Job and the purpose of suffering.

[stovebolts]

I've always enjoyed the book of Job, and I've studied it from several perspectives. Recently, I got a good Jewish commentary on Job and it's helped me to really see things that I've never really been able to see before.
However, it's not like they outright tell you, but one can begin to connect the dots.

So, lets look at Job, but more specifically, lets look at his character. I'll be quoting from the ASV

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil.

Job 1:8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.

Sounds pretty good huh? But what character description is missing? I think that if we find that missing character, we'll begin to realize why God allows bad things to happen to good people.

 

[leftyatbest]

I expected you would explain it in more detail rather than an open ended question.

 

[stovebolts]

That's because it's not a quiz with right and wrong, true or false answers... It's a discussion about life and relationships, and honestly, we can learn a lot about ourselves through the lens of Job.

 

[handy]

Given the description of Job, that he was " a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil" and that there were "none like him"...is it possible that Job was a type of Christ and that his sufferings were comparable to the sufferings Christ in that Satan tries to get the "suffering servant" to go against God's will.

But, just as Job remained steadfast and didn't allow Satan to turn him against God, nor did Jesus, we can all know, within our suffering and persecutions here on earth, that we too can remain steadfast and ultimately reap the reward.

Thing is...we often don't. So many testimonies of "I was once a believer, then the bad times came...."

 

[stovebolts]

Good thoughts Dora, but even when God describes Job's character, what characteristic is missing? This also gives us insight into how Satan sees the world, but that's really a side topic..

We can see this missing charactaristic, as well as how Job views the world around him by his first reply to his friends that sat in grief covered in dust with their friend for 7 days.

 

[lovely]

I'm not sure what the answer is. I think Job's faith in what God says, and his knowledge of who God is, encourages him to have the integrity to hold fast and accept God's will because He has an eternal perspective based on God's word....he knows that his Redeemer lives and that though he may die he shall see God.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Leviathan, and Behemoth.

L. & B. - Understood as Job's Fleshly PRIDE, and his tendency to do thing in his OWN strength instead of being "Poor in spirit" before God were the issues that God was after IN Job when He turned His "tool" loose on him, and hopefully corrected the situations satisfactorily.

The "church" as a whole doesn't generally seem to see ANY "redemptive process" going on in the book at all.

 

[jasoncran]

I've always enjoyed the book of Job, and I've studied it from several perspectives. Recently, I got a good Jewish commentary on Job and it's helped me to really see things that I've never really been able to see before.
However, it's not like they outright tell you, but one can begin to connect the dots.

So, lets look at Job, but more specifically, lets look at his character. I'll be quoting from the ASV

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil.

Job 1:8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.

Sounds pretty good huh? But what character description is missing? I think that if we find that missing character, we'll begin to realize why God allows bad things to happen to good people.

faithful. he up to that point never had his faith tested.

 

[leftyatbest]

I get no inspiration from the book of Job. He was the subject of a bet between god and satan. Not only that, the all knowing god knew what the outcome would be before hand so the bet was pointless. As I see it the story of Jobs suffering wasn't a test, but god just wanting to be cruel for no reason.

Luke 16:15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your heart; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God."

Pslams 139:4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.

Any "tests" from god are pointless. He knows what the outcome would be if he tests you even before he does. Not only that, but now god is making bets with the devil, who would have evil intentions which god would have been aware of. So now god is allowing satan to cause suffering to prove to him Job is faithful? why does god feel the need to prove anything to satan, let alone ALLOW satan to have his way for any reason.

 

[jasoncran]

its not for himself but to show us that he knows us so well that even while we me sinned and commited crimes to god that he is willing to forgive us.

and also to show us how evil we are. christ in is doesnt make us any more good. dead men dont do to good deeds.

what i mean by this is that we have been changed when we come to the cross but not perfected all at once. that change comes through santification. we can never be so holy and pure that we are like god.

and kindly tone down you rhetoric about or LORD.

 

[stovebolts]

Great replies from everyone!

Lets take a look at a few other verses.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; But the foolish despise wisdom and instruction.

We see that Job wasn't a fool by any means. God even testifies to this in verse 8 when God says, "one that feareth God,"

But if we look at the words of Solomon, fear is just the beginning. It's not the end all be all.

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

So we can see that the goal isn't simply wisdom, but rather, we want to reach a point of deeper understanding with a fuller perspective on who God is, which is the source of true wisdom. () Understanding is never reached through fear, but fear can be an entry point into understanding.

Go back and read chapters 1 and 2, and you will see that Job is a very religious and pious man. In other word's, he's got all his ritual's down pat and he's got a healthy dose of fear which motivates him to adhere to God's prescribed rituals, and do the things God wants him to do. Job doesn't probe or ask questions, he's simply obedient to God's will as the text bears out in many places.

