John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[chessman]

This is one of them.

Are you a Hebrew brother, a descendant of Abraham and Moses?

Hebrews 3:1-2 (LEB)

Therefore, holy brothers, sharers in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to the one who appointed him, as Moses also was in his household.​

Hebrews 3:12 (LEB) Watch out, brothers, lest there be in some of you an evil, unbelieving heart, with the result that you fall away from the living God.​

You do realize that not all Jewish brothers are saved (have the heart of Christ living in them) right? Some Hebrew brothers had/have an evil/unbelieving heart and unless their's is re-born, they will fall away from the living God. As some did in the desert. The author was simply telling (begging) his Hebrew brothers to watch out for their unbelieving/evil hearts. They better get a new one, from Christ.

There's no loss of salvation taught in this chapter. Maybe you could be more specific and show the exact statement/verse/phrase that leads you to believe this passage warns Christians to not loose their salvation? I don't see it.

 

[Pegasus]

First point:
Jim Parker had quoted the following (and included a link to the source):

... so I just posted the rest of what was at that link about "P - Preservation of the Saints". I did so to see the quote in its full context, which includes an explanation that it specifically does not mean hyper-Calvinism. I neither agree nor disagree with what the Protestant Reformed Churches Association posts on their website, I just like to see ALL quotes in their larger context.


Second Point:
I can see your point and have 'been there, done that, got the shirt'. Let me answer your excellent question with another question. For the exact same person you mention (the believer, who is truly a child of God, who finds himself in sin), how is he better off believing that God is not able to keep his promise? That Jesus may or may not raise him on the last day. That the Holy Spirit is not a deposit guaranteeing the inheritance. That He who began a good work may or may not finish it. ... because it all depends on whether or not that struggling person who finds himself in sin has the strength to persevere.
[I don't see the source of this greater comfort and assurance.]

Let me invite you into my world, because this is not hypothetical for me. I have a close friend named James. Nobody I ever met wants to do the right thing more than James. However James struggles with crack addiction. For more than a decade, I have watched James through his success and his failures. From sleeping in his car, or behind a shopping center, to dragging other people just hanging by their fingernails to the Fellowship where James finds the encouragement to go on.

Sweet Jesus, I don't need to tell James that the drugs are bad. James knows that. I don't need to tell James about sin and repentance and doing the right thing. James knows that, too. James does not come in with excuses. Church is full of people who can't wait to tell me what went wrong and how it isn't their fault, but James is not among them. James returned after being gone for a few months and said "Sorry. I wanted to come back. I knew I needed to come back. I was ashamed. I kept telling myself that I would clean myself up and then I could come back. Then I realized that the only time I ever had the strength to clean myself up, was when I came to church and Jesus gave it to me. So I came back. I invited a few guys. They couldn't make it this week, but I'll keep asking them."

So do I need to tell James about the Vine and the Branches and warn him about the danger of sinning one too many times? That salvation is only for those who hold fast and obey to the end? What I tell James is that we believe in James. Not the man he was, but the man that Jesus died so that he could become. We tell James all of those 'damnable' Calvinist OSAS proof texts ... That no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, and Jesus WILL raise them up at the last day; so if God is not willing to give up on James, then neither are we. We tell James that Holy Spirit in him, the one that gives James the strength to resist, the one James drags with him into the shooting gallery, is a deposit guaranteeing his inheritance, so if the Holy Spirit will not give up on James, then neither will we.

... You know the rest of the verses. You have probably heard them tossed out in spite in a debate and mocked in counterargument often enough. I know I have. For me those verses are assurance that it is not about my holiness and my perseverance ... it is all about the peace that comes from knowing that I only need to try, because through Christ, my effort is good enough. I am now free to try my best with no 'TEST ANXIETY' ... which means that my feeble efforts are given with a heart that is right with God and my offering is found acceptable.

Wow, what a testimony of not giving up hope. You and your church remind me of the Parable of the Forgiving Father God bless you!

