John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[Nathan]

The people who will come to Christ, are known by God before they are born.
This omnipotent ability of Father God to know all things from the "beginning to the end" is defined as "foreknowledge", or, to say, to know what will be before it happens.
And so, all who will come To Christ, since time began, and until the last Soul is saved, are known as the '"elect".
And it is predestined or predetermined that all who are saved will be "conformed to the image of Christ".
So that is the "predestined" part of the "elect" who are known by God's foreknowledge of all things.

"Like" "Like"

This aspect of God is what gives me the greatest awe of His power. It also makes me so dumbfounded to why so many turn away from His grace.

 

[Nathan]

differences of opinion make for good discussion there are more words in that passage then just " raised thee up "

They do. How boring would it be if we were all the same, like robots?

 

[reba]

 

[chessman]

The words: "after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ," describes someone who is "saved."

So people that have a knowledge of Jesus are "saved" on your view? (I quoted you, not Peter, so I used quotation marks. Not quite sure who you were quoting when you used them, but it wasn't Peter)

Didn't the Pharisees (or Satan for that matter) have a knowledge of Jesus? I thought someone had to actually confess Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead to be "saved".

Romans 10:9 (LEB) that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. ​

How come Peter said our Lord and not their Lord? That is, if Jesus was their Lord.

How does a person escape the wickedness of the world? Is there another way but through Christ?

So if someone were participating in occult practices (the way of Balaam) and stopped for a while, they are saved?

It has to do with 2 Peter because of what he said. That they had become entangled in sin again. The "again" means they had been set free from sin.

They were sinless for a while?

 

[Jim Parker]

New Living Translation (not the most scholarly, I know, but translated by experts

Just a point: Th3e NLT "translates" thoughts rather than the Greek/Hebrew words. That said, it is not a "translation" but a "paraphrase."
For what it's worth...

 

[atpollard]

Just a point: Th3e NLT "translates" thoughts rather than the Greek/Hebrew words. That said, it is not a "translation" but a "paraphrase."
For what it's worth...

Point acknowledged ... then it is a paraphrase by people who read Greek (where I do not).

 

[Jim Parker]

Point acknowledged ... then it is a paraphrase by people who read Greek (where I do not).

I imagine it's pretty good.
My only concern is, when they are "translating thoughts", how much is the author's thought and how much is what they think it should mean?
Translation is not an easy task.

 

[atpollard]

Nathan is right.
What does the word "again" mean to you?

That that verse is not speaking about the evil false teachers, thus the false teachers who are damned were NEVER saved (because the false teachers never believed) and those who have escaped from the sinful world into the church only to fall into the trap of the false teachers may yet be restored by a Jesus who will lose none of His sheep, but has promised to complete the work begun in them and raise them on the last day. Unless their belief was a dead faith that cannot save (which James warns about).

That's what 'again' means to me.

 

[Nathan]

So if someone were participating in occult practices (the way of Balaam) and stopped for a while, they are saved?



They were sinless for a while?

Loaded question.

If I was to answer directly, to the exact question you ask, then it would be a no.

No one other than Christ is sinless, or ever will be, till eternity. Not committing a sin at a given time does not constitute sinlessness. If that were so, then we would have to know what that timeframe is in order to determine if it's been met.

The basis is that a believer is no longer entrapped in sin. That is the whole matter of being "saved", as in, that is the present tense meaning of the word. We are saved from sin, we will be saved from wrath.

Romans 6:5-11
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him.
10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Nathan]

That that verse is not speaking about the evil false teachers, thus the false teachers who are damned were NEVER saved (because the false teachers never believed) and those who have escaped from the sinful world into the church only to fall into the trap of the false teachers may yet be restored by a Jesus who will lose none of His sheep, but has promised to complete the work begun in them and raise them on the last day. Unless their belief was a dead faith that cannot save (which James warns about).

That's what 'again' means to me.

How does a person know if their belief is the real deal, not a dead faith?

 

[chessman]

Not committing a sin at a given time does not constitute sinlessness.

Correct.
Nor does escaping occult practices (sin) for a while save someone.

Loaded question.

Loaded with thought enticing consequences for what Peter meant by; "after they have escaped from the defilements of the world".

 

[Nathan]

Question - do those who believe in OSAS think that those who don't, and teach as such, are teaching false doctrine?

This may seem crazy, but I had a moment when a thought came to my head.

Why are there so many passages with warning to believers about falling back into sin - loosing faith - and those who teach so?

While there are not any warnings written to believers to watch out for those who teach you can loose your salvation?

If it were a false doctrine, wouldn't it be addressed to be such, somewhere in the NT?

