients did not share this view. We must also understand who Pharoh represented and his relationship with Amon Ra in this great cosmic battle. It was through YHVH’s mighty wonders that YHVH proved to every tribe and every nation reaching as far as the land of Canaan that YHVH was the true Elohim and was above all other gods, thus each wonder targeted a specific deity within the Egyptian pantheon and YHVH was champion in every instance.

This cosmic battle also shattered the idea that specific gods only reigned supreem within a particular geographic area for as Jacob said, “Surely YHVH is in this place, but I did not realize it! (Gen 28:16) The understanding and affirmation that YHVH is the great Elohim is also echo’d in psalm 95:3 For YHVH is a great Elohim and a great King above all Elohim which carries the theological thought that YHVH is not only above the other gods, but that he is not confined to a geographical location as shown through his wonders in Egypt.

We’ve often heard that God meets us where we’re at… I believe that he met the ancients where they were at much in the same manner that Paul while at Mars Hill did not deny the other gods, but rather showed them the true God through their unknown god.

Grace and peace.

 

[logical bob]

Stovebolts - a very astute post, thanks. You said a lot of what I wanted to get at but you said it much clearer.

Mike - perhaps you get defensive because it's me! All I'm saying is that some of the OT writers appear to have thought that other gods existed. And evidently at least one Christain agrees with me.

 

[Mysteryman]

Fascinating post Pard, thanks.

Who among the gods is like you, O LORD ? Who is like you— majestic in holiness, awesome in glory, working wonders? Exodus 15:11

"On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn—both men and animals—and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD. Exodus 12:12

God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods Psalm 82:1

There are definite hints of polytheism in quite a few places in the Old Testament.

Hi Bob

These verses are talking about men who make themselves gods.

 

[stovebolts]

Hervey,
While these verses speak to how Pharoh had made himself a god, it also speaks of animals which were perceived as gods...

"On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn—both men and animals—and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD. Exodus 12:12

Some animals were percieved as gods. Ever look to see the two animals on Pharoh's head piece? A falcon and a cobra. Both were considered deity, as was a particular bull. This is why scriptures states in the above verse, and animals, and is why Paul writes in Romans, 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever!

I can dig up OT reference that attest and frame Paul's commentary of Exodus (Shemot) from not only the Torah, but the TANAKH if you need to see them too...

Regards.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hervey,
While these verses speak to how Pharoh had made himself a god, it also speaks of animals which were perceived as gods...

"On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn—both men and animals—and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD. Exodus 12:12

Some animals were percieved as gods. Ever look to see the two animals on Pharoh's head piece? A falcon and a cobra. Both were considered deity, as was a particular bull. This is why scriptures states in the above verse, and animals, and is why Paul writes in Romans, 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever!

I can dig up OT reference that attest and frame Paul's commentary of Exodus (Shemot) from not only the Torah, but the TANAKH if you need to see them too...

Regards.

Hi Jeff

No, no need, as you are correct. But keeping things in perspective to that which Bob commented upon. The mention of the other gods are indeed all false gods, both men and animals. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Pharaoh use animals as a resemblance of a god ?

 

[stovebolts]

Hello Hervey,
Keeping things in perspective often requires to keep things in their proper context. While it be true that these other 'gods' were / are indeed false gods as Paul states, you would be hard pressed to have told that to the Egyptians, let alone anyone else in the Ancient Near East including the Hebrews perhaps even Moses, for YHVH even commanded, Exodus 20:3 You shall have no other elohim before me. For me, this shows that YHVH was meeting the people where they were at as he began the slow and patient task of transforming his most precious creation, mankind.

As far as Pharaoh using animals as resemblance of gods, it was more of a cultural ideology which stemmed mainly from Heliopolis which by the way would have been where Moses was educated. I won't claim to fully understand Egyptian theology as I've spent a pretty good chunk of time trying to learn about it, but it's slippery and very complex as the Egyptians were great thinkers as attested by the writings and structures they left behind.