So lets go back to our original thought. What characteristic is missing from the description of Job. To answer that, one must ask the question. What is the greatest commandment? (Deut 6:4)

If you've just had an A-Ha moment, you'll start seeing things in Job, such as why he answers his friends the way he does, as well as why he tries to justify his innocence. (1 John 4:18) You see, we have to make that transformation.

As far as the Satan, he can only see the exterior of a man, while the Lord sees the inner man.

Thoughts?

 

[stovebolts]

why does god feel the need to prove anything to satan, let alone ALLOW satan to have his way for any reason.

I think you've missed the whole point. God has nothing to prove, and if you read the text, you'll see that Satan can only do to Job what God allows. You see, what we think is important, isn't always what's truly important. God has a purpose, but it's not based on a bet.

 

[tessiewebb]

I don't remember how many times I read Job until I found the reason for his suffering. It is clear as a bell once you see it. I've heard it preached how he was so patient, long suffering, the implication being that no matter what God did to him, he endured. In the NT he is honored for his patience. Just shows you God thinks the best of His own, which is a great relief to me. First it should be noted the sufferings came in stages. Material belongings, then children, then his own bodily sufferings. Since it is OT, we can expect not to be so tested as he was, but the stages show that he was a hard man to get through to. Chapter 32:1 gives us the final answer as to why God allowed his calamities: Job was righteous in his own eyes. It took all those stages and horrible happenings to break him down (chap 40:4) to the understanding that when God said no one is righteous, He meant it sincerely.

I thank God that with the indwelling spirit none of us have to be concerned that if God caused such catastrophic events to happen to Job, He might do it to us. We will be tested but not for breaking down. It will be only for building us up. Since we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, we have no self-righteousness. And if it should raise it's ugly head we can trust the Spirit of Christ will bring it to our attention quickly.

 

[tessiewebb]

...and also to show us how evil we are. christ in is doesnt make us any more good. dead men dont do to good deeds.

what i mean by this is that we have been changed when we come to the cross but not perfected all at once. that change comes through santification. we can never be so holy and pure that we are like god..

Hello, brother, let me ask you: If we cannot be as God (notice I said "as God". I'm not implying we can BE God) how can Scripture tell us to "be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect" and that "as He (Jesus) is so are we also in the world"?

 

[stovebolts]

Amen tessiwebb!

Did you notice that through Job's self righteousness, it was done out of fear of the Lord? If we don't make that transformation from fear to love, we're just going through the motions. No wonder Job thought so high of himself and responded to his friends.

The sages say that it is a blessing to, "have friends as Job had". Yet Job show's no love for them, only bitterness. They came to grieve with him, they sat 7 days in silence with him. They loved him.

Job lacked love in his life, and his every step was a step in fear, and not faith. That's not the type of relationship God wants with us.

 

[tessiewebb]

Amen tessiwebb!

Did you notice that through Job's self righteousness, it was done out of fear of the Lord? If we don't make that transformation from fear to love, we're just going through the motions. No wonder Job thought so high of himself and responded to his friends.

The sages say that it is a blessing to, "have friends as Job had". Yet Job show's no love for them, only bitterness. They came to grieve with him, they sat 7 days in silence with him. They loved him.

Job lacked love in his life, and his every step was a step in fear, and not faith. That's not the type of relationship God wants with us.

No, I didn't see that his self-reighteousness was due to fear of the Lord. I noted that the things he did were out of that fear if that is what you intended. His self-righteousness seems to me to be more self-congratulatory than fearful. And yes, we are just doing what we think will protect us from Him if we are not acknowledging His love for us and loving Him for it. I think our love has to be in great part gratitude that He does love us. I don't know why the sages thought him blessed, but God had Job pray for his friends who did not speak rightly of Him as did Job.

It seems the friends were misrepresenting God in their attempts to convince Job that he was doing wrong. As we sometimes do when we attempt to strike fear into those we consider to be "in sin".

If Job spoke rightly concerning God, it must have been at the end of the book when he admitted he knew nothing, could say nothing and that God knew and was all in all.

Would that we all would come to that full realization and be done with all self effort!!

 

[stovebolts]

No, I didn't see that his self-reighteousness was due to fear of the Lord.

God's explanation of Job's Character is clear. Job is one who fears the Lord and turnes away from evil." Why did Job turn away from evil? The text tells us. It was because he feared the Lord.

Let's say you are raising your child and they are doing something that could cause them danger, so you tell them to stop or they are going to get in trouble. They don't have the capacity to understand that danger, but they have the capacity to understand that they are going to get into trouble. So, out of fear, which is something they can understand, they don't do what you don't want them to do. Sooner or later as they mature, they need to make that transition from fear, to love. Fear gets results, but only because it's a language other are only capable of understanding. If a relationship stays in fear, then what a person does begins to be based on a system of punishments and rewards. God wants us to live a certain way because he loves us...

