John 15:1-6 and loss of slvation

[Randy]

Many of Jesus's disciples left Him because of His teachings. He knew from the start those that didn't believe in Him and would later betray Him. He stated this is why I said no one came come to me unless the Father enables them. (grace)
Apparently being the bread of life that came down from heaven that one may eat and NEVER die was too hard for them to accept.
Ref John 6
It was then He asked the 12 if they also wanted to leave as well.
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

One who is in Him will bear much fruit. Unless one is in Him, they cannot bear any fruit.
No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

The diciples who left Jesus were cut off from Him. They could not believe for the Father had not enabled them. They had no fruit.

Those who are sealed in Christ by the Spirit will bear much fruit. For all that the Father gives Him will come to Him. It's His Fathers will that He lose none of them the FATHER has given Him but raise them up on the last day.

All the warnings given in the NT about sin and leaving the darkness that is in this world behind is part of the TRUTH those in Him hold to.

 

[GodsGrace]

You posted your opinion.
GRACE that Paul wrote about. Paul stated He was set aside from the womb.
Do you think Paul could have been deceived away from Christ? We were given the very same Spirit.
How do you read this? Apparently, God can keep safe His own even in the most sinful of environments. Those 7000 were not deceived away to bow to false Gods. Not by my might nor by my power but by My Spirit says the Lord.

Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him.”


I'm not. We are not free to sin. We can never be deceived away from the truth if the Spirit of Christ is in us. All the warnings are valid. But Jesus's sheep hear His voice and follow Him.
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

I have the Spirit of Christ in me. I know Him and have had answers to prayers with words in my mind via the Spirit.
I can never UNKNOW the truth. I keep my conscience clear before God as one who fears God. I'm not free to sin. I understand all the eternal consequences and warnings taught and take them to heart. I am sealed in Christ by the Spirit. Did you think I was teaching a grace that allows us to do anything we want? One who is born of God cannot be deceived away from the truth.

A person sealed in Christ knows with certainty the truth. The good deposit guarantees their inheritance.
The Spirit testifies to their spirit that they are the children of God.

Bart Ehrman claimed to be born again and a believer once now he's an enemy of the gospel.
I asked him, "How can one be born again and NOT know Jesus lives?" Our communication ended with that question which he never answered.


Those born of God such as Paul and the Apostles and countless others did endure to the end by the grace of God.


What Paul states is true. Those who continue to sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth should expect judgement. Those born of God cannot and will not continue to sin.

Jesus=>My sheep hear my voice. They follow me. No one can snatch them out of my hands.

No one can snatch Jesus's sheep from His hands. They hear His voice and will not fall away from the truth. We can not be deceived away. He protects us from the evil one. So, no one born of God will leave to follow false teachers. Only those who do not have the Spirit are vulnerable.

Then why did He state He lost none except Judas? Judas fell because of his own doing but Jesus allowed it to happen. The one begotten of God keeps those born of God safe and the evil one cannot harm them. He prayed to the Father to protect His disciple from the evil one. He desires them to be with Him.

Heaven is full of such that have endured to the end by God's grace.

It is not possible for those sealed in Christ to be deceived away from the truth.
If you want the possibility for someone to fall you will need to look elsewhere.

He also stated a good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. By their fruit you will recognize them.
That many that state LORD LORD and did works in His name He stated HE NEVER KNEW THEM.

Did you read Romans 1? Does that sound like the church?

Where is MY opinion?
I've posted scripture with no further comment.

YOU, OTOH, have many comments regarding ALL scripture because it will not be plainly accepted by you.

I post Romans 1:6-8 and you tell me it's not the NT church???!!!

It's what PAUL TAUGHT.
Paul, who made up 90% of the theology in the NT.

Bart °Ehrman didn't respond to you because you asked him a dumb question.

You think HE didn't know/knows who Jesus is or what He taught?