Or have I missed the passages that do teach believers to watch out for teachers preaching you can loose your salvation/faith?

I can be wrong. It's a serious question. I'll start looking myself first thing in the morning.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Question - do those who believe in OSAS think that those who don't, and teach as such, are teaching false doctrine?

This may seem crazy, but I had a moment when a thought came to my head.

Why are there so many passages with warning to believers about falling back into sin - loosing faith - and those who teach so?

While there are not any warnings written to believers to watch out for those who teach you can loose your salvation?

If it were a false doctrine, wouldn't it be addressed to be such, somewhere in the NT?

Or have I missed the passages that do teach believers to watch out for teachers preaching you can loose your salvation/faith?

I can be wrong. It's a serious question. I'll start looking myself first thing in the morning.

I don't think much about those who hold to OSNAS. People have different perspectives on many things. I prefer to focus on the promises of God.
I recently did a short study on what it means to shipwrecks one's faith. It almost sound like someone who shipwrecks their faith has given up on it. Lost it. But I don't think that's the case. One's faith ought to produce fruit of some kind. Fruit comes in many forms. Loving your wife as Christ loved the church would be a fruit. Same with loving others. Having an overall Christ-like attitude and demeanor. Serving others is a fruit if it's motivated by the Spirit. Let's say one is a pastor, having felt the call of God they went to school and built up a ministry. Then one day they fell into sin. All their schooling, hard work, and ministry, gone in a moment of passion. That's a shipwrecked faith. They can pick themselves back up and start again, but what they had before is now shipwrecked. Reputation is forever tainted. I know at least three pastors whose stories are exactly that. Which is why I think we're told so often to keep our eyes on the prize. Fleeting moments of sin cause a lifetime of destruction and can't be undone. Sin has its consequences. Divorce, ruined reputations, not to mention giving non believers reasons to scoff.

 

[Pegasus]

Isn't the correct term Eternal Security?

And Pegasus, it's like setting the car on fire.

Indeed and to which the apostle John said:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. (1 John 2:19)

It pains my heart to say so...but visit Christian Forums dot com sometime and see the multitude of self proclaimed atheists give their testimony of being Christian before burning the car. One painful fact of most of them is their proclamation they did not "feel anything" that they felt empty. However according to them, they made a conscious decision to leave the faith and some have become sworn enemies against anything to do with Christ. Some so zealous in their non faith to drag as many souls with them as the birds gobbling up the seeds in the parable of the shower. Some seeding their own doubt to be the thorns which choke out the roots.

Is that someone losing their salvation. I don't know for sure. I do know the apostle John gives us a very sobering statement as I posited above.

We discuss theological dispositions here but true human souls perish each day. Our energies should be on preaching the Gospel which will heal these persons.

For a lost soul is a terrible reality as our Lord does not want to see anyone perish. This is all too real and as evidenced by some tortured souls on their death bed as in William Pope:

William Pope was at one time a member of the Methodist Church and seemingly a saved and happy man. His wife, a devoted Christian, died triumphantly. After her death, however, his zeal for religion declined, and by associating with backslidden hypocrites he apostatised and walked the path of spiritual ruin. His companions even professed to believe in the redemption of devils. William admired them, visited pubs with them and in time became a complete drunkard. He finally became a disciple of Thomas Paine and associated with a number of deistical people. They would assemble together on Sundays to confirm each other in their infidelity and often amused themselves by throwing the Word of God on the floor, kicking it around the room and treading it under their feet.

One day William took seriously ill with tuberculosis. Mr. Rhodes visited him, exhorted him to repentance and confidence in the Almighty Saviour, and also prayed with him before leaving. In the evening, William again sent for Mr. Rhodes. He found William in the utmost distress, overwhelmed with bitter anguish and despair. He endeavoured to encourage him by mentioning several cases in which God had saved the greatest of sinners, but he answered, “No case of any that has been mentioned is comparable to mine. I have no contrition; I cannot repent. God will damn me! I know the day of grace is lost.”

Mr. Rhodes asked him if he had ever really known anything of the mercy and love of God. “O yes,” he replied, “many years ago I truly repented and sought the Lord and found peace and happiness. But I have turned my back on Him, scoffed at Him and now I am damned forever! I know the day of grace is past, gone, never more to return! I cannot pray; my heart is quite hardened. I have no desire to receive any blessing at the hand of God.” He then cried out, “Oh, the hell, the torment, the fire that I feel within me! Oh, eternity! eternity! To dwell forever with devils and damned spirits in the burning lake must be my portion – and justly so!”

