John 15 and the True Vine

[Nathan]

One example to go with my previous post. Interesting how things go together.

I hand load ammunition. I also make my own bullets to be loaded in that ammunition.

I take lead, which is a wheel weight and melt it down. I then pour it in a mold and it becomes a bullet.

Once it is melted down, it no longer is a wheel weight. It is now a bullet. You can still say it is lead, in ether form, but it is no longer a wheel weight. If a branch was to die, then be cut off, it becomes what it once was.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you have an Oak tree in your yard that produces acorns, but there are some branches that have died and don't produce acorns, are those branches not oak branches, even if you prune the tree and burn them. Are not the ashes of those branches oak ashes?

What I resist is the absurd notion that those oak branches still have the life of the oak tree in them. But that is what hyper/free grace doctrine claims.

 

[Nathan]

What I resist is the absurd notion that those oak branches still have the life of the oak tree in them. But that is what hyper/free grace doctrine claims.

I go one step further and find it weird their still called oak branches.

 

[dirtfarmer]

What I resist is the absurd notion that those oak branches still have the life of the oak tree in them. But that is what hyper/free grace doctrine claims.

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

No one has said that the branches that have died still has any life in them.

Since you received salvation and have die in Christ, does the old nature still have dominion(rule) in your life? It is my understanding that the old man has died and become a new creation in Christ Jesus; is that incorrect? Since I have been crucified with Christ I have been resurrected to walk in newness of life and the old nature no longer rules in my life

Believers should know, as born again believers, Romans 6:6-7 ," Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Verse 7: "For he that is dead is freed from sin." A person that is saved is no longer under the power of sin, nor are they under the penalty of sin, that is now. Some day the Christian will be removed from the presence of sin.

 

[JLB]

One example to go with my previous post. Interesting how things go together.

I hand load ammunition. I also make my own bullets to be loaded in that ammunition.

I take lead, which is a wheel weight and melt it down. I then pour it in a mold and it becomes a bullet.

Once it is melted down, it no longer is a wheel weight. It is now a bullet. You can still say it is lead, in ether form, but it is no longer a wheel weight. If a branch was to die, then be cut off, it becomes what it once was.

Amen.

An angel that is created by God, and a son of God, that is cast into hell, is still an angel and a son of God.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5.



JLB

 

[Nathan]

The issue that is not being addressed is why/how the "oak branches" die and are pruned.

The Vine/Tree is perfect. It gives EVERYTHING needed for life. If the branches die it is not because of the vine/tree. It is because of the sickness in the branches.

Once a branch dies, and is removed, it is no longer a branch of that vine/tree. It does not matter if it "once was", it is no longer. Anymore that the wicked one is a servant of God, or could be one again, because he once was.

Wicked one = satan. If there was confusion there.

 

[Nathan]

Amen.

An angel that is created by God, and a son of God, that is cast into hell, is still an angel and a son of God.

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5.



JLB

Interesting. I was responding the same time you posted this.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No one has said that the branches that have died still has any life in them.

Well, actually, it is being argued continually here in cf.net that the cut off branches get to keep the eternal life they have received and that they only lose out on fellowship with God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The issue that is not being addressed is why/how the "oak branches" die and are pruned.

Unbelief.
Branches are cut off because of unbelief. They remain because of continued believing.

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.(Romans 11:20-22 NASB bold mine)

 

[Nathan]

Unbelief.
Branches are cut off because of unbelief. They remain because of continued believing.

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.(Romans 11:20-22 NASB bold mine)

So true. And it's not unbelief because of anything the vine has done. But also, the only reason they were a branch to begin with was because of belief.

It's not because of some doubt either, anymore than one is a branch because of partial belief. It is total rejection of the faith that "cuts" them off. Reason why they, even themselves, would acknowledge they are no longer branches.

 

[Nathan]

1 Timothy 4 explicitly talks of such people who choose to do so.

I have the utmost compassion for those who feel like they have "lost" their heavenly reward because of some great sin. Or even those who have at times publicly "denied" Christ.

But being cut off from the vine is much more. Just as a dead branch would have no life/feeling, so too those who have been cut off have either.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Well, actually, it is being argued continually here in cf.net that the cut off branches get to keep the eternal life they have received and that they only lose out on fellowship with God.

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

Just pondering, in verse 4 stated " As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself" and verse 5 states "for without me ye can do nothing" is this truly representing a loss of salvation? In verse 6 it is stated those that abide not in Christ are cast forth as a branch, and is withered;" Could it be stated that the withering happens after being cast forth because of what is stated in verse 2, 4 & 5 ? There is nothing stating that they die before being cut off.