 

[atpollard]

A reprobate lifestyle does indicate a lack of salvation and continuing in the faith does indicate evidence of true faith.
But that's not the issue.
Heb 6 describes a person who is saved who becomes apostate.
It clearly shows that it is possible for a saved person to return to his un-saved condition.
God preserves (God's work) those saints who persevere (man's work) to the end.

iakov the fool

I see neither the word "reprobate" nor "apostate" in Hebrews 6. This is not to say "You are wrong", but merely to point out that some sort of interpretation is going to be required since what you claim is not literally and explicitly stated. So let's have at it:

[Hebrews 6:1-3] is the basics being left behind to discuss "perfection"
[Hebrews 6:4-7] are probably the smoking gun verses for you, so let's look closer (and I may ask more questions than make statements):

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I grant that this is a serious warnings and the STATED action (the saved fall away) has the STATED consequence (repentence is impossible). Hands down, I will grant you that appears to be the reading in English of this translation. (I don't read Greek).

Some quick first thoughts:
Are we sure this is something that can happen and not a hypothetical?
I mean, the basic purpose of Hebrews is to counter the idea of accpting Jesus and going back to the Law, so could this be a statement intended to dispell that idea?
Why does verse 6 say "If they shall fall away"? That sounds like something that may or may not be possible rather than a firm warning about something that is possible.
If this is indeed about apostacy and loosing salvation, then how is this leaving the elementary teachings behind? Isn't keeping and loosing salvation included in the initial list rather than a discussion on "perfection"?

Hebrews 6:7-8 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

I guess I need the simple teachings (or another translation) because while these verses are nice, my first reaction is "What does this have to do with the price of tea in China"?

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Doesn't this verse seem to say that the things that accompany salvation are better than the cursing and burning of the previous verses? If these better NOT cursing and burning "ACCOMPANY SALVATION" then is it not reasonable to walk away with:
Salvation = no burning and cursing
burning and cursing = no salvation
Which allows this to be read EITHER way.

Option 1 (Predisposition to Free Will):
Salvation can be lost and (v.4-6) if lost it cannot be restored.

Option 2 (Predisposition to Determinism):
Jesus and the Law are hopelessly incompatible paths to salvation.
Dragging Grace back to the Law is like crucifying Christ all over again.
Salvation and curse/burning are mutually exclusive.


(note, I skipped v 10+ because they seemed to have moved on to a new subject)

 

[Pegasus]

I see neither the word "reprobate" nor "apostate" in Hebrews 6. This is not to say "You are wrong", but merely to point out that some sort of interpretation is going to be required since what you claim is not literally and explicitly stated. So let's have at it:

[Hebrews 6:1-3] is the basics being left behind to discuss "perfection"
[Hebrews 6:4-7] are probably the smoking gun verses for you, so let's look closer (and I may ask more questions than make statements):

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I grant that this is a serious warnings and the STATED action (the saved fall away) has the STATED consequence (repentence is impossible). Hands down, I will grant you that appears to be the reading in English of this translation. (I don't read Greek).

Some quick first thoughts:
Are we sure this is something that can happen and not a hypothetical?
I mean, the basic purpose of Hebrews is to counter the idea of accpting Jesus and going back to the Law, so could this be a statement intended to dispell that idea?
Why does verse 6 say "If they shall fall away"? That sounds like something that may or may not be possible rather than a firm warning about something that is possible.
If this is indeed about apostacy and loosing salvation, then how is this leaving the elementary teachings behind? Isn't keeping and loosing salvation included in the initial list rather than a discussion on "perfection"?

Hebrews 6:7-8 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

I guess I need the simple teachings (or another translation) because while these verses are nice, my first reaction is "What does this have to do with the price of tea in China"?

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Doesn't this verse seem to say that the things that accompany salvation are better than the cursing and burning of the previous verses? If these better NOT cursing and burning "ACCOMPANY SALVATION" then is it not reasonable to walk away with:
Salvation = no burning and cursing
burning and cursing = no salvation
Which allows this to be read EITHER way.

Option 1 (Predisposition to Free Will):
Salvation can be lost and (v.4-6) if lost it cannot be restored.

