Bible Study Job: Defense on God's behalf. (Not that God needs help, just saying)

[Brother Mike]

Farouk

I think it was in the sense of God allowing Job's testing, rather than God's (supposed) uncontrolled passion (which does not describe God).

God chose to allow Job to be tested. He was not supposedly coerced or compelled.

So your understanding is that God "Allows" the murder of our precious children for some type of test, though James specifically says God DOES NOT tempt (Test, tries, ascertains the state of man) with evil things. That would mean the murder of a child is not actually evil. What purpose would God need Job to be tested? God not know the heart or state of man's thinking? Job learned absolute nothing until God himself shows up and breaks some things down. If we are tested with unbearable grief such as Job who was taken to the point of wanting to die, because God wants a test. Then who do we turn to for help? Do we do such as Job and never ask God for help because Job felt it was God who harmed him?

If It's God's will that I be sick, then I certainly am not going to the Doctor to get out of God's will. I won't ask God anything against His will, so I have not because I won't ask God to break his own will. People that think God had a hand in what happened to Job, or that God might test us with sickness still go to the Doctor even though it's against God's will. They still try to mess up God's test, because the thinking is that if the Doctor can heal me, then it was not God's will after all that I be sick. We should not be ignorant of the Will of God at any time though. We need to know His will before seeking the doctor just in case God wants us to suffer. Only confused people think this way. It's not the will of the Lord we are sick or suffer.

Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.


Does "Love" choose to have a crazed hit man murder our loved ones? Does "Love" really do that? God's love is shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Spirit, yet I have never been compelled to harm someone for some test.

You have some very different understanding of who God is. Very interesting.

Mike.

 

[farouk]

Farouk

I think it was in the sense of God allowing Job's testing, rather than God's (supposed) uncontrolled passion (which does not describe God).

God chose to allow Job to be tested. He was not supposedly coerced or compelled.

So your understanding is that God "Allows" the murder of our precious children for some type of test, though James specifically says God DOES NOT tempt (Test, tries, ascertains the state of man) with evil things. That would mean the murder of a child is not actually evil. What purpose would God need Job to be tested? God not know the heart or state of man's thinking? Job learned absolute nothing until God himself shows up and breaks some things down. If we are tested with unbearable grief such as Job who was taken to the point of wanting to die, because God wants a test. Then who do we turn to for help? Do we do such as Job and never ask God for help because Job felt it was God who harmed him?

If It's God's will that I be sick, then I certainly am not going to the Doctor to get out of God's will. I won't ask God anything against His will, so I have not because I won't ask God to break his own will.

Does "Love" choose to have a crazed hit man murder our loved ones? Does "Love" really do that? God's love is shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Spirit, yet I have never been compelled to harm someone for some test.

You have some very different understanding of who God is. Very interesting.

Mike.

Mike:

I don't quite understand your post.

God is not subject to Satan's schemes and whims. If He allows things to happen, it is not because He is not omnipotent, but because it is all in the scheme of greater good in His purposes, and emphatically not because Satan is supposedly stronger than He.

If we don't understand what God is doing in allowing certain things, then we are not called on to understand. We rather are called to trust Him.

 

[Deborah13]

Kind of a linguistic/translation thing, really. This is how I would understand it00, I reckon.

another translation according to Thayer's would be "irritated". I just think satan was irritating God with his telling God that Job only obeyed Him because God was good to Job. In fact it sounds like he was saying the Job was God's spoiled kid.

I see that the three supposed friends of Job were the ones in trouble with God because they accused God of doing these things against Job.

I see the young man, Elihu, as a type and shadow. It is the only time he is mentioned in the Bible, he's kind of like Melchizedek except he does have a genealogy.

 

[Deborah13]

Job's friends believed that God is a good God and the only way for Job to have such supernatural destruction was that Job was someone that Job did not appear to be.

The friends were the ones in trouble with God. They were more ignorant than Job. They said God was punishing Job, so he must have done something wrong.
Job repented of his self-righteousness in thinking that God was good to him because he was so righteous when in fact God blessed from the beginning even before he proved himself. That's why he was as wealthy as he was God must have provided first, as He always does. Job was also concerned about what other people would think of him.
This is goes, I think, with what @StoveBolts was saying....
Job 42:3-6 KJV
3 ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.”
4 ‘Hear, now, and I will speak;
I will ask You, and You instruct me.’
5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You;
6 Therefore I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes.”