Take for example the falcon, which was on Pharoh's headpiece. The falcon would be considered a sacred animal because it was Horus incarnate, much in the same way that Pharaoh was considered a god incarnate closely associated with Horus.

In other words, the falcon was Horus incarnate, not simply a resemblance of Horus.

Does that help?

As far as the Jews and the Trinity, I may be mistaken, but I thought that I read a Jewish article several months ago (and I'm a little groggy here) where the Aleph, which consists of two yud's and a vav equalled 111, which represents 3 (Trinity) but I can't seem to find the article. Should have bookmarked it...

http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/kabbal ... -Aleph.htm

 

[Mysteryman]

Hello Hervey,
Keeping things in perspective often requires to keep things in their proper context. While it be true that these other 'gods' were / are indeed false gods as Paul states, you would be hard pressed to have told that to the Egyptians, let alone anyone else in the Ancient Near East including the Hebrews perhaps even Moses, for YHVH even commanded, Exodus 20:3 You shall have no other elohim before me. For me, this shows that YHVH was meeting the people where they were at as he began the slow and patient task of transforming his most precious creation, mankind.

As far as Pharaoh using animals as resemblance of gods, it was more of a cultural ideology which stemmed mainly from Heliopolis which by the way would have been where Moses was educated. I won't claim to fully understand Egyptian theology as I've spent a pretty good chunk of time trying to learn about it, but it's slippery and very complex as the Egyptians were great thinkers as attested by the writings and structures they left behind.

Take for example the falcon, which was on Pharoh's headpiece. The falcon would be considered a sacred animal because it was Horus incarnate, much in the same way that Pharaoh was considered a god incarnate closely associated with Horus.

In other words, the falcon was Horus incarnate, not simply a resemblance of Horus.

Does that help?

As far as the Jews and the Trinity, I may be mistaken, but I thought that I read a Jewish article several months ago where the Aleph, which consists of two vav's and an Aleph equalled 111, which represents 3 (Trinity) but I can't seem to find the article. Should have bookmarked it...

Hi Jeff

As we know , after Israel came out of Egypt , they retained some of their old ways. We don't need to go into detail here. But on the way to the promise land, they made images of false gods. I don't recall them using real animals . Exodus 20:4 and 5

4) - Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness in heaven above, or that in the earth beneath, or that in the water under the earth"

5) - "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God etc "

They revernced certain animals that resembles their other gods. Also for instance the - sun god. So when the Lord God said no other gods, he meant none whatsoever > men, animal nor celestial.

 

[stovebolts]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Pharaoh use animals as a resemblance of a god ?

Ok, so here you are talking about the egyptians which is in line with our conversation.

as we know , after Israel came out of Egypt , they retained some of their old ways. We don't need to go into detail here. But on the way to the promise land, they made images of false gods. I don't recall them using real animals . Exodus 20:4 and 5

Here you slide the discussion into Isreal mid conversation as if we've been talking about Isreal all along, then you go on to summerize (They being Israel)

They revernced certain animals that resembles their other gods. Also for instance the - sun god. So when the Lord God said no other gods, he meant none whatsoever > men, animal nor celestial.

You just jumped from talking about the Pharoah to the Israelites as it pertains to "resemlence".

In the future, I would ask that you stay on topic or at least end a thought before amalgamating it with something analagous, as this style of discussion throws me and is hard to follow. I communicate best with a rythem of start, change, stop before starting another communication cycle.

But anyway, I suppose I've missed your point and I don't see how it adds to what we were talking about (Egyptian Gods) unless your trying to say that the golden calf resembled a deity in the same manner the image of the falcon on Pharoah's headpiece resembled horus, who was visible through the Falcon?

What does this have to do with the trinity and the Jews anyway?...

 

[Mysteryman]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Pharaoh use animals as a resemblance of a god ?