 

[JLB]

Well, actually, it is being argued continually here in cf.net that the cut off branches get to keep the eternal life they have received and that they only lose out on fellowship with God.

What a mess!

... and if it ain't, it'll do till the mess get's here.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In verse 6 it is stated those that abide not in Christ are cast forth as a branch, and is withered;" Could it be stated that the withering happens after being cast forth because of what is stated in verse 2, 4 & 5 ?

I would see the onset of withering as the breaking of fellowship that OSAS says the removal of the branch altogether represents.

Just from experience, we who are believers should understand quite clearly how it is the breaking of fellowship through neglect or distraction that causes withering. A withering caused by neglect that, if it degrades into unbelief, will result in the branch being removed altogether.

A dried up branch would obviously represent a dead branch, not a branch that still has the life of the root in it.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I would see the onset of withering as the breaking of fellowship that OSAS says the removal of the branch altogether represents.

Just from experience, we who are believers should understand quite clearly how it is the breaking of fellowship through neglect or distraction that causes withering. A withering caused by neglect that, if it degrades into unbelief, will result in the branch being removed altogether.

A dried up branch would obviously represent a dead branch, not a branch that still has the life of the root in it.

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

As I understand scripture in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 deals with building upon " the foundation", Jesus Christ. It is stated that every man's works shall be manifest as to what sort it is. If we have works that are gold, silver, and precious stones, then we will receive a "stephanos", a garland wreath that is awarded to the winners. Also in those verses there is wood, hay, and stubble. It is stated that those "works" will be tried by fire. The gold, silver and precious stones will only be refined by the fire, but the wood, hay, and stubble will be burned. It is the latter of those works that will be burned up in the fire. In verse 15 it tells us, " If any man's works are burned, he shall suffer loss". But the next phrase states that those that suffer loss because the refiner's fire burned them, "he, himself will be saved; yet so as by fire." Is this the scripture that "Church doctrine" should be established on, seeing that Paul was the apostle to the gentiles and he is the apostle that God revealed that both believing Jew and Gentile should make up the body of Christ?

John was an apostle to the circumcision(Jew): Galatians 2:6-9

 

[Jethro Bodine]

seeing that Paul was the apostle to the gentiles and he is the apostle that God revealed that both believing Jew and Gentile should make up the body of Christ?

John was an apostle to the circumcision(Jew): Galatians 2:6-9

I absolutely and categorically reject the Kingdom teaching that says there are two different gospels, one for the Jew, and one for the gentile. It's impossible that the Jews have been given a kind of works gospel (supposedly), while that very same gospel, if embraced by the gentiles, will result in the damnation of the gentiles. Paul made it very clear that his gospel, kingdom message was the same for both Jew and gentile:

"20how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

25“And now, behold, I know that all of you, among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, will no longer see my face." (Acts 20:20-21,25 NASB bold and underline mine)

The two gospel message was invented to try to explain what seem to be contradictions between what Jesus taught (supposedly a works gospel) and what Paul taught (a gospel of grace). But through a little spiritual insight and understanding of the scriptures one can see they are not in contradiction at all, but very much on the exact same page.

As for 1 Corinthians 3......we can talk about it when I get back.

 

[JLB]

If we have works that are gold, silver, and precious stones, then we will receive a "stephanos", a garland wreath that is awarded to the winners.

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, ... 1 Corinthians 3;12

The scripture does not say our works are gold, silver, and precious stones.

It says if anyone builds, on the foundation with the things that will endure the coming test of fire, then what the builder builds, will endure the fire.

The building is the temple and refers to people.

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:17

Those Christians who defile other Christians with immoral behavior will be destroyed if they do not repent.

Paul explains this clearly in Chapter 5 and 6 of this letter to the Corinthians.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
1 Corinthians 5:6-12


JLB

 

[JLB]

I absolutely and categorically reject the Kingdom teaching that says there are two different gospels, one for the Jew, and one for the gentile.

 

[Anto9us]

that you may be a new lump

Yes, theologically speaking, let us be A NEW LUMP !!

Medically speaking, I go for an ultrasound this afternoon, and I hope there is not A NEW LUMP...

Pray for me all of you

 

[JLB]

Yes, theologically speaking, let us be A NEW LUMP !!

Medically speaking, I go for an ultrasound this afternoon, and I hope there is not A NEW LUMP...

Pray for me all of you

What part of Texas are you in?

You are blessed !



JLB