They did not repent, God had them bring sacrifices for their sin and appointed Job as the priest to make the prayers for them.
Job 42:7-9
7 It came about after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has....through v9.

Note: the name Elihu may translate as "He is my God"

So that is just what I think in short. IMHO

 

[Brother Mike]

Farouk

God is not subject to Satan's schemes and whims. If He allows things to happen, it is not because He is not omnipotent, but because it is all in the scheme of greater good in His purposes, and emphatically not because Satan is supposedly stronger than He.

If we don't understand what God is doing in allowing certain things, then we are not called on to understand. We rather are called to trust Him.

Absolutely! God is not subject to any nonsense the devil wants to pull. Satan is just a disobedient angel.
However, Death of a child is not good and serves no purpose. It's evil to loose a child, evil to have all you own taken from you and evil to be so sick you can't hardly move. There is nothing good about any of the things that happened to Job. Job never called to God for help and blamed God through the whole thing. Job was past listening to anyone and wanted to die. This can't be for some mysterious and greater purpose.

To say God "Allowed" is to bring the thought that if God wanted, God could have stopped Satan from getting Job. If that is the case, then it's like saying I watched the baby crawl into the pool and drown, doing nothing but watch. That means I can't be trusted with babies, and God certainly can not be trusted to be faithful.

If you read above, I explain why God did not stop Satan, and why Job went through what he did. It was not a matter of God just allowing, it was a matter of God would have had to break his Word to stop Satan and that won't happen. God can be trusted if we know the conditions that give the devil a place, and Satan can't lay a finger on us if we understand those conditions. Job's problem was fear, as explained above. That's not God allowing or not allowing but God not perverting Judgment of what God has already declared to be true. Elihu did mention this in chapter 34.

Deborah13


God certainly did not allow or have anything to do with Job being attacked by Satan. Job through ignorance broke a rule about fear and entrance to the enemy. I think Job was spoiled though and that is a good point. Elihu was the only one that spoke right. Elihu told Job God did not do the evil and will not pervert judgment or his own Word. If Job would have just cried out for help when it all went down, but Job felt he was wronged because he was such a good person.

Job teaches us that works alone does not bring the full protection and promises of God to us. Everything we do by works, God calls a debt to be repaid and it's so very little we can do as opposed to the free grace and mercy of God. Job also teaches us that prayer through fear of something, and living in fear brings opposite results. Praying because I am listening to the devil about the destruction of my kids is praying on the belief that what the devil said, he can bring to pass. Instead we should choose God's Word that with long life I'll satisfy them and tell the devil to go jump in the lake.

Job also teaches that when the flood comes. It's not time to ask why or figure things out. Satan can certainly give us a list of things we fall short in, but if we need any correction God is faithful to show us those things (Php 1:6) I know when my own son got cancer, I did not ask why, did not feel sorry for myself and certainly did not speak fear. I knew that God had nothing to do with my sons cancer and God is certainly not giving the devil permission or "Allowing" him to harm our children. Jesus warned about a millstone around ones neck for harming little ones, and God certainly is not a candidate to wear one of those.

Note: the name Elihu may translate as "He is my God"

Thank you for that. All the years I have been looking at Job, I never seen that. Adding that to the collection and because of the richness and deepness of God's Word, I will be adding lots more. Years is not enough.

Blessings
Mike.

 

[farouk]

Mike:

I see you understand some of what I said, but I still don't see how the permissive will of God (that is, he allows tragedies, etc.) is supposedly incompatible with trusting Him (if in fact you are saying this). I don't understand all God's ways; in fact, there are so many of His ways that are past finding out (Isaiah 55.6-11). This is the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ that we are called on to trust.

 

[Brother Mike]

Farouk:

Mike:

I see you understand some of what I said, but I still don't see how the permissive will of God (that is, he allows tragedies, etc.) is supposedly incompatible with trusting Him (if in fact you are saying this). I don't understand all God's ways; in fact, there are so many of His ways that are past finding out (Isaiah 55.6-11). This is the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ that we are called on to trust.