William often and loudly repeated the reasons for his impending doom: “I have crucified the Son of God afresh, and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing! Oh, that wicked and horrible deed of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which I know I have committed.” He was often heard to exclaim, “I want nothing but hell! Come, o devil, and take me!” At another time he said, “Oh, what a terrible thing it is! Once I could, and would not; now I want and cannot!” He declared that he was best satisfied when cursing. He passed away – without God.

 

[Nathan]

Indeed and to which the apostle John said:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. (1 John 2:19)

It pains my heart to say so...but visit Christian Forums dot com sometime and see the multitude of self proclaimed atheists give their testimony of being Christian before burning the car. One painful fact of most of them is their proclamation they did not "feel anything" that they felt empty. However according to them, they made a conscious decision to leave the faith and some have become sworn enemies against anything to do with Christ. Some so zealous in their non faith to drag as many souls with them as the birds gobbling up the seeds in the parable of the shower. Some seeding their own doubt to be the thorns which choke out the roots.

Is that someone losing their salvation. I don't know for sure. I do know the apostle John gives us a very sobering statement as I posited above.

We discuss theological dispositions here but true human souls perish each day. Our energies should be on preaching the Gospel which will heal these persons.

For a lost soul is a terrible reality as our Lord does not want to see anyone perish. This is all too real and as evidenced by some tortured souls on their death bed as in William Pope:

William Pope was at one time a member of the Methodist Church and seemingly a saved and happy man. His wife, a devoted Christian, died triumphantly. After her death, however, his zeal for religion declined, and by associating with backslidden hypocrites he apostatised and walked the path of spiritual ruin. His companions even professed to believe in the redemption of devils. William admired them, visited pubs with them and in time became a complete drunkard. He finally became a disciple of Thomas Paine and associated with a number of deistical people. They would assemble together on Sundays to confirm each other in their infidelity and often amused themselves by throwing the Word of God on the floor, kicking it around the room and treading it under their feet.

One day William took seriously ill with tuberculosis. Mr. Rhodes visited him, exhorted him to repentance and confidence in the Almighty Saviour, and also prayed with him before leaving. In the evening, William again sent for Mr. Rhodes. He found William in the utmost distress, overwhelmed with bitter anguish and despair. He endeavoured to encourage him by mentioning several cases in which God had saved the greatest of sinners, but he answered, “No case of any that has been mentioned is comparable to mine. I have no contrition; I cannot repent. God will damn me! I know the day of grace is lost.”

Mr. Rhodes asked him if he had ever really known anything of the mercy and love of God. “O yes,” he replied, “many years ago I truly repented and sought the Lord and found peace and happiness. But I have turned my back on Him, scoffed at Him and now I am damned forever! I know the day of grace is past, gone, never more to return! I cannot pray; my heart is quite hardened. I have no desire to receive any blessing at the hand of God.” He then cried out, “Oh, the hell, the torment, the fire that I feel within me! Oh, eternity! eternity! To dwell forever with devils and damned spirits in the burning lake must be my portion – and justly so!”

William often and loudly repeated the reasons for his impending doom: “I have crucified the Son of God afresh, and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing! Oh, that wicked and horrible deed of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which I know I have committed.” He was often heard to exclaim, “I want nothing but hell! Come, o devil, and take me!” At another time he said, “Oh, what a terrible thing it is! Once I could, and would not; now I want and cannot!” He declared that he was best satisfied when cursing. He passed away – without God.

That would be similar to my story, the way I felt. It was interesting to read it from this view.

My story took a different path in the end. Of course, I'm not on my death bed yet. But when I came to that point of considering God could not possibly forgive me, my heart is hard, I have willfully sinned and now there is no repentance for me.........

Well, let's just say that God gave me the strength to break through that darkness. What the difference is between one who comes through those times, and one who doesn't, I don't know.

People can say, "oh, they weren't saved to begin with", but only God knows that. I'd rather not put myself in His place.

Others might say, "don't worry, God knew his heart, he will be saved". That one is hard to understand personally.

All I know is the warnings given that sin can lead a person there. So if someone comes along and has gone down this path, I hope that they can understand that Gods grace is a fountain for all those who believe. It's not works done by us that give us this grace, and it's not works done by us that cut us off.

In that story I see a man who knew he had done great wrong. He felt so guilty that he lost sight of who forgives and thought he had to do something to earn it. Because no one can ever earn it, his heart was never satisfied.

 

[atpollard]

How does a person know if their belief is the real deal, not a dead faith?