Maybe he left the faith because of the watering down of Christianity.
Maybe he feels like if the Holy Spirit was involved we wouldn't be debating topics all day long?
Maybe Christianity is finished and Islam will take over (as it is) due to the nonsense we discuss here.

I say we need to obey God and I get push-back.
OSAS is NOWHERE to be found in the NT and yet some see it all over Jesus teachings.

We're not headed anywhere good.

If we all studied the early church more and knew what the early church believed, we'd be more in sync.
But no, better to study what was taught just a few hundred years ago and which does not agree with NT scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

Many of Jesus's disciples left Him because of His teachings. He knew from the start those that didn't believe in Him and would later betray Him. He stated this is why I said no one came come to me unless the Father enables them. (grace)
Apparently being the bread of life that came down from heaven that one may eat and NEVER die was too hard for them to accept.
Ref John 6
It was then He asked the 12 if they also wanted to leave as well.
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

One who is in Him will bear much fruit. Unless one is in Him, they cannot bear any fruit.
No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

The diciples who left Jesus were cut off from Him. They could not believe for the Father had not enabled them. They had no fruit.

Those who are sealed in Christ by the Spirit will bear much fruit. For all that the Father gives Him will come to Him. It's His Fathers will that He lose none of them the FATHER has given Him but raise them up on the last day.

All the warnings given in the NT about sin and leaving the darkness that is in this world behind is part of the TRUTH those in Him hold to.

Why did Jesus say IF YOU REMAIN IN ME? (which you've stated above).

IF
you remain in me.

Does this mean that MAYBE it's possible to NOT remain in Him?

 

[Randy]

Why did Jesus say IF YOU REMAIN IN ME? (which you've stated above).

IF
you remain in me.

Does this mean that MAYBE it's possible to NOT remain in Him?

Why does it state His disciples walked away from Him?

 

[Randy]

Where is MY opinion?
I've posted scripture with no further comment.

YOU, OTOH, have many comments regarding ALL scripture because it will not be plainly accepted by you.

I post Romans 1:6-8 and you tell me it's not the NT church???!!!

It's what PAUL TAUGHT.
Paul, who made up 90% of the theology in the NT.

Bart °Ehrman didn't respond to you because you asked him a dumb question.

You think HE didn't know/knows who Jesus is or what He taught?

Maybe he left the faith because of the watering down of Christianity.
Maybe he feels like if the Holy Spirit was involved we wouldn't be debating topics all day long?
Maybe Christianity is finished and Islam will take over (as it is) due to the nonsense we discuss here.

I say we need to obey God and I get push-back.
OSAS is NOWHERE to be found in the NT and yet some see it all over Jesus teachings.

We're not headed anywhere good.

If we all studied the early church more and knew what the early church believed, we'd be more in sync.
But no, better to study what was taught just a few hundred years ago and which does not agree with NT scripture.

God keeping those in Christ safe from the evil one is found in the NT.Saving Grace is found in the NT. The question I asked Bart was given to me from above. If He once had the witness of the Spirit in His inner being He would know Jesus lives. He wouldn't have even received that gift if He didn't believe in His heart with certainity. I beginning to wonder about you. It's not all book learning its relationship. REV3:20 You can't unknow that fellowship through the Spirit.
No one can snatch those in Christ from Jesus's hands. So you believe we can be deceived away from another spirit?

I don't think this is a productive conversion either.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why does it state His disciples walked away from Him?

I asked you first.

However, this is why:

Luke 14:27-30
27 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot * be My disciple.
28 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29 "Otherwise *, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'

Those that left calculated the cost and decided it was too much.

Now YOU reply to MY question:

YOU posted this verse:
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
It states IF you remain in me you will bear much fruit.
Let's take a close look:

1. IF denotes that the opposite is possible.
IF we remain in Jesus means that JESUS stated that it is possible to NOT remain IN HIM.

2. Jesus EXPECTS us to bear MUCH fruit.


My question, again, is:


Why did Jesus say IF YOU REMAIN IN ME? (which you've stated above).