This is why I wrote this thread brother. Job is a great example to use and break down. I want people that are hurting to have a victory. I want what people thought about God not getting involved to see that help is always there but we have a part to play. A covenant is two sides working one with another, it's not one sided where God just picks and chooses to do as He wishes.

To say God allows tragedies (Standing idly by just whistling while the bear gnaws our legs off) Is to say God can not be counted on. If you tell me to watch your house while away on business, and I just watch as people break in your house, doing nothing while your TV is headed out the door. Then I also can not be trusted.

See, to not do good when you can is sin. (James 4:17- I think) God don't sin, so for God not to do good, something on our part would have to hinder that. The idea is that everything that happens, bad or good must be God's will in some way. That is not at all true.

God said my ways are higher than your ways, He did not say we are not to understand his ways though. He just said I am smarter than you all, and you need to learn some things. There are many prayers Paul prayed so that people would know what the will of God was and we are not to be ignorant of God's will. We have the Holy Spirit that shows us all things, we have James that said ask for wisdom and God gives it every single time. So there would be no need not to understand anything as nothing is hidden that shall not be manifest or kept secret from us. (Mark 4)

I can promise you that if any sickness, any trouble, Go to the Word, Go to God and ask him what to do. It's never God's will that we be sick and hurting, not even some mysterious permissive will. God will show you clearly.

We have a part.........................

Jesus said all things are possible to him that believe. What if you don't believe? What if you speak fear instead of the Word? Would the outcome be different?
What about the two men that went to the same church, heard the same messages by Jesus, but one took heed and the other man did not. One built a house on sand, the other on the rock. The flood came for both men. The flood did not choose as things just happen in this world and we have a enemy that is trying to kill us, steal from us and destroy us. We should give all the glory to God we are even breathing. One man had listened to Jesus, was a doer of the Word, the other man was not. You notice the outcomes of both houses were different? It had nothing to do with God's will, just one man paid attention and the other did not.

James said we are to have faith, nothing wavering. Wavering is asking God to pay the bills then telling your friends that your so broke you can't pay attention. The prayer that God supply's all my needs is not what your saying to your friends. Your taking two positions and the word says let not that man think He shall receive anything of the Lord. zero.

God's Will.

If you ever question God's will on something, then check your heart. Inside you is your home beacon. I am talking about where your Father's throne is located in Heaven. We never seen Heaven (Most have not) but we know inside that it's a wonderful place. We just know things about it that only God could put there. No sickness, no bad side of town, no power bills, Home is awesome.

Now, check what Jesus said..............

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

God's will for earth, is the same will God has for Heaven. God runs Heaven in complete control and glory. The earth, not so much, just look around.

God does not have two separate wills!

If everything on earth was going according to the will of God, then Jesus would have never prayed this. A whole lot of things happen that are not the will of God. It's like robbing a bank, then in prison telling everyone how God made you rob a bank so you would have time to get closer to him. We are glad your getting to know God better with all the extra time you have, but God still said not to steal.

If you want to know God's will on healing, Job losing his children, then check your heart what heaven is like. It's a good place to start when things go bad. It's not my fathers will that I don't make it through this unharmed.

Now does not God have complete control over everything? Nope, and He won't break his word to help either. He told us not to have fear, to have faith. He told us not to steal or commit adultery. If we don't do what we are told, then we don't get God's results.

There is another reason that Heaven runs perfectly to the will of God. God tells us.

Psa 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

I guess we are not doing that great a job, but as a child of God, you have every right blessed with Abraham to make it through every single time. Earth is not our home, and Satan can only form a weapon or hold on for just a short time. Satan has no weapon against someone who believes what God said. None.

Be blessed.
Mike.

 

[farouk]

Farouk:

Mike:

I see you understand some of what I said, but I still don't see how the permissive will of God (that is, he allows tragedies, etc.) is supposedly incompatible with trusting Him (if in fact you are saying this). I don't understand all God's ways; in fact, there are so many of His ways that are past finding out (Isaiah 55.6-11). This is the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ that we are called on to trust.

This is why I wrote this thread brother. Job is a great example to use and break down. I want people that are hurting to have a victory. I want what people thought about God not getting involved to see that help is always there but we have a part to play. A covenant is two sides working one with another, it's not one sided where God just picks and chooses to do as He wishes.