Job was doing everything right, including the rituals that were supposed to draw him closer to God, but they weren't. As far as Job's outside appearance, he was blameless. But his relationship with God was based on fear,and he wasn't maturing. Having this type of relationship driven by punishments and rewards, when you're doing everything right, you begin to bolster your own self rightousness... and that is what Job does when he demands counsel with God himself.

This is why the text does not state that Job was a man after God's own heart... But in Ez 14:14-20 he is counted as one of the righteous...

I noted that the things he did were out of that fear if that is what you intended. His self-righteousness seems to me to be more self-congratulatory than fearful. And yes, we are just doing what we think will protect us from Him if we are not acknowledging His love for us and loving Him for it. I think our love has to be in great part gratitude that He does love us. I don't know why the sages thought him blessed, but God had Job pray for his friends who did not speak rightly of Him as did Job.

It's beyond the scope of this conversation at times, but Job does blaspheme God. This should show us that God does not always hold us accountable for what we say when we are in situations of extreme stress and angst.

But let's say that you had a really bad day.. a bad week. You know who your true friends are because they drop their lives and come to be with you. True friends grieve with you. They sit in silence with you, and mourn with you. They cover themselves in ashes, because they are grieving with you. Ohh, to have those kind of true friends. They are becoming rare in our society. Here's a dinner, we wish you well. Goodbye.

It seems the friends were misrepresenting God in their attempts to convince Job that he was doing wrong. As we sometimes do when we attempt to strike fear into those we consider to be "in sin".

All of them struggled to understand who God was. Each of them, including Job had put God in a box. Each of them held truth to God's nature and economy.

If Job spoke rightly concerning God, it must have been at the end of the book when he admitted he knew nothing, could say nothing and that God knew and was all in all.

Would that we all would come to that full realization and be done with all self effort!!

Job's view of God was certainly stretched. (Job 42:3) This also brought him to repentance (vs. 6) because he was brought low (40:11).

Let's contrast how Job responds to his friends. After he was brought low by God and had repented, the text says,
And Jehovah turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: and Jehovah gave Job twice as much as he had before.

What would have happened if Job had came up from his silence, sitting is ash, reached out and prayed with his friends? Showed them gratitude for being there for him?

If we look at 42:10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-13934">11</sup> All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the LORD had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring.

Job was finally able to see what love was... before he was brought low, all he knew was rightousness. He did not know how to respond to love, because he could not recognize love.

 

[lovely]

I get no inspiration from the book of Job. He was the subject of a bet between god and satan. Not only that, the all knowing god knew what the outcome would be before hand so the bet was pointless. As I see it the story of Jobs suffering wasn't a test, but god just wanting to be cruel for no reason.

Luke 16:15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your heart; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God."

Pslams 139:4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.

Any "tests" from god are pointless. He knows what the outcome would be if he tests you even before he does. Not only that, but now god is making bets with the devil, who would have evil intentions which god would have been aware of. So now god is allowing satan to cause suffering to prove to him Job is faithful? why does god feel the need to prove anything to satan, let alone ALLOW satan to have his way for any reason.

I am not sure, but I think you are a non-believer. If that's the case, then the statements you're making can't be true...God can't be cruel if He doesn't exist. If the God of the Bible is and knows all, then it also must be viewed in the framework of eternity. What satan and man intend for evil, God can use for good. Pain and suffering, though difficult to go through, can be beneficial for someone now and later. Things like limiting a child's wants, correction, or the pain of a needle, or of surgery are helpful. Pain in our bodies allows us to know when something is wrong. Spiritually and emotionally this can also be true. We can come out the other end of difficult and painful situations more humble, more compassionate, more grateful, stronger, better equipped to help others, and so on. Our eyes can be opened to the knowledge of who God is and who we are in His economy.

 

[lovely]

Jeff,

That makes sense to me, the crushing of self-righteousness and finding a deeper understanding of who God is and love. The fear of the Lord is just the beginning, and I do see Job's fear...that was what seemed to keep him going through the process without turning on God...He knew that whatever God allowed would happen. Hmmm, I'm going to have to reread it with that understanding and see what comes.

This also kinda reminds me of Ephesus, they seemed to have all the rituals and works down, but they had lost their first love. Admirable fear, but lacking in love for God.

 

[stovebolts]

This also kinda reminds me of Ephesus, they seemed to have all the rituals and works down, but they had lost their first love. Admirable fear, but lacking in love for God.

Wow, nice insight and it fits like a glove.

Last week I was out running and I couldn't get Job out of my mind. I wish I could remember everything I thought about, but it occurred to me that God by way of example of Job wants us to live by faith, and that only occurs when we're in love with Him. Why? Because we trust in him that he is doing a good work inside of us, but it's not always easy. Honestly, it can be down right painful.

But like Job, God has so much more for us when we realize that life is full of relationships based on love, and we are not simply mere polite guests to one another. Yes, it is important how we treat each other, but when we do it in love toward one another, we share in each others life... and it holds a certain healing of the soul for a lack of a better way to describe it.

Anyway.. just rambling. Thanks,