IF
you remain in me.

Does this mean that MAYBE it's possible to NOT remain in Him?

 

[GodsGrace]

God keeping those in Christ safe from the evil one is found in the NT.Saving Grace is found in the NT. The question I asked Bart was given to me from above. If He once had the witness of the Spirit in His inner being He would know Jesus lives. He wouldn't have even received that gift if He didn't believe in His heart with certainity. I beginning to wonder about you. It's not all book learning its relationship. REV3:20 You can't unknow that fellowship through the Spirit.
No one can snatch those in Christ from Jesus's hands. So you believe we can be deceived away from another spirit?

I don't think this is a productive conversion either.

I would appreciate a reply to my post no. 586

Jesus said IF
What does the IF mean to you?

Bart Ehrman KNEW Jesus lived.
He STOPPED believing.

Just as Jesus stated is possible in Luke 8.13

Please explain the IF Jesus spoke about.

 

[Randy]

I would appreciate a reply to my post no. 586

Jesus said IF
What does the IF mean to you?

He said lots of things I have showed you.
He stated of those who were His disciples that walked away from Him that no one could come to Him unless the Father enabled them. "His disciples"
Just as He stated that ALL that the Father gave Him would come to Him and its His Fathers will to lose none that the Father gave Him but raise them up on the last day.
He stated His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him and that He gives them eternal life and they shall never perish, and no one can snatch them out of His hands.

Bart Ehrman KNEW Jesus lived.
He STOPPED believing.

Lives not lived
How can they NOT know Jesus LIVES.

Just as Jesus stated is possible in Luke 8.13

Are you speaking of those who have no root? I would state Christ in us is that root.
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

Please explain the IF Jesus spoke about.

He stated that those in Him bear much fruit. So how is your condition of no fruit met? He stated apart from Him we have no fruit. You don't become unborn again. You should note the Spirit was with the disciples before it was in them as Jesus testified to.. If God pulls the Spirit away before one is born again well that's all she wrote.


The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

David=>Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

 

[Randy]

I asked you first.

If Jesus's disciples walked away from Him then they were once His Disciples.

However, this is why:

Luke 14:27-30
27 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot * be My disciple.
28 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29 "Otherwise *, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'

Born not of human decision but born of God is God choosing us. A judgment made in ones favor.
To those
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
It is a lifelong commitment.
God gives the Spirit to those who do believe in Jesus and obey Him.

Those that left calculated the cost and decided it was too much.

I have believed in and loved the Lord as far back as my memory goes and there is freedom in Christ. My faith is not burdensome as some other faiths are. It may be that those Jews who believed and proclaimed Christ were kicked out of the synagogue and lost social standing. That may be a cost that they had to consider.

Now YOU reply to MY question:

YOU posted this verse:
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
It states IF you remain in me you will bear much fruit.
Let's take a close look:

1. IF denotes that the opposite is possible.
IF we remain in Jesus means that JESUS stated that it is possible to NOT remain IN HIM.

2. Jesus EXPECTS us to bear MUCH fruit.

Those born of God are sealed in Him by the Spirit which as stated elsewhere remains in them FOREVER.
So they will bear fruit. Those that do not hold to the testimony of Jesus never belonged to Him despite of any works initially done in His name.

My question, again, is:


Why did Jesus say IF YOU REMAIN IN ME? (which you've stated above).

The same as when He stated if you HOLD to my teaching you really are my disciples.
Those that walk away from Him will indeed perish.

IF
you remain in me.

Does this mean that MAYBE it's possible to NOT remain in Him?

Not for those sealed in Him by the Spirit. They are in Him and are new creation and they will not and cannot continue to sin because Gods seed remains in them.