Charles H. Spurgeon, Morning and Evening, for March 6
Ye must be born again. —John 3:7
Regeneration is a subject which lies at the very basis of salvation, and we should be very diligent to take heed that we really are "born again," for there are many who fancy they are, who are not. Be assured that the name of a Christian is not the nature of a Christian; and that being born in a Christian land, and being recognized as professing the Christian religion is of no avail whatever, unless there be something more added to it-the being "born again," is a matter so mysterious, that human words cannot describe it. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." Nevertheless, it is a change which is known and felt: known by works of holiness, and felt by a gracious experience. This great work is supernatural. It is not an operation which a man performs for himself: a new principle is infused, which works in the heart, renews the soul, and affects the entire man. It is not a change of my name, but a renewal of my nature, so that I am not the man I used to be, but a new man in Christ Jesus. To wash and dress a corpse is a far different thing from making it alive: man can do the one, God alone can do the other. If you have then, been "born again," your acknowledgment will be, "O Lord Jesus, the everlasting Father, Thou art my spiritual Parent; unless Thy Spirit had breathed into me the breath of a new, holy, and spiritual life, I had been to this day 'dead in trespasses and sins.' My heavenly life is wholly derived from Thee, to Thee I ascribe it. 'My life is hid with Christ in God.' It is no longer I who live, but Christ who liveth in me." May the Lord enable us to be well assured on this vital point, for to be unregenerate is to be unsaved, unpardoned, without God, and without hope.

What he said. Me, too.

I also offer this thought ...
Romans 6:19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Every life that I have encountered, including mine, has a vector ... a trajectory ... is moving in a direction. No one ever really appears to be at rest, staying the same and remaining unchanged over time. These verses, like the fruit of the Spirit and acts of the Flesh, paint a picture of two opposite directions of travel. So too, in my experience, is a life with and without Christ. The living and dead faith will present movement in two completely different directions ... towards and away from love (agape - self sacrifice for the benefit of another).

 

[Nathan]

Ye must be born again. —John 3:7
Regeneration is a subject which lies at the very basis of salvation, and we should be very diligent to take heed that we really are "born again," for there are many who fancy they are, who are not. Be assured that the name of a Christian is not the nature of a Christian; and that being born in a Christian land, and being recognized as professing the Christian religion is of no avail whatever, unless there be something more added to it-the being "born again," is a matter so mysterious, that human words cannot describe it. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." Nevertheless, it is a change which is known and felt: known by works of holiness, and felt by a gracious experience. This great work is supernatural. It is not an operation which a man performs for himself: a new principle is infused, which works in the heart, renews the soul, and affects the entire man. It is not a change of my name, but a renewal of my nature, so that I am not the man I used to be, but a new man in Christ Jesus. To wash and dress a corpse is a far different thing from making it alive: man can do the one, God alone can do the other. If you have then, been "born again," your acknowledgment will be, "O Lord Jesus, the everlasting Father, Thou art my spiritual Parent; unless Thy Spirit had breathed into me the breath of a new, holy, and spiritual life, I had been to this day 'dead in trespasses and sins.' My heavenly life is wholly derived from Thee, to Thee I ascribe it. 'My life is hid with Christ in God.' It is no longer I who live, but Christ who liveth in me." May the Lord enable us to be well assured on this vital point, for to be unregenerate is to be unsaved, unpardoned, without God, and without hope.
(Charles H. Spurgeon, Morning and Evening, for March 6)

What he said. Me, too.

I also offer this thought ...
Romans 6:19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.

2 Corinthians 3:18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Every life that I have encountered, including mine, has a vector ... a trajectory ... is moving in a direction. No one ever really appears to be at rest, staying the same and remaining unchanged over time. These verses, like the fruit of the Spirit and acts of the Flesh, paint a picture of two opposite directions of travel. So too, in my experience, is a life with and without Christ. The living and dead faith will present movement in two completely different directions ... towards and away from love (agape - self sacrifice for the benefit of another).

I believe your correct in your recollection of the trajectory of life. That is what repentance is all about. The word for repentance is made up from two words. One means to perceive and think, the other against or with. So quite literally, it is either one way or the other. That is why when we repent of our sins it is not meant as just a "one time" event. Repentance, in the Bible, was deemed a choice to change directions of ones thoughts, ideas, attitude, etc - and - continue in that direction. A life long choice, not a moment in time choice. Which is why you hear the words Jesus spoke so plainly in Luke 5:32;

I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

Also, John warned the Pharisee's coming to be baptized to "bear fruits in keeping with repentance". In other words, don't think that its a one time change of mind, a 'feeling sorry' emotion, about your sin. Its a life long choice that you are a sinner in need of a savior. The Pharisee's, like many others, thought it was simply a ritual or something of that sort that they needed to do - not live.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Indeed and to which the apostle John said:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. (1 John 2:19)

It pains my heart to say so...but visit Christian Forums dot com sometime and see the multitude of self proclaimed atheists give their testimony of being Christian before burning the car. One painful fact of most of them is their proclamation they did not "feel anything" that they felt empty. However according to them, they made a conscious decision to leave the faith and some have become sworn enemies against anything to do with Christ. Some so zealous in their non faith to drag as many souls with them as the birds gobbling up the seeds in the parable of the shower. Some seeding their own doubt to be the thorns which choke out the roots.