To say God allows tragedies (Standing idly by just whistling while the bear gnaws our legs off) Is to say God can not be counted on. If you tell me to watch your house while away on business, and I just watch as people break in your house, doing nothing while your TV is headed out the door. Then I also can not be trusted.

See, to not do good when you can is sin. (James 4:17- I think) God don't sin, so for God not to do good, something on our part would have to hinder that. The idea is that everything that happens, bad or good must be God's will in some way. That is not at all true.

God said my ways are higher than your ways, He did not say we are not to understand his ways though. He just said I am smarter than you all, and you need to learn some things. There are many prayers Paul prayed so that people would know what the will of God was and we are not to be ignorant of God's will. We have the Holy Spirit that shows us all things, we have James that said ask for wisdom and God gives it every single time. So there would be no need not to understand anything as nothing is hidden that shall not be manifest or kept secret from us. (Mark 4)

I can promise you that if any sickness, any trouble, Go to the Word, Go to God and ask him what to do. It's never God's will that we be sick and hurting, not even some mysterious permissive will. God will show you clearly.

We have a part.........................

Jesus said all things are possible to him that believe. What if you don't believe? What if you speak fear instead of the Word? Would the outcome be different?
What about the two men that went to the same church, heard the same messages by Jesus, but one took heed and the other man did not. One built a house on sand, the other on the rock. The flood came for both men. The flood did not choose as things just happen in this world and we have a enemy that is trying to kill us, steal from us and destroy us. We should give all the glory to God we are even breathing. One man had listened to Jesus, was a doer of the Word, the other man was not. You notice the outcomes of both houses were different? It had nothing to do with God's will, just one man paid attention and the other did not.

James said we are to have faith, nothing wavering. Wavering is asking God to pay the bills then telling your friends that your so broke you can't pay attention. The prayer that God supply's all my needs is not what your saying to your friends. Your taking two positions and the word says let not that man think He shall receive anything of the Lord. zero.

God's Will.

If you ever question God's will on something, then check your heart. Inside you is your home beacon. I am talking about where your Father's throne is located in Heaven. We never seen Heaven (Most have not) but we know inside that it's a wonderful place. We just know things about it that only God could put there. No sickness, no bad side of town, no power bills, Home is awesome.

Now, check what Jesus said..............

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

God's will for earth, is the same will God has for Heaven. God runs Heaven in complete control and glory. The earth, not so much, just look around.

God does not have two separate wills!

If everything on earth was going according to the will of God, then Jesus would have never prayed this. A whole lot of things happen that are not the will of God. It's like robbing a bank, then in prison telling everyone how God made you rob a bank so you would have time to get closer to him. We are glad your getting to know God better with all the extra time you have, but God still said not to steal.

If you want to know God's will on healing, Job losing his children, then check your heart what heaven is like. It's a good place to start when things go bad. It's not my fathers will that I don't make it through this unharmed.

Now does not God have complete control over everything? Nope, and He won't break his word to help either. He told us not to have fear, to have faith. He told us not to steal or commit adultery. If we don't do what we are told, then we don't get God's results.

There is another reason that Heaven runs perfectly to the will of God. God tells us.

Psa 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

I guess we are not doing that great a job, but as a child of God, you have every right blessed with Abraham to make it through every single time. Earth is not our home, and Satan can only form a weapon or hold on for just a short time. Satan has no weapon against someone who believes what God said. None.

Be blessed.
Mike.

Mike:

I have highlighted in red something with which I strongly dissent; this is actually a caricature of what I think and of what I understand the Scriptures to teach, about trusting God.

This is not a debate forum in the first place and, having referred earlier to some Scriptures, I would prefer to bow out of this discussion, Friend. I appreciated your considered attention; it seems that we are not in agreement at all. Thanks.

 

[Brother Mike]

farouk

This is not a debate forum in the first place and, having referred earlier to some Scriptures, I would prefer to bow out of this discussion, Friend. I appreciated your considered attention; it seems that we are not in agreement at all. Thanks.

Thank you, I fully understand. Until next discussion. Blessings.

Mike.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi again Brother Mike!