Option 2 (Predisposition to Determinism):
Jesus and the Law are hopelessly incompatible paths to salvation.
Dragging Grace back to the Law is like crucifying Christ all over again.
Salvation and curse/burning are mutually exclusive.


(note, I skipped v 10+ because they seemed to have moved on to a new subject)

Well exegeted. An interlinear may be instructive as well.

Hebrews Chapter 6

 

[Nathan]

Are you a Hebrew brother, a descendant of Abraham and Moses?

Hebrews 3:1-2 (LEB)

Therefore, holy brothers, sharers in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to the one who appointed him, as Moses also was in his household.​

Hebrews 3:12 (LEB) Watch out, brothers, lest there be in some of you an evil, unbelieving heart, with the result that you fall away from the living God.​

You do realize that not all Jewish brothers are saved (have the heart of Christ living in them) right? Some Hebrew brothers had/have an evil/unbelieving heart and unless their's is re-born, they will fall away from the living God. As some did in the desert. The author was simply telling (begging) his Hebrew brothers to watch out for their unbelieving/evil hearts. They better get a new one, from Christ.

There's no loss of salvation taught in this chapter. Maybe you could be more specific and show the exact statement/verse/phrase that leads you to believe this passage warns Christians to not loose their salvation? I don't see it.

I'd be glad to Sir.

First off, I will state clearly that I do believe the book of Hebrews to be written to the Hebrews. Kind of makes sense anyways. lol

You reference Hebrews 3:1-2. Here is where we first understand who the writer is addressing. We also see how he see's them. First, we see that the writer acknowledges them as holy. We know that unbelievers are never, ever, referred to as holy. It does not matter if they are Jew or Gentile. Only believers are considered holy.

Second, the writer refers to Jesus as the author and high priest of "our" confession. Unbelievers again, either Jew or Gentile, do not confess Jesus as the author and high priest of anything of theirs. Believers on the other hand, do confess Jesus as the author and high priest of their confession. Confession meaning belief, which comes through faith.

Speaking of Moses the author continues on in verse 5-6 saying this;

Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house, if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

The writer says "we are his house" - speaking of Christ, who was typified by Moses. The comma is important here, because it is a requirement to the previous statement "we are his house". We see that the writer has acknowledged, once again, that the readers have confidence and hope in Christ. Again, something unbelievers do not have.

I have already covered verse 12-15 in my previous post, so we can move onto verse 16-19;

For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

Again, typifying Moses as Christ, we see that those in the OT 'followed' Moses - just as only believers follow Christ.

In chapter 4 the writer continues this train of thought, verses 1-3;

Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,

“As I swore in my wrath,

‘They shall not enter my rest,’”

although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

The writer assumes the readers have entered into the rest that Jesus provides. That rest, we know is rest from our own works of righteousness - works of the law. The writer assumes the reader is "united" by faith - to Christ - unlike the ones in the OT that did not believe.

*edit: notice the "us" "them", "we" "they" comparison.

I could go on through the entire book, but that should suffice. The writer is addressing the Hebrews, but he is specifically addressing ones who have professed faith in Christ.

Most important of all we understand that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek. We are all one in Him. So although the writer was addressing the believing Hebrews, and they would better understand the typology used, the same truths are applicable to all believers in Christ.

 

[Nathan]

There is no doubt the writer is concerned for the readers. Some make the assumption that it is concern they won't believe. But a study of the book shows us that the writer speaks to them as believers, assuring them their belief is true, and exhorts them to continue on believing.

 

[chessman]

Maybe you could be more specific and show the exact statement/verse/phrase that leads you to believe this passage warns Christians to not loose their salvation?

I'd be glad to Sir.

Thank you for the reply. However, I read it twice but do not see where, exactly, you believe the author spoke of loss of salvation?

First off, I will state clearly that I do believe the book of Hebrews to be written to the Hebrews. Kind of makes sense anyways

Yes. Do you believe all the Hebrews at that time had, as you say, "faith in christ", though?

First, we see that the writer acknowledges them as holy.