Is that someone losing their salvation. I don't know for sure. I do know the apostle John gives us a very sobering statement as I posited above.

We discuss theological dispositions here but true human souls perish each day. Our energies should be on preaching the Gospel which will heal these persons.

For a lost soul is a terrible reality as our Lord does not want to see anyone perish. This is all too real and as evidenced by some tortured souls on their death bed as in William Pope:

William Pope was at one time a member of the Methodist Church and seemingly a saved and happy man. His wife, a devoted Christian, died triumphantly. After her death, however, his zeal for religion declined, and by associating with backslidden hypocrites he apostatised and walked the path of spiritual ruin. His companions even professed to believe in the redemption of devils. William admired them, visited pubs with them and in time became a complete drunkard. He finally became a disciple of Thomas Paine and associated with a number of deistical people. They would assemble together on Sundays to confirm each other in their infidelity and often amused themselves by throwing the Word of God on the floor, kicking it around the room and treading it under their feet.

One day William took seriously ill with tuberculosis. Mr. Rhodes visited him, exhorted him to repentance and confidence in the Almighty Saviour, and also prayed with him before leaving. In the evening, William again sent for Mr. Rhodes. He found William in the utmost distress, overwhelmed with bitter anguish and despair. He endeavoured to encourage him by mentioning several cases in which God had saved the greatest of sinners, but he answered, “No case of any that has been mentioned is comparable to mine. I have no contrition; I cannot repent. God will damn me! I know the day of grace is lost.”

Mr. Rhodes asked him if he had ever really known anything of the mercy and love of God. “O yes,” he replied, “many years ago I truly repented and sought the Lord and found peace and happiness. But I have turned my back on Him, scoffed at Him and now I am damned forever! I know the day of grace is past, gone, never more to return! I cannot pray; my heart is quite hardened. I have no desire to receive any blessing at the hand of God.” He then cried out, “Oh, the hell, the torment, the fire that I feel within me! Oh, eternity! eternity! To dwell forever with devils and damned spirits in the burning lake must be my portion – and justly so!”

William often and loudly repeated the reasons for his impending doom: “I have crucified the Son of God afresh, and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing! Oh, that wicked and horrible deed of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which I know I have committed.” He was often heard to exclaim, “I want nothing but hell! Come, o devil, and take me!” At another time he said, “Oh, what a terrible thing it is! Once I could, and would not; now I want and cannot!” He declared that he was best satisfied when cursing. He passed away – without God.

a very sobering read. I've never heard this story. Frightening really. I have a pastor friend who walked away from his family after 20 plus years of faithful ministry. He's divorced, having cheated on his wife. He picked up the guitar, plays the blues and hangs out with his music buddies in the bars. He's two years younger than I. Mid life crisis? Don't know. He won't respond to any of my messages. :/ I still pray God will bring him to his senses.

 

[Pegasus]

That would be similar to my story, the way I felt. It was interesting to read it from this view.

My story took a different path in the end. Of course, I'm not on my death bed yet. But when I came to that point of considering God could not possibly forgive me, my heart is hard, I have willfully sinned and now there is no repentance for me.........

Well, let's just say that God gave me the strength to break through that darkness. What the difference is between one who comes through those times, and one who doesn't, I don't know.

People can say, "oh, they weren't saved to begin with", but only God knows that. I'd rather not put myself in His place.

Others might say, "don't worry, God knew his heart, he will be saved". That one is hard to understand personally.

All I know is the warnings given that sin can lead a person there. So if someone comes along and has gone down this path, I hope that they can understand that Gods grace is a fountain for all those who believe. It's not works done by us that give us this grace, and it's not works done by us that cut us off.

In that story I see a man who knew he had done great wrong. He felt so guilty that he lost sight of who forgives and thought he had to do something to earn it. Because no one can ever earn it, his heart was never satisfied.

Bolded above...Praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ as His Grace and Peace is immeasurable!

 

[Nathan]

Bolded above...Praise be to our Lord Jesus Christ as His Grace and Peace is immeasurable!

Amen to that.