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Brother Mike
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Thank you StoveBolts!!! Until later.
Mike.
Mike.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Deborah13
Member
- Nov 30, 2012
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Hi Jeff,
I had to really think about how I would put into words something that isn't easy for me to explain.
I think my problem is with the interpretation of the word "rah" as evil, when it is speaking of the nature of God. In this particular scripture I do prefer a word like calamity as being the opposite of 'peace'.
Maybe it's just me, although I think others have interpreted this as in evil, "moral evil", which we know God never does. God is holy, just, and good.
Because of this I think God gets blamed for things that are morally evil that were contrived by an 'evil man' and sometimes with the leading of satan himself.
In the desert when God took their protection away (blessing) from the bite of the viper, was this evil. No. It was the removal of a blessing that was special to start with and at the same time He provided a cure.
I just can't find examples of God causing something to happen, that the reason and solution is not clearly there. I don't believe that is how God works. God works in the light not the darkness.
When bad thing happen to the nation of Israel we see God's judgment, the reason why and the solution.
Just like Job, "then I will admit that your own right hand can save you" AND Job did not have a personal relationship with God.
One I learned from you.
I had to really think about how I would put into words something that isn't easy for me to explain.
I think my problem is with the interpretation of the word "rah" as evil, when it is speaking of the nature of God. In this particular scripture I do prefer a word like calamity as being the opposite of 'peace'.
Maybe it's just me, although I think others have interpreted this as in evil, "moral evil", which we know God never does. God is holy, just, and good.
Because of this I think God gets blamed for things that are morally evil that were contrived by an 'evil man' and sometimes with the leading of satan himself.
In the desert when God took their protection away (blessing) from the bite of the viper, was this evil. No. It was the removal of a blessing that was special to start with and at the same time He provided a cure.
I just can't find examples of God causing something to happen, that the reason and solution is not clearly there. I don't believe that is how God works. God works in the light not the darkness.
When bad thing happen to the nation of Israel we see God's judgment, the reason why and the solution.
Just like Job, "then I will admit that your own right hand can save you" AND Job did not have a personal relationship with God.
One I learned from you.
B
Brother Mike
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- Thread starter
- #43
Your an amazing Women Deborah. It's because God is righteous and will not pervert his Word or Judgment. God does not afflict Willingly, or takes pleasure in the death of the wicked. He hates it, it's not His will, but part of being God.
Judgment gives the devil place. Job himself gave the devil a place through constant fear. Only those things Job feared happened to Job. Job 3:25.................. When God smote David's child with sickness, yes God did that but not directly. God had to judge David, so that gave the devil a place. God had no choice but to pass the judgment as He will not pervert Justice. It's not his will, but He's God and has to do what He has to do and sees as right.
Satan caused David to number the troops?
God caused David to number the troops?
Both are scriptures by two different writers. In any case David got in hot water over it.
Both scriptures are correct, David was going to number those troops Hell or High water (Pardon the expression) God had to judge by David's Heart which the Lord knows giving the devil a place.
It's not God's will to inflict unjustly though, it's not even His will that he have to judge in a way that brings pain. He won't pervert His own Word, so he has to.
Blessings.
Mike.
Deborah13
Member
- Nov 30, 2012
- 14,684
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I going over to post something to you in the 'Abomination of Desolation 70 AD' thread that kind of relates to this thread but would be off topic here.
Atonement
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- Sep 13, 2002
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Greetings to you in the love of Jesus
StoveBolts - Couldn't that be Cause and Effect He is speaking of? That has always been my interpretation of that Scripture.
Cause / God creates gravity - Effect / apples fall from trees
Cause / God creates good - Effect / bad exist
Cause / God creates seasons - Effect / time
Cause / God creates clouds - Effect / Rain
Cause / God creates light - Effect / darkness
Cause / God create man & women - Effect / strife
etc etc etc
Let's look at the full passage here
Isaiah 45:5-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6 That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these,"
Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is, that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark), and it is God who is able to cause "well-being" as well as "calamity." Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc. This is consistent with other scriptures. For example:
Exodus 4:11 And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"
This is how I understand that Scripture of Isaiah.