I want to start off with saying thank you for your excellent study. Like yourself I enjoy wrestling with this book and you bring a lot of great insight into this study as well and I appreciate your ablility to bring me to a different way of looking at Job through the law, even though Job was never under the law. The Jewish studies I have read in regard to Job view Job through the Law, but in a way to illuminate a deeper level of understanding of Job's charactar and God's mercy so your perspective of using the law to condemn Job is a bit different for me, but it does agree with scripture, so I thank you for your perspective as we grow together.

God certainly did not allow or have anything to do with Job being attacked by Satan. Job through ignorance broke a rule about fear and entrance to the enemy. I think Job was spoiled though and that is a good point. Elihu was the only one that spoke right. Elihu told Job God did not do the evil and will not pervert judgment or his own Word. If Job would have just cried out for help when it all went down, but Job felt he was wronged because he was such a good person.

Brother, I do not want to dwell on our differences and what I am about to write in no way diminishes any other thing you have written but when I read the account of Job, it screams, "God is in control". Let me explain.

Satan was correct when God brought up his servant Job that God had put up a hedge around Job. Job was greater in the land than Abraham ever was from a materialistic view point and people even came to Job for council which shows the wisdom that Job had been given. Satan knows his boundaries because Satan has no authority over a child of God. Even you Brother Mike have a hedge around you that only Satan can breach upon God's approval.

God had a goal in mind for Job. Job is a great man, but he lacks as you've outlined and there is only one way to grow and stretch Job that will mold Job into the man God wants him to be because God desires relationship over obedience and by me saying that in no way takes away from our obedience to God.

So how does God open the eyes of Job? How does God bring Job into relationship? How does God drive out the fear of God that resides so deeply in Job that it's stagnated Job? I believe God brings Job through his fears, and that resolves into a Love for God in the end and Job has nothing to fear.

I don't think God ever removed the hedge, he simply lowered it to allow Job to be transformed. I ask you this. Could you imagine living all your life with the fear Job carried around each day? That in itself is hell. Look at how he feared for his children that he would sacrafice each day for them "just in case". How good would it be to be released from that fear.

God allows people to be handed over to Satan that they might repent, and God did just that with Job so the way I read Job is that God was in control the whole time because he had better things in mind for Job.

As Christians, can we believe that God is in control when he hands us over to Satan? Will we find our faults that we were once ignorant to and repent that we might be closer to God when our eyes are opened? It's not fun when it happens to us and nobody enjoys it... but if we look long term and have faith in God, he'll draw us close if we accept.

 

[Deborah13]

If God would have stopped Satan, God would have had to break His eternal Word.

This is rather how I see it. I really can't put my understanding of this in words. You did better than I have ever been able.

 

[Deborah13]

Does "Love" choose to have a crazed hit man murder our loved ones? Does "Love" really do that? God's love is shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Spirit, yet I have never been compelled to harm someone for some test.

This is just how I understand it.

God created the world perfect, no sin, no sickness, etc.
God gave dominion over the earth to man.
Man did not trust the words of God and choose to put his trust in a LIAR, a DESTROYER.
So man caused sin to have power on the earth. satan
Jesus took the authority over the earth in the way that He had victory over sin, satan, and He gave us the shared authority, in His name to overcome.
So we still live on an earth that is contaminated by evil caused not by God but by man listening to the Liar.
To me to blame God for evil is to listen to the Liar.
satan told them in the garden that God was withholding something good from them, that it would not cause them to die, but was good. They believed him instead of God.
So how do I determine what is from God and what is evil. I look at God says about heaven and if it doesn't exist there then it shouldn't exist here. That includes the evil that exists in my own mind/heart.
I don't believe God causes evil or allows evil. God in His Sovereignty gave man free will to choose. We chose wrongly now we face the consequences and it's up to us to choose Godly manners.
But it doesn't change the fact that evil is in the world and satan will attack a Christian, sometimes so quickly they didn't/couldn't see it coming.
God can/will use evil to bring about good but He didn't cause it and He didn't allow it. The rules were set in place long ago.

 

[Brother Mike]

Deborah13

Wow!!! Only God could have revealed all that to you. Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. God does not have a will for Earth and one for Heaven. Jesus is the one that said that so Red Letters trump everything else. I am amazed as it's taken me years to understand what you written above. It literally had taken the Holy Spirit to tell me one day "you know, I had nothing to do with what happened to Job." I heard that real loud in my spirit and then I told the Lord very plainly that He gave permission to the devil and the Lord then said in a harsher tone. "I did no such thing, study the book of Job and compare my word"

To be honest, it was six months later, every day looking at Job and I still did not get it. I do know that accusing God of doing evil, really irritates him. Same thing with Adam and Eve though, Satan convinced them God was holding out or keeping something from them. Awesome Sister, thank you for just breaking it down like that.