With God all things are possible. (grace)
Ezekiel 36
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

 

[GodsGrace]

God keeping those in Christ safe from the evil one is found in the NT.Saving Grace is found in the NT. The question I asked Bart was given to me from above. If He once had the witness of the Spirit in His inner being He would know Jesus lives. He wouldn't have even received that gift if He didn't believe in His heart with certainity. I beginning to wonder about you. It's not all book learning its relationship. REV3:20 You can't unknow that fellowship through the Spirit.
No one can snatch those in Christ from Jesus's hands. So you believe we can be deceived away from another spirit?

I don't think this is a productive conversion either.

d

If Jesus's disciples walked away from Him then they were once His Disciples.

Born not of human decision but born of God is God choosing us. A judgment made in ones favor.
To those
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
It is a lifelong commitment.
God gives the Spirit to those who do believe in Jesus and obey Him.

I have believed in and loved the Lord as far back as my memory goes and there is freedom in Christ. My faith is not burdensome as some other faiths are. It may be that those Jews who believed and proclaimed Christ were kicked out of the synagogue and lost social standing. That may be a cost that they had to consider.

Those born of God are sealed in Him by the Spirit which as stated elsewhere remains in them FOREVER.
So they will bear fruit. Those that do not hold to the testimony of Jesus never belonged to Him despite of any works initially done in His name.

The same as when He stated if you HOLD to my teaching you really are my disciples.
Those that walk away from Him will indeed perish.

Not for those sealed in Him by the Spirit. They are in Him and are new creation and they will not and cannot continue to sin because Gods seed remains in them.

With God all things are possible. (grace)
Ezekiel 36
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

What's the difference between being sealed in the spirit and being a believer?

Show where this distinction is made in the teachings of Jesus or any of the writers.

Are not all believers sealed in the spirit?
There are two classes of believers?

Galatians 3:28
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Romans 2:11
11For God shows no partiality.

 

[tdidymas]

My shoe is of God. If all believers are saints, the verse you replied to, is not true. Ephesians 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;". The sons of God are the angels. God is not human so his sons the angels are not humans as well. Here is a verse you can think about: Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.". Do you think those sons of God that came, are humans? What Satan have to do with humans? You think about logic, they are not humans, but angels, as Satan. And it is said "the sons of God", not that there is other sons of God, humans. Others are childs of God, as interpreted by scripture, those who have the Holy Spirit, by logic as well. Who are humans indeed. Adopted sons of God, not original, as the angels of God. You think about logic. God have his sons, the angels, and they are only called so. Scripture can say they are ministering spirits servants of humans, but only in New Testament, which is different kind of spirit. This is not the whole Bible, there is also Old Testament, not less important. You cannot take only what New Testament saying, without have in mind the whole Bible. It is said also angels are little higher than humans. But also, they are not humans, and have wings. How they can be lower than humans and not higher? Do humans have wings? Are they strong as the angels in spirit and spiritual body in afterlife? Do they have swords, are they part of the army of God? Are they pure as the angels? God is not human as well, this is why he is higher than humans. So, his sons are not humans. It is said in Old Testament he have wings as well. No one ever seen God Jesus said, because human now or in afterlife cannot see God, even being a saint, and the verse saying why: Exodus 33:20 "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.". Yet it is written in Bible, the angels watching his face always. Because they are not humans, and can see him. Because they are his sons. Old Testament is correct. Salvation is a gift of God for those who obey God, else all would be saved. Who don't want a good eternal life? And until people have free will, they can sin and turn from God. Think about it, is it not possible? Satan, the greatest angel turn from God. Who indeed was holy before. Humans are lower than angels according to Bible. About God keeping your salvation, this is another thing. He will keep you if you are a saint, but born again is just new spirit within you. It can fall. Not all are saints. Believers will never be the sons of God. Human nature is not angelic nature. Moses calling them so which means children of God. Another word, that cannot be used in the same way, as sons of Gods. I don't have wicked spirits in me. Demon cannot live in you, if you are saved. Demons live in people that are not of God. I just told, that demons are wicked spirits that are in people in order to make them sin. And this happens by being in them, and they take their evilness and sin. While Holy Spirit is holy and being in them, makes them do holy works. The law are the first two commandments, love God and neighbor, as Jesus said. The rich man asked Jesus what to do to go to Heaven he said keep the commandments. Jesus never changes, and his replies are for all. No, it is talking about fornication, not about relationships. No one can heal people, without being fully in God. Born again does not means saint. Saint is one who have halo. Not all in Heaven have halo. Which is to say, there is more Heavens in Bible, maybe there is a Heaven where all have halo, but not the lowest. It does not matter if one is atheist, for salvation. Because he is not of God. While believer, even if distrust God, he sent his Christ to die for him, so he can be saved. Only to believer it matters the sacrifice of Christ. Also they must be baptized. Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.". See? "That believeth", atheist not believe. And is not baptized.