Ok, so here you are talking about the egyptians which is in line with our conversation.

as we know , after Israel came out of Egypt , they retained some of their old ways. We don't need to go into detail here. But on the way to the promise land, they made images of false gods. I don't recall them using real animals . Exodus 20:4 and 5

Here you slide the discussion into Isreal mid conversation as if we've been talking about Isreal all along, then you go on to summerize (They being Israel)

They revernced certain animals that resembles their other gods. Also for instance the - sun god. So when the Lord God said no other gods, he meant none whatsoever > men, animal nor celestial.

You just jumped from talking about the Pharoah to the Israelites as it pertains to "resemlence".

In the future, I would ask that you stay on topic or at least end a thought before amalgamating it with something analagous, as this style of discussion throws me and is hard to follow. I communicate best with a rythem of start, change, stop before starting another communication cycle.

But anyway, I suppose I've missed your point and I don't see how it adds to what we were talking about (Egyptian Gods) unless your trying to say that the golden calf resembled a deity in the same manner the image of the falcon on Pharoah's headpiece resembled horus, who was visible through the Falcon?

What does this have to do with the trinity and the Jews anyway?...

Hi Jeff

I am going to answer you in the best way I know how. As to whether or not you understand or can't reason along with me, is still yet to be seen.

The OP made erroneous suggestions. Pard explained what he believed from a perspective of a Christian. However, everyone in the OT and especially Israel, only knew what God revealed unto them. As a Christian we have added information that has been revealed unto the Church. What one claims that they saw in the OT, is speculation at best. The only thing we know, pertaining to those who lived in the OT times, was what was written, showing us what they were told by God, and what they believed. God told them to have no other gods before him, the One God. That he was a jealous God, and that he did not want them to bow down to strange gods and idols.

They knew of the coming Messiah, only after it was revealed unto them. Prior to that, they knew nothing of a coming messiah. Many christians try reading the OT with NT insight. And many times many christians read the OT with the mind set of a babe in the Word. It is always a faulty way in which to read the scriptures of the OT. One should always keep in mind, that those who lived in and during the OT, only knew what God revealed unto them, and his desire for them to follow His ways.

As time went by, God revealed more and more unto the Prophets. Which then was given in certain times and certain circumstances. Because of the mind set of Israel, God would only allow two elders and the children of Israel to enter into the promise land. This came about because of disobedience.

Even today, the church which has been given more information/understanding about God and His will, is still being disobedient to the will of God.

God is one and God has not changed from the OT . He is the same God of the OT, as he is of the NT. God has revealed more understanding, but more understanding does not change God, because God does not change. We just grow more in our understanding of God. Man still wants to redefine who and what God is. Even though God never changes.

I pray you receive something from my reply here. Bless

 

[Mysteryman]

Hervey,
While these verses speak to how Pharoh had made himself a god, it also speaks of animals which were perceived as gods...

"On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn—both men and animals—and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD. Exodus 12:12

Some animals were percieved as gods. Ever look to see the two animals on Pharoh's head piece? A falcon and a cobra. Both were considered deity, as was a particular bull. This is why scriptures states in the above verse, and animals, and is why Paul writes in Romans, 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever!

I can dig up OT reference that attest and frame Paul's commentary of Exodus (Shemot) from not only the Torah, but the TANAKH if you need to see them too...

Regards.

Hi Jeff:

I wanted to bring this up , but talked myself out of it the other day. So I am going to attempt to make mention of it now.

Bob mentioned psalm 82 , and I believe that he was infering verse one. But IMHO verses two and six actually answers the question best. Verse 2 - "How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked". The mention of "gods" in the plural, is talking about men/persons. The same with verse six. Which is the reference made by Jesus in John 10:34.

If one reads Gen. 3:5 knowing good and evil, will be as gods. The plural "gods" is in reference to man or men who think that they know equally or greater than the one true God. Psalm 82 and in verse 7 - "But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes". Having other gods deals with the vain imaginations of men. It does not matter which form they portray them as. It is still the vain imaginations of men.