Yes, the Hebrews were/are a holy nation.

Exodus 19:6 (LEB) but you, you will belong to me as a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you will speak to the Israelites.” ​

I don't think God in Exodus or Hebrews meant that every individual Hebrew person was holy though, do you? The nation (as a whole) was set apart.

We know that unbelievers are never, ever, referred to as holy. It does not matter if they are Jew or Gentile. Only believers are considered holy.

The nation had lots of individual unbelievers. Some even took part in crucifying Christ.

Hebrews 3:12 (LEB) Watch out, brothers, lest there be in some of you an evil, unbelieving heart, with the result that you fall away from the living God.​

Some of them clearly were unbelievers.

Second, the writer refers to Jesus as the author and high priest of "our" confession.

Yes, Jesus was/is the author of the compact/agreement made with Abraham and his descendants (Israel, holy brothers).

The word (a noun) means:
an agreement, assent, compact
It's a noun, not a verb.

The writer is addressing the Hebrews, but he is specifically addressing ones who have professed faith in Christ.

Where does he say that? Aren't you assuming that from "confession" and it was an individual's action (as in I confess Christ is Lord)? If so, that's not what the author said nor meant. Provably.

The writer assumes the readers have entered into the rest that Jesus provides.

Where does he assume they all have entered? (But don't let that question get in the way of showing exactly what verse leads you to believe this author was warning of loss of salvation).

He says there remains a promised rest, sure. And there is still that promise available to the Hebrews. But where does he "assume" all the readers have already entered into that rest?

Hebrews 4:1 (LEB) Therefore let us fear, while there remains a promise of entering into his rest, that none of you appear to fall short of it. ​

Then he says it's the ones who have believed, that have entered! And Amen to that.

Hebrews 4:3 For we who have believed enter into rest, just as he has said, “As I swore in my anger, ‘They will never enter into my rest.’” And yet these works have been accomplished from the foundation of the world. ​

 

[Jim Parker]

Are we sure this is something that can happen and not a hypothetical?

Do you think the writer just needed some filler in his document?
Why go to the trouble of expressing the possibility at length if there is no real possibility?

Why does verse 6 say "If they shall fall away"? That sounds like something that may or may not be possible rather than a firm warning about something that is possible.

If it is not possible then there was absolutely no necessity to talk about it.
Since "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"
(2Ti 3:16) I tend to conclude that this bit of scripture is there for a purpose other than wild speculation.

If this is indeed about apostacy and loosing salvation, then how is this leaving the elementary teachings behind?

"Leaving behind" is a way of saying, "tossing them away" or "rejecting them."

Hebrews 6:7-8 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
I guess I need the simple teachings (or another translation) because while these verses are nice, my first reaction is "What does this have to do with the price of tea in China"?

Jesus frequently used agricultural metaphors and parables to illustrate the those of the kingdom produce "good fruit" while those outside produce "weeds, thistles, and thorns."
Such as:
Luk 6:43-44 For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit; for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thorns, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush.

This is literature. Approach it as such and you will understand what He is saying.

Doesn't this verse seem to say that the things that accompany salvation are better than the cursing and burning of the previous verses? If these better NOT cursing and burning "ACCOMPANY SALVATION" then is it not reasonable to walk away with:

I don't know what you are getting at there.

 

[Nathan]

Thank you for the reply. However, I read it twice but do not see where, exactly, you believe the author spoke of loss of salvation?



Yes. Do you believe all the Hebrews at that time had, as you say, "faith in christ", though?


Yes, the Hebrews were/are a holy nation.

Exodus 19:6 (LEB) but you, you will belong to me as a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you will speak to the Israelites.” ​

I don't think God in Exodus or Hebrews meant that every individual Hebrew person was holy though, do you? The nation (as a whole) was set apart.


The nation had lots of individual unbelievers. Some even took part in crucifying Christ.

Hebrews 3:12 (LEB) Watch out, brothers, lest there be in some of you an evil, unbelieving heart, with the result that you fall away from the living God.​

Some of them clearly were unbelievers.