It must be consistent with other Scripture passages, and we see other Scriptures that clearly teach us differently
Psalm 92:15 To declare that the Lord is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.
Habakkuk 1:13 You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, And cannot look on wickedness. Why do You look on those who deal treacherously, And hold Your tongue when the wicked devours. A person more righteous than he?
God Bless
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stovebolts
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- Nov 4, 2004
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Hi [MENTION=90960]Atonement[/MENTION] and [MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]
The Old Testament theologian Samual Lucien Terrien wrote a wonderful OT theology on Presence in Absence. In his discourse, he mentions such texts as Isaiah 8:17 And I will wait upon the Lord, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him. He carries this idea into Psalms 22 which is known as a Psalm of Victory, "My God my God, why hast though forsaken me" which is the cry of Victory for the fulfillment of scriptures and the promise made to Abraham (Genesis 12) when Jesus quotes these very words.
Aside from Samual Terrien, I think there is something to be said in regard to this idea of Presence in Absence. We see in many places in the Psalms where the Psalmists cries out for the face of God to return as they are fed bowles of tears in the absence of God's presence. According to the passage that Brother Mike quoted earlier, there are blessings and curses associated with ones behavior. This is echoed throughout the psalms when Israel is in the deepest dispair as YHVH metaphorically turns his face away from them, and calamity ensues.
As with our discussion earlier about handing one over to Satan, the intent isn't focused primarily as punishment, but rather the intent is to bring about repentance.
I have about 2 more paragraph's I'd like to write, but I'm getting shooed off the computer to go do a roof.... But I'd like to say that sin isn't just about what we do, but equally about what we don't do. Leviticus 23 is a prime example of this where they were told to leave the corners of the fields unharvested for the poor and the widow and the orphan. When one fails to do good for others, a void is left and evil takes it's place. The difference between the evil that is created when one doesn't leave the corners of his fields and the evil that is created when God turns his face away is that the farmer who harvests his corners does so out of greed and indifference to those in need. When God turns his face from his children, it is a chastising that brings about repentance.
Gotta run..
The Old Testament theologian Samual Lucien Terrien wrote a wonderful OT theology on Presence in Absence. In his discourse, he mentions such texts as Isaiah 8:17 And I will wait upon the Lord, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him. He carries this idea into Psalms 22 which is known as a Psalm of Victory, "My God my God, why hast though forsaken me" which is the cry of Victory for the fulfillment of scriptures and the promise made to Abraham (Genesis 12) when Jesus quotes these very words.
Aside from Samual Terrien, I think there is something to be said in regard to this idea of Presence in Absence. We see in many places in the Psalms where the Psalmists cries out for the face of God to return as they are fed bowles of tears in the absence of God's presence. According to the passage that Brother Mike quoted earlier, there are blessings and curses associated with ones behavior. This is echoed throughout the psalms when Israel is in the deepest dispair as YHVH metaphorically turns his face away from them, and calamity ensues.
As with our discussion earlier about handing one over to Satan, the intent isn't focused primarily as punishment, but rather the intent is to bring about repentance.
I have about 2 more paragraph's I'd like to write, but I'm getting shooed off the computer to go do a roof.... But I'd like to say that sin isn't just about what we do, but equally about what we don't do. Leviticus 23 is a prime example of this where they were told to leave the corners of the fields unharvested for the poor and the widow and the orphan. When one fails to do good for others, a void is left and evil takes it's place. The difference between the evil that is created when one doesn't leave the corners of his fields and the evil that is created when God turns his face away is that the farmer who harvests his corners does so out of greed and indifference to those in need. When God turns his face from his children, it is a chastising that brings about repentance.
Gotta run..