When the vain imagination of man/men brings about a god, portrayed from an image other than the One true God, it is idolatry. God is singular = One ---------- other gods is plural = idolatry

Exodus 12:12 - "gods", in the plural - "gods of Egypt" = men , in their vain imagination.

Exodus 32:8 mentions only one molten calf, but in this verse , God explains it as "gods" in the plural. Because it is another god, made by the vain imagination of man/men. This act means that they made themselves gods. Not just a molten image, but themselves . Thus declaring the many images of a god or gods. Thus, they themselves made themselves gods. Now keep reading chapter 32 of Exodus and you will notice the anger of the Lord God. About Three thousand died by the sword, and God plagued the people.

Moses found grace in the sight of God. But God made sure that Moses should not see His face, for no man has seen God at any time, nor could they.

Men make themselves gods and put images that they attach to themselves. As I am sure you know, idolatry is taken seriously in the eyes of the One true God.

 

[stovebolts]

Exodus 12:12 - "gods", in the plural - "gods of Egypt" = men , in their vain imagination.

While I understand your reasoning and would agree with many instances elswhere, in the case of the Magicians in the Exodus account, I disagree.

Ex 8:18 When the magicians attempted to bring forth gnats by their secret arts, they could not. So there were gnats on people and on animals. 8:19 The magicians said to Pharaoh, “It is the finger of God!†But Pharaoh’s heart remained hard, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had predicted.

I read vs. 18 as the magicians were expecting, through the authority of their gods to be able to bring forth gnats. Up until the gnats, the magicians were able to replicate YHVH's wonders until YHVH took that authority away from their gods which forced them recognize YHVH.

Man cannot turn water into blood (7:22), or bring frogs from the Nile (8:7), nor did the magicians take credit of these things for it was through the hand of their god's which for the sake of argument we could call demons, which allowed them to do so; for there was a Nile God and a fertility God who took the form of a frog according to Egyptian theology which Paul outlines in Romans 1:25.

Demons are a very real force Hervey, and they take on many different forms as they draw humanity further away from living the lives God created us to live. Yes Hervey, it is all idolatry and the lie of Satan is to believe it's all just vain imagination for even the magicians recognized the authority of YHVH because they had an encounter with YHVH through the cosmic battle which was starting to unfold before their eyes, and this lesson sets the stage for what occurs later in the narrative (10:7)

 

[Logos57]

From the Old Testament itself I believe any one can come to the conclusion of the Trinity/Godhead (Acts 17:29; Colossians 2:9).

First we see in Genesis 18:1-3, three men who came to Abraham where refer to as God at the same time. We see that while two members of the Godhead when on to Sodom, the LORD stay with Abraham (Genesis 18:22-23). Now we see that the two men as angels, in the next chapter than we see them both as the LORD in Genesis 19:24. I believe God reveal Himself openly as a Triune Godhead here in the passage of the Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.


Then we see David referring to God the Son as his God/Lord but said He had a God/Lord. This refers to two members of the Godhead.
Psalms 45:6-7
6) Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7) Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (see Hebrews 1:8-9)

Psalms 110:1
The LORD saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Jesus Himself referred to this in Matthew 22:43-45.

I know many people will say we see two separate God(s). But this is not the case to clarify this we need to look at a New Testament verse.
I Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every men is Christ; and head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Any man in a good marriage knows he is not superior to his wife he is just put in authority over her, just as God the father isn’t superior to the Son, He just has authority over His Son, just as any good son would allow his father to yield authority over him in this life. So for this reason Jesus can call the Father, My God (John 20:17) yet still be God.

Then thirdly a passage I would just like to thank others here on ChristianForums, for
Because I hadn’t notice it before but really enjoyed it..
Isaiah 48:16-17
16) Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret form the beginning; from the time that it was there am I: and now the LORD GOD, and His Spirit, hath sent Me.
17) Thus saith the LORD thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

I really believe that thee four passages alone strongly indicate a Godhead in the Old Testament.