Yes, Jesus was/is the author of the compact/agreement made with Abraham and his descendants (Israel, holy brothers).

The word (a noun) means:
an agreement, assent, compact
It's a noun, not a verb.


Where does he say that? Aren't you assuming that from "confession" and it was an individual's action (as in I confess Christ is Lord)? If so, that's not what the author said nor meant. Provably.


Where does he assume they all have entered? (But don't let that question get in the way of showing exactly what verse leads you to believe this author was warning of loss of salvation).

He says there remains a promised rest, sure. And there is still that promise available to the Hebrews. But where does he "assume" all the readers have already entered into that rest?

Hebrews 4:1 (LEB) Therefore let us fear, while there remains a promise of entering into his rest, that none of you appear to fall short of it. ​

Then he says it's the ones who have believed, that have entered! And Amen to that.

Hebrews 4:3 For we who have believed enter into rest, just as he has said, “As I swore in my anger, ‘They will never enter into my rest.’” And yet these works have been accomplished from the foundation of the world. ​

The my first post, in which you quoted, chapter 3, is where the writer warns of the loss. If your looking for the specific words "you will loose your salvation that you once had", your not going to find it. Neither will you ever find, anywhere in the NT the specific words "you can never loose your salvation".

I'm not good at doing multiple quotes and answering all different kinds of questions all in one post. If you would like, we can take them one at a time. But to compile different thoughts in the same post is quite confusing.

I'll answer the ones about the beginning of chapter 3. Yes, the OT Hebrews were a holy nation, but not holy as individuals. But the writer understands, the same as we, that the nation as a whole rejected Christ. We also know that Christ foretold their "kingdom" would be taken and given to another. Jesus was quite clear, and gave a parable of it. I will say, that I do NOT think that God has cast off the nation of Israel. Paul is quite clear on that.

Matthew 21 is where you find the parable and then at the end you hear Jesus say;
Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

This is all to say, the writer of Hebrews knew this. So yes, I do believe that the writer is addressing them as holy because of their faith in Christ, not because of an OT situational position.

 

[chessman]

Okay, one question at a time.
BTW, I get the impression you are honestly interested in how OSAS adherents (like me) view certain passages (like Heb 3). Cool, I have the same desire to find out exactly what views non-OSAS adherents hold as well. Thus I asked you, your views on the passage.

The my first post, in which you quoted, chapter 3, is where the writer warns of the loss. If your looking for the specific words "you will loose your salvation that you once had", your not going to find it.

In that post (Heb 3:12-15), you did not explain what you believe about it that leads you to believe it teaches (implies) loss of salvation. You merely underlined "brothers". I (we) can only assume you think he meant a Christian brother. Is that what you believe?

I don't. The reason is, context. And no, it's not because I'm strident about OSAS. If someone could show me a passage that taught it (even indirectly), I wouldn't be an OSAS adherent. But back to "brothers" ... Just a quick look at the context shows that he simply means his fellow Hebrew brothers. I happen to believe Paul wrote this letter, but it doesn't matter to the point The author is clearly addressing the Hebrew brothers, the nation of flesh and blood brothers.

Hebrews 1:1 Hebrews 2:11-15

Although God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets, ...
For both the one who sanctifies and the ones who are sanctified are all from one, for which reason he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, “I will proclaim your name to my brothers; in the midst of the assembly I will sing in praise of you.” And again, “I will trust in him.” And again, “Behold, I and the children God has given me.” Therefore, since the children share in blood and flesh, he also in like manner shared in these same things, in order that through death he could destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and could set free these who through fear of death were subject to slavery throughout all their lives. ​

It does not seem reasonable to me to merely assume "brothers" in verse 12 means 'Christian brothers' given his topic. He just got through pointing out that Jesus was incarnated as a Jew. His flesh and blood was Jewish. The Jews are His "brother" as they are the author's. But that doesn't mean (nor even imply) that all Jews were saved.

Hebrews 4:2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as those also did, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united with those who heard it in faith.​

It's faith that saves Hebrews and Gentiles, not the flesh and blood of Abraham.