Our paths diverge. Angels are NOT the saints, who are human beings. At this point, I don't want to have a conversation with you, because since you err on this point, I don't want to have to figure out where else you err, since erroneous interpretation is far reaching. May the Lord show you the truth. Goodbye.

 

[tdidymas]

Why this strawman tdidmas?
Who said I could save myself without faith?
Who said I could do anything without Jesus?
And why discuss ME?
I'm discussing theology here.

I was merely responding to your false conclusion claiming I believed that obeying Jesus was legalistic. You appear to me to judge people by what you think they said. And it appears to me that you have a double standard, where you judge another person's belief, saying you're discussing theology; but when someone replies addressing your theology, you take it personally - "Why discuss ME?" That definitely looks like you're taking it personally. But I'm addressing your theology:

You're claiming that you (i.e. anyone) can go back into a sinful life, continue therein, and lose your salvation, are you not? Yes or no?

Paul taught the obedience of faith.
§Romans 1:5
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
Let's make this very clear so that you do not take out of context what I write:
AFTER we are born again....
we are REQUIRED to obey God.
Those that DO NOT believe in God....
are not required to obey.

EVERYONE is required to obey God. If they don't, they could end up like Sodom and Gomorrah, or worse, the lake of fire. So how do come to the conclusion that unbelievers are not required to obey God?

Jesus taught that we are to do the will of the Father.
Jesus taught good works.
Just as Paul did.
If you do not agree, please post some verses that state that it is not necessary to obey God...or the teachings of Jesus - which is the same.

Matthew 7:19
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matthew 7:24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matthew 25:44-46
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent * that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


JESUS taught that we are to obey Him.
To bear good fruit.
To do the will of the Father.
To ACT on His words/teachings.
To do good works for mankind.

Jesus taught this...
not me.

If you believe obedience to God is not necessary, some verses stating this would be helpful.

You are drawing the wrong conclusion about what I wrote. I never said that obedience to God is not necessary. What I am saying is that obedience to God does not gain anyone eternal life. Eternal life is a free gift from God, called grace. Obedience to God is not the cause of having eternal life (salvation), but the result of it.

People who obey God in faith are born-again saints. Those not born again will not obey God, because they don't belong to Him. Some might attempt to obey God, but they aren't doing it in faith, so they aren't really obeying. This is why in Psalms it says that the unrighteous give feigned obedience. That means they appear to obey God's commands, but aren't doing it in faith.

Stop drawing wrong conclusions, and just answer my 2 questions, please.

 

[tdidymas]

Angels are indeed sons of God.

Angels are not begotten sons of God.

Only Jesus is the Only begotten Son of God.

• for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

One word and one verse does not convince me of your interpretation. "Equal" doesn't make angels sons of God, because they are not equal in relationship. That phrase is translated from a single Grk word, meaning "angelic" which is more accurately "like the angels" as rendered in some translations. The subject matter is about what kind of body they will have, and that they will have no sexual component, not what kind of relationship with God they have. Show me anywhere that angels and God have a father/son relationship through grace. I doubt you can, since Peter says they don't know it - 1 Pet. 1:12. Otherwise, this is off-topic.