StoveBolts:

God allows people to be handed over to Satan that they might repent, and God did just that with Job so the way I read Job is that God was in control the whole time because he had better things in mind for Job.

Blessings Brother!! It's great to see other studies concerning the Bible. Without different views and understandings I would have nothing to compare.

I want you to see what it looks like when someone is handed over to Satan.

1Co_5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Being turned over to Satan is not a teaching tool, its a destruction tool. Both cases here were to stop and destroy the acts committed by these men. Then man in Cor did repent, but their was no need for the pain he went through had he just repented on his own. Notice God was not the one turning over anyone, but Paul did using His authority we believers have by the direction of the Holy Spirit.

A teaching tool would be the Word as all scripture is for reproof and doctrine. Also the Apostles, Pastors, Teachers, Prophets and Evangelist are given for the perfecting of the Saints. More powerful tools than unleashing hell on someone. We should always use the most powerful and effective tools.

God is in control?

The only thing that happened to Job is what Job had fear of. It's nothing that God set. We have to ask ourselves who has control here. Does God lower hedges? Never said he did. God did say this though.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Who has to choose? God told us to choose, we can't say God is making the choice for us, when God said we have a choice. We can choose to be blessed, or cursed. We can choose life, or death. We lower our hedge or we allow God's protection. God would not have lowered the hedge, Job would have had to do that, otherwise God lied about Deu 30:19.

choices are made by speaking or taking action to. They are recorded God said and what you choose does matter. What did Job choose? Job choose to be afraid of the Sabeans and Chaldeans. Job choose to fear that his Kids may die because they could be cursing God. Job choose to listen to Satan and take action about his kids, his protection and health. That is what Job choose, by not only saying, but by taking actions to the enemy promising him cursing and death.

And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
(Job 1:5)

Job said! Job declared a thing that could happen. That was Job's choice and having your seed not live as promised is not a blessing.

What we say, who we side with and actions we take make a differences. Do my actions indicate I believe Satan, or believe God? All Satan needs for a place is our agreement. We have to agree with the devil and disagree with what God said. That is all it takes. It's our choice.

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

(Mat 12:36-37)

Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Idle words are dormant until activated. They bring fourth good or bad things. (Treasure) They are words spoken that dictate a belief from the heart. What is abundant in your heart, just comes out of your mouth. The words that count are ones that dictate a future event. Fear, or Faith.

Fear is faith in something bad coming in the Future. Job believed His Kids could die in the future, because they could be cursing God. Job belived the Sabeans and/or Chaldeans could come and cause trouble at any moment as Job said I was never in safety. (Job 3:25)

These are the Words that are recorded in Deut, and the ones Jesus spoke of that we have to give an account of. It can't be the will of God who is love to murder our children to teach us. God does not murder someone's Children that God says is upright. Job brought the hedge down himself.

When talking with people that want to know why God did not help them. I ask one question if led. What did you choose? What did you say? Be thy will prayers are going to end badly. We were told to choose, not tell God we are not going to obey his word and say he has to choose. God will move Heaven and Earth to keep his Word and back up your choice. It's recorded and we will give an account.

Common things that are choices and not to say:

Look both ways before crossing the street or you can be hit and killed by a car. (That is one outcome you don't want, don't say that. Can't God protect in case the child forgets to look?)

You scared me to death. (You really want to be scared to death someday? Are we suppose to have fear of anything?)

If it's not one bill, it's another. We never seem to get ahead. (As opposed to God will supply all your needs?)

I always swell up like a basketball during hay fever season. ( According to your choice, it's basketball time!)

My memory is not as it use to be, old age will do that. (So having the mind of Christ means bad memory?)

These are just examples and they are recorded and we will give an account.

Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

choices are made by speaking or taking action to. They are recorded God said and what you choose does matter. What did Job choose? Job choose to be afraid of the Sabeans and Chaldeans

I'm not saying you said this, so please don't take it personally. I just putting this thought out there.