 

[JLB]

Pastor John MacArthur tells a story of a football coach of his who was in the church most of his life, left to lead a similar life of the pastor friend of yours. Then when terminally ill calls John to speak with him. There was a different result from the William Pope confession I posted. John joyfully gave his coach's eulogy of his repentance a few months later. Keep your phone charged and keep in touch with your friend. You may get a call some day.

It's why I mention the sovereignty of God in salvation. Salvation belongeth unto the LORD (Psalm 3:8). Some of us are like the sheep who wanders out of the pen, only for the Good Shepherd to leave the 99 to go search for the lost sheep. We should take that into account as we have had posters here mention, they could not understand it but God in His Grace scooped them up and brought them back. Praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ!

God is truly merciful. Thank God for your friend who repented.

I just believe there are those who also repent just before they die, and God will not turn them away.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You do realize that not all Jewish brothers are saved (have the heart of Christ living in them) right? Some Hebrew brothers had/have an evil/unbelieving heart and unless their's is re-born, they will fall away from the living God. As some did in the desert. The author was simply telling (begging) his Hebrew brothers to watch out for their unbelieving/evil hearts. They better get a new one, from Christ.

The writer of the book of Hebrews was addressing Hebrew Christians.

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
Hebrews 3:1

The writer makes it clear that those who continue to the end, are of the house of Christ,

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Hebrews 3:5-6


He says it again here a few verses later to his Christian brothers, who were being persuaded by unbelieving Jews, to turn back to Judaism.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



This is the same warning Jesus gave, using the same wording, concerning departing from Christ and turning back to Judaism, while being persecuted by unbelieving Jews.


11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13


JLB

 

[Nathan]

Okay, one question at a time.
BTW, I get the impression you are honestly interested in how OSAS adherents (like me) view certain passages (like Heb 3). Cool, I have the same desire to find out exactly what views non-OSAS adherents hold as well. Thus I asked you, your views on the passage.



In that post (Heb 3:12-15), you did not explain what you believe about it that leads you to believe it teaches (implies) loss of salvation. You merely underlined "brothers". I (we) can only assume you think he meant a Christian brother. Is that what you believe?

I don't. The reason is, context. And no, it's not because I'm strident about OSAS. If someone could show me a passage that taught it (even indirectly), I wouldn't be an OSAS adherent. But back to "brothers" ... Just a quick look at the context shows that he simply means his fellow Hebrew brothers. I happen to believe Paul wrote this letter, but it doesn't matter to the point The author is clearly addressing the Hebrew brothers, the nation of flesh and blood brothers.

Hebrews 1:1 Hebrews 2:11-15

Although God spoke long ago in many parts and in many ways to the fathers by the prophets, ...
For both the one who sanctifies and the ones who are sanctified are all from one, for which reason he is not ashamed to call them brothers, saying, “I will proclaim your name to my brothers; in the midst of the assembly I will sing in praise of you.” And again, “I will trust in him.” And again, “Behold, I and the children God has given me.” Therefore, since the children share in blood and flesh, he also in like manner shared in these same things, in order that through death he could destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and could set free these who through fear of death were subject to slavery throughout all their lives. ​

It does not seem reasonable to me to merely assume "brothers" in verse 12 means 'Christian brothers' given his topic. He just got through pointing out that Jesus was incarnated as a Jew. His flesh and blood was Jewish. The Jews are His "brother" as they are the author's. But that doesn't mean (nor even imply) that all Jews were saved.

Hebrews 4:2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as those also did, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united with those who heard it in faith.​

It's faith that saves Hebrews and Gentiles, not the flesh and blood of Abraham.

You are correct, I am honestly interested. I hope that it does not come across as I want to know because I am leaning that way though. I don't want people to think I am doing a switcheroo.

Yes, I do believe that the writer is speaking to believers when he says brothers. That is not only because of the word he used there, but because of the other words I pointed out at the beginning of chapter 3. I do understand that Hebrews would call each other "brothers", but the context of the passage does not indicate that he is speaking to unbelievers. The context indicates he is speaking to believer brothers who are Hebrews.