 

[George1]

Our paths diverge. Angels are NOT the saints, who are human beings. At this point, I don't want to have a conversation with you, because since you err on this point, I don't want to have to figure out where else you err, since erroneous interpretation is far reaching. May the Lord show you the truth. Goodbye.

You err as well. I don't want to know who is a human being! But the paths, yes, far far not the same.

 

[Randy]

d

What's the difference between being sealed in the spirit and being a believer?

Actually it should be sealed in Him by the Spirit. OR Born again
If you want to believe everyone who proclaims Christ including Mormons and JW's are born again your free to do so.
The Apostles certainly believed in Jesus before they were born again.
Paul asked some to examine themselves to see if they were in the faith. Meaning Christ in them. I don't think he was asking unbelievers do you?

Show where this distinction is made in the teachings of Jesus or any of the writers.

Are not all believers sealed in the spirit?
There are two classes of believers?

Galatians 3:28
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Romans 2:11
11For God shows no partiality.

 

[GodsGrace]

I was merely responding to your false conclusion claiming I believed that obeying Jesus was legalistic. You appear to me to judge people by what you think they said. And it appears to me that you have a double standard, where you judge another person's belief, saying you're discussing theology; but when someone replies addressing your theology, you take it personally - "Why discuss ME?" That definitely looks like you're taking it personally. But I'm addressing your theology:

You're claiming that you (i.e. anyone) can go back into a sinful life, continue therein, and lose your salvation, are you not? Yes or no?

Yes.
If a person returns to a sinful life....
he will once gain become lost.
Those that abide in Christ do not lead sinful lives....
if they do, it means they have returned to a life of being severed from God.

EVERYONE is required to obey God. If they don't, they could end up like Sodom and Gomorrah, or worse, the lake of fire. So how do come to the conclusion that unbelievers are not required to obey God?

Do you believe unbelievers are required to obey God?

You are drawing the wrong conclusion about what I wrote. I never said that obedience to God is not necessary. What I am saying is that obedience to God does not gain anyone eternal life.

I do understand Tdidmas.
I'M saying that obedience to God DOES gain eternal life.

Eternal life is a free gift from God, called grace. Obedience to God is not the cause of having eternal life (salvation), but the result of it.

Result or not.....Jesus said that we are to ACT on HIS words.
This means that we are to obey Him.
Obedience causes us to have eternal life.

Paul taught:

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Romans 2:5-8
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
Jesus taught:
John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Both Jesus and Paul taught that we (believers) will be judged by our deeds.
As did all the writers of the NT.

People who obey God in faith are born-again saints. Those not born again will not obey God, because they don't belong to Him.

Agreed.

Some might attempt to obey God, but they aren't doing it in faith, so they aren't really obeying. This is why in Psalms it says that the unrighteous give feigned obedience. That means they appear to obey God's commands, but aren't doing it in faith.

Agreed.

Stop drawing wrong conclusions, and just answer my 2 questions, please.

No wrong conclusion.
You've again stated above that obedience to God does not get us saved....
I've shown that it does with scripture.

However, I've never seen a verse that states that even if we do not obey God,,,
we will still be saved.

Your two questions have been answered.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually it should be sealed in Him by the Spirit. OR Born again
If you want to believe everyone who proclaims Christ including Mormons and JW's are born again your free to do so.
The Apostles certainly believed in Jesus before they were born again.
Paul asked some to examine themselves to see if they were in the faith. Meaning Christ in them. I don't think he was asking unbelievers do you?

How about replying to my question to you?

It's from post no. 586

Here it is AGAIN:

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YOU posted this verse:
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
It states IF you remain in me you will bear much fruit.

Let's take a close look:

1. IF denotes that the opposite is possible.
IF we remain in Jesus means that JESUS stated that it is possible to NOT remain IN HIM.

2. Jesus EXPECTS us to bear MUCH fruit.


My question, again, is:


Why did Jesus say IF YOU REMAIN IN ME? (which you've stated above).