What we have to remember is that satan doesn't care how close to God someone is. In other words our actions are not ALWAYS the cause of an attack by satan.

Very strong Christians that put their full trust in God and walk in the Spirit VERY well can be/and are, attacked by satan in the most devastating manners. It was not their fault. satan hates us because we love Jesus, whom he hates. In fact, he just hates, it's the nature of the beast.

Sometimes he thinks he's won a victory but in these people's lives God can turn it around very painful experiences and draw them even closer to Him because they trust Him. I really admire these people's strength and faith. I should be so strong.

 

[Brother Mike]

Deborah

I'm not saying you said this, so please don't take it personally. I just putting this thought out there.

What we have to remember is that satan doesn't care how close to God someone is. In other words our actions are not ALWAYS the cause of an attack by satan.

Very strong Christians that put their full trust in God and walk in the Spirit VERY well can be/and are, attacked by satan in the most devastating manners. It was not their fault. satan hates us because we love Jesus, whom he hates. In fact, he just hates, it's the nature of the beast.

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
(Isa 54:17)

Hater's will hate. That is Satan. Your right, our choices in obeying God will keep us from going through many things the devil would love to do to us. Still, weapons can be formed without us choosing a thing. Paul is a good example of this from his ship crashing into pieces then soon after a poisonous snake.

In Prison I did not choose to drink that coffee they put bleach in with another cleaner. I just took a big gulp and it was to late. I certainly did not choose for my son to have cancer. We don't always choose when that weapon is formed. We do have to choose if that weapon will prosper though. Fighting the good fight of faith, must be a fight or the Bible would not have called it a fight.
I have found that God never fails, and I always come out on top, despite having to to stand while in pain, or circumstances are just messed up for awhile. Most of my issues though I caused on my own, I can count on one hand where I actually "think" I had nothing to do with Satan trying to get his licks in. Then again, it could be God can't explain it to me yet because I would not understand anyway. I don't know, I do know that if you stay on the Word only, and trust God. Then no weapon can prosper, ever.

God is so good, that I have had to mature past getting upset when people think God lowered the hedge so Satan could murder Job's children. I have a lot more growing up to do when it comes to fruit and the love of God. We have to keep in mind it's the tree the bares good fruit, not the tree that believed God 100 times to get out of hot water.

Mike.

 

[stovebolts]

I don't believe God causes evil or allows evil.

ASV Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am *YHVH, that doeth all these things.
*Jehovah

 

[stovebolts]

Blessings Brother!! It's great to see other studies concerning the Bible. Without different views and understandings I would have nothing to compare.

I want you to see what it looks like when someone is handed over to Satan.

1Co_5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Being turned over to Satan is not a teaching tool, its a destruction tool. Both cases here were to stop and destroy the acts committed by these men. Then man in Cor did repent, but their was no need for the pain he went through had he just repented on his own. Notice God was not the one turning over anyone, but Paul did using His authority we believers have by the direction of the Holy Spirit.

A teaching tool would be the Word as all scripture is for reproof and doctrine. Also the Apostles, Pastors, Teachers, Prophets and Evangelist are given for the perfecting of the Saints. More powerful tools than unleashing hell on someone. We should always use the most powerful and effective tools.

Can you see God handing over Job for the same purposes? I believe that is has been sufficiently established as a fair understanding of the text thus far to show that God did indeed hand Job over to Satan for the purpose of gaining dialog on the basis of relationship, and not that of simple obedience. I understand the texts bear this out as well, "Have you seen my servant Job..." It was God who called Job to Satan's attention and it is our intent to reason why. Do you agree?

 

[Brother Mike]

Can you see God handing over Job for the same purposes? I believe that is has been sufficiently established as a fair understanding of the text thus far to show that God did indeed hand Job over to Satan for the purpose of gaining dialog on the basis of relationship, and not that of simple obedience. I understand the texts bear this out as well, "Have you seen my servant Job..." It was God who called Job to Satan's attention and it is our intent to reason why. Do you agree?

I agree God spoke first, but from looking at God's point of view, Watching Satan interact with Job and constantly putting in Jobs head that His kids are not serving God, and could be cursing God. I think God already knew why Satan was there, Satan is in the Throne room. I also don't find any permissive Hebrew Statement. They both know why each other are having the conversation, they Both know that through fear the devil has a place. I see it as a done deal by two spiritual beings and Satan felt he had built up enough fear in Job to have that place.