Christ set only believers free, not unbelievers - regardless if they are Hebrews or not. Unless you hold to the notion that all the world will be saved regardless. If that's the case then I simply will not debate that point. But I do not get that indication from you. We cannot just stop at chapter 3 to gain our context. We have to move on because the writer did not stop after that and then say he was talking to another group. Meaning that, we can look at the following chapters to see who he is talking about.

All to often the Bible is divided up into verses and chapters thinking they make individual statements that are kind of related to others, but not necessarily. I know you know this. So there is no reason to doubt that the following chapters would not be the same people he is talking to.

The writer continues his thoughts on through chapter 4 and into 5. Then notice what he says at the end of chapter 5;

Hebrews 5:11-14
About this we have much to say, and it is chard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

"About this" refers back to all the other stuff he just said. Then the writer goes on to say they ought to be teachers by now.

Surely you do not believe he is still talking to unbelievers do you? I cannot see how the writer would be "hoping" that they were believers, and addressing them in this way.

Again, I believe with my whole heart the writer is talking to Hebrews. But in context, there can be no doubt that he is talking to them as fellow believers, not just brothers by natural birth.

 

[chessman]

I am honestly interested. I hope that it does not come across as I want to know because I am leaning that way though. I don't want people to think I am doing a switcheroo.

No, you are an excellent communicator. And you make some excellent points. I've enjoyed reading your posts on this topic and believe you make good Biblical points in support of your position. I do not get the impression you are 'leaning that way'.

Nor am I posting to change anyone's mind. Nothing but a clear (potentially even clearer) understanding of the Scripture(s) is going to change any of us anyway (at least I hope not). Thus, I ask people questions to see if they've seen something in Scripture that I've overlooked. I would hope that if you (or I) were convicted by Scripture though, a change is in order.

You asked the question the other day about teaching "false doctrine". I drafted my answer but deleted it because I didn't want to interfere with others that had input. But my view is; teach what you believe to be true and can show Biblically. And if you (or I) are mistaken, I think God understands. And yes, I am aware it's serious business to be a Bible teacher. But I doubt there has ever been but one Perfect at it. And it's not me!

The writer continues his thoughts on through chapter 4 and into 5. Then notice what he says at the end of chapter 5; ..."About this" refers back to all the other stuff he just said.

Good point. I agree. Except "about this", to me, specifically refers back to what he just got through saying about Jesus. Namely

Hebrews 5:8-9 (LEB) Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered, and being perfected, he became the source of eternal salvation to all those who obey him,​

The Son of God learning obedience (or anything else for that matter) versus knowing it eternally and/or becoming the source of eternal salvation versus always being IT, is deep/mature doctrine indeed. You better have your big boy pants on when teaching about that.

Believing God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, on the otherhand, is pretty straightforward.

But if I thought "about this" was referring back to Chapter 3, then why not Chapter 1-2???

Hebrews 2:14-15 (LEB) Therefore, since the children share in blood and flesh, he also in like manner shared in these same things, in order that through death he could destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and could set free these who through fear of death were subject to slavery throughout all their lives.
​

I think the point the author was making in Chapter 3 was clear enough that the Israelites are his blood/flesh brothers. And Jesus was too.

I believe with my whole heart the writer is talking to Hebrews. But in context, there can be no doubt that he is talking to them as fellow believers, not just brothers by natural birth.

Cool. I agree he was talking to Hebrews (and thus called them brothers) but disagree that he meant all were fellow believers.


BTW;

Surely you do not believe he is still talking to unbelievers do you?

I never said I believed he was talking to unbelievers. I believe he was telling his brothers (natural brothers, some saved some not) to watch out for other natural brothers that had an unbelieving/evil heart.

Hebrews 3:12 (LEB) Watch out, brothers, lest there be in some of you an evil, unbelieving heart, with the result that you fall away from the living God. ​

 

[Nathan]

BTW;

I never said I believed he was talking to unbelievers. I believe he was telling his brothers (natural brothers, some saved some not) to watch out for other natural brothers that had an unbelieving/evil heart.