IF
you remain in me.

Does this mean that MAYBE it's possible to NOT remain in Him?

 

[Randy]

How about replying to my question to you?

It's from post no. 586

Here it is AGAIN:

§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§

YOU posted this verse:
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
It states IF you remain in me you will bear much fruit.

Let's take a close look:

1. IF denotes that the opposite is possible.
IF we remain in Jesus means that JESUS stated that it is possible to NOT remain IN HIM.

2. Jesus EXPECTS us to bear MUCH fruit.


My question, again, is:


Why did Jesus say IF YOU REMAIN IN ME? (which you've stated above).

IF
you remain in me.

Does this mean that MAYBE it's possible to NOT remain in Him?

He also said if you HOLD to my teaching you REALLY are my disciples.

He never stated anything about being born again that is your assumption.

This is what He stated in that regard.

“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth

I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Those that are sealed in Christ by the Spirit cannot be deceived away from the truth by any man or spirit. They are kept safe by God. They know Christ as He knows the Father just as He stated.

If you don't believe this just state so and let's move on.

Jesus prayed for His disciples
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours
For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

He also said if you HOLD to my teaching you REALLY are my disciples.

He never stated anything about being born again that is your assumption.

This is what He stated in that regard.

“If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth

I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Those that are sealed in Christ by the Spirit cannot be deceived away from the truth by any man or spirit. They are kept safe by God. They know Christ as He knows the Father just as He stated.

If you don't believe this just state so and let's move on.

Jesus prayed for His disciples
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours
For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

No Randy....
I've explained many verses on these Forums.

I'm not asking you to post a DIFFERENT verse.

I'm asking you to explain WHY Jesus gave an option.

HE said:

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
John 15:5


Please explain why Jesus said IF you remain in me.

IF is conditional.
Jesus is giving us a choice.

IF we remain in Him we will bear he fruit necessary.
What IF we do NOT remain in Him?

Please explain just like I explain YOUR verses.

We do tend to post only the verses we like and ignore the rest.
The bible is one complete book.
It must be able to reconcile ALL verses or we might as well throw out the NT.

 

[Randy]

No Randy....
I've explained many verses on these Forums.

I'm not asking you to post a DIFFERENT verse.

I'm asking you to explain WHY Jesus gave an option.

HE said:

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."
John 15:5

The Spirit was not poured out yet when He stated that. Did it not apply to His current audience? I have answered your question several times. Your assumption He's speaking of those sealed in Him by the Spirit is
mistaken. So, if you continue in His teachings or hold to His teachings would be how I read that. That is a sign that you really are His disciple. That they are those the FATHER has given HIM.
Now about those born of God they will not and cannot continue to Sin as I read. Which you don't answer because it doesn't fit your theology. How do they become UNBORN of God apart from sin?
Those who have the Spirit of Christ in them can NEVER be deceived away from the truth. The truth is more than just who Jesus is. It also includes all those warnings about abiding in Him. According to Paul Love fulfills ALL the commandments.
If you want to believe someone who knows Jesus as He knows the Father can be deceived away your free to do so. I don't share your belief in that. I tired of this subject.

What must I do to receive eternal life? Those born of God will keep these commands.
Keep these along with faith in Him and you will live.
“And behold, one came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother, and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Please explain why Jesus said IF you remain in me.

Those born of God WILL remain in HIm they do not and cannot continue to sin. They know Him as HE knows the Father.

IF is conditional.
Jesus is giving us a choice.

IF we remain in Him we will bear he fruit necessary.
What IF we do NOT remain in Him?

Please explain just like I explain YOUR verses.

We do tend to post only the verses we like and ignore the rest.
The bible is one complete book.
It must be able to reconcile ALL verses or we might as well throw out the NT.

You ignore that He keeps safe those BORN OF GOD. Not all others. You apparently don't believe this.
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was begotten of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.