So Satan says, God you put your hands on Job, and God said "Behold" Pay attention dummy, all Job has is in your power.

Satan comes back a second time God tells Satan that you have already tried to trick me or entice me to destroy Job without cause. So, there was no reason God had to let the devil in or Harm Job, as God said it was without cause and stop trying to get me to harm him. You have your place.

Blessings.

 

[stovebolts]

God is in control?

The only thing that happened to Job is what Job had fear of. It's nothing that God set. We have to ask ourselves who has control here. Does God lower hedges? Never said he did. God did say this though.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Who has to choose? God told us to choose, we can't say God is making the choice for us, when God said we have a choice. We can choose to be blessed, or cursed. We can choose life, or death. We lower our hedge or we allow God's protection. God would not have lowered the hedge, Job would have had to do that, otherwise God lied about Deu 30:19

I don't think it's about God lying in Deuteronomy 30:19. In fairness, Israel was under the Sinai covenant with God and there were 613 laws which governed Israel as a nation. These laws were given to Israel in one sense so they could be a light to the nations: ASV Deuteronomy 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and understanding in the sight of the peoples that shall hear all these statues, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

The texts bear out that Job was both viewed as and considered a wise man of his time. Yet the text also bears out that Job was a gentile, not a Hebrew. Some would attempt to date Job in the time of Moses, but most date him as a contemporary to Abram. Regardless, it is hard to make the case that Job would have been under the Sinai Covenant and as such, the verse you quoted would not have applied to him.

For example: If we were to apply all of the laws of the Covenant at Sinai against the gentiles, then oh boy would the earth really be a wreck. Take for example the Ark of the Covenant. Only the Levitical Priests were to touch it and if you recall, some of David's men were killed when the Ark slid off the cart while trying to transport it from ?Bethel? to Jersalem because they were in direct violation of the Law in regards to who exactly could touch it. Now then, if all of the 613 laws were universal, then why didn't the Philistines die when they placed the Ark in Dagon's temple? Also, how did they get the Ark on the cart to ship back to Israel? I think your starting to get my point here.

So we look at the scripture you posted within the context it was written and apply it accordingly.

This is not to say that we don't view the story of Job through the lens of Torah, but we certainly don't accuse God of being a liar when taking a bible passage out of context.

As far as it being Job's choice, I don't see any of the calamity being Job's choice per sa'. Relationships are a matter of the heart, not ritual and I believe that is the thrust of what God is trying to show Job.

 

[stovebolts]

Can you see God handing over Job for the same purposes? I believe that is has been sufficiently established as a fair understanding of the text thus far to show that God did indeed hand Job over to Satan for the purpose of gaining dialog on the basis of relationship, and not that of simple obedience. I understand the texts bear this out as well, "Have you seen my servant Job..." It was God who called Job to Satan's attention and it is our intent to reason why. Do you agree?

I agree God spoke first, but from looking at God's point of view, Watching Satan interact with Job and constantly putting in Jobs head that His kids are not serving God, and could be cursing God. I think God already knew why Satan was there, Satan is in the Throne room. I also don't find any permissive Hebrew Statement. They both know why each other are having the conversation, they Both know that through fear the devil has a place. I see it as a done deal by two spiritual beings and Satan felt he had built up enough fear in Job to have that place.

So Satan says, God you put your hands on Job, and God said "Behold" Pay attention dummy, all Job has is in your power.

Satan comes back a second time God tells Satan that you have already tried to trick me or entice me to destroy Job without cause. So, there was no reason God had to let the devil in or Harm Job, as God said it was without cause and stop trying to get me to harm him. You have your place.

Blessings.

YHVH is always spoken of as King within the Biblical texts while the Satan is always referred to as the Prince. As such, a Prince is always subject to the King.

I do not believe this is a battle between the King and his Prince at the expense of one who bears the Image of a King. (Angels have no soul) As such the question remains. Why is God bringing this calamity upon his servant especially when we both know that God was fully in control.
Thoughts?

I hope you have a great weekend. I've got to get out of here and I'm helping with a roof tomorrow.

Take care and I enjoy our conversations!

Jeff