Hebrews 3:12 (LEB) Watch out, brothers, lest there be in some of you an evil, unbelieving heart, with the result that you fall away from the living God. ​

What does "fall away from" mean to you? Can unbelievers fall away from God? Wouldn't "away from" indicate that they were near Him?

King James Version uses the word "departing" instead of falling. That seems to bring new light on it. So it would seem that they were not just "coming close", but rather "there".

How can I depart from somewhere I am not already at? An airplane has a departure time from the airport. If your not at the airport, it seem illogical you could depart from there. Right?

 

[JLB]

How can I depart from somewhere I am not already at?

That is the nail in the coffin.

 

[chessman]

What does "fall away from" mean to you?

Same as it means to you, I suppose. To depart from. In this case, to depart from God.

A lot of Hebrew brothers have and continue to "fall away" (depart from) from the living God.

Why, do you think it means to loose your salvation or something?

Hebrews 3:12 Watch out, brothers, lest there be in some of you an evil, unbelieving heart, with the result that you fall away from the living God.​

It's a crying shame. Their are some Hebrew brothers' hearts that are so unbelievably hard and evil that the result is therefore sure. They will never enter His rest.

On the otherhand, some Hebrew brothers have believed and have entered His rest.

Hebrews 4:3 (LEB) For we who have believed enter into rest, just as he has said, “As I swore in my anger, ‘They will never enter into my rest.’



And yet these works have been accomplished from the foundation of the world.​

 

[Nathan]

Same as it means to you, I suppose. To depart from. In this case, to depart from God.

A lot of Hebrew brothers have and continue to "fall away" (depart from) from the living God.

Why, do you think it means to loose your salvation or something?

Hebrews 3:12 Watch out, brothers, lest there be in some of you an evil, unbelieving heart, with the result that you fall away from the living God.​

It's a crying shame. Their are some Hebrew brothers' hearts that are so unbelievably hard and evil that the result is therefore sure. They will never enter His rest.

On the otherhand, some Hebrew brothers have believed and have entered His rest.

Hebrews 4:3 (LEB) For we who have believed enter into rest, just as he has said, “As I swore in my anger, ‘They will never enter into my rest.’



And yet these works have been accomplished from the foundation of the world.​

I do not see how a unbeliever, Hebrew or Gentile, is with God?

I do not think it means to "loose" salvation - in that tense. I think it means that they turn from the path that leads to salvation. Faith leads to Salvation. Something cannot lead to something else, if it already there - anymore than something can leave somewhere they are not.

Can you point me to where I can find that the Hebrews, believers and unbelievers alike, are with God?

 

[Nathan]

I would copy and paste, and I will if it helps, but the understanding that the Hebrews(Israel) is at the present time 'cut off' from God - except the ones who believe like we do - is a rather long passage.

Paul covers it quite clearly in Romans chapters 10 and 11.

 

[Jim Parker]

The my first post, in which you quoted, chapter 3, is where the writer warns of the loss. If your looking for the specific words "you will loose your salvation that you once had", your not going to find it. Neither will you ever find, anywhere in the NT the specific words "you can never loose your salvation".

I'm not good at doing multiple quotes and answering all different kinds of questions all in one post. If you would like, we can take them one at a time. But to compile different thoughts in the same post is quite confusing.

I'll answer the ones about the beginning of chapter 3. Yes, the OT Hebrews were a holy nation, but not holy as individuals. But the writer understands, the same as we, that the nation as a whole rejected Christ. We also know that Christ foretold their "kingdom" would be taken and given to another. Jesus was quite clear, and gave a parable of it. I will say, that I do NOT think that God has cast off the nation of Israel. Paul is quite clear on that.

Matthew 21 is where you find the parable and then at the end you hear Jesus say;
Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

This is all to say, the writer of Hebrews knew this. So yes, I do believe that the writer is addressing them as holy because of their faith in Christ, not because of an OT situational position.

Sounds right to me.