John 15 and the True Vine

[reba]

@dirtfarmer

 

[JLB]

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

As I understand scripture in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 deals with building upon " the foundation", Jesus Christ. It is stated that every man's works shall be manifest as to what sort it is. If we have works that are gold, silver, and precious stones, then we will receive a "stephanos", a garland wreath that is awarded to the winners. Also in those verses there is wood, hay, and stubble. It is stated that those "works" will be tried by fire. The gold, silver and precious stones will only be refined by the fire, but the wood, hay, and stubble will be burned. It is the latter of those works that will be burned up in the fire. In verse 15 it tells us, " If any man's works are burned, he shall suffer loss". But the next phrase states that those that suffer loss because the refiner's fire burned them, "he, himself will be saved; yet so as by fire." Is this the scripture that "Church doctrine" should be established on, seeing that Paul was the apostle to the gentiles and he is the apostle that God revealed that both believing Jew and Gentile should make up the body of Christ?

John was an apostle to the circumcision(Jew): Galatians 2:6-9

Happy Birthday, brother!

 

[Anto9us]

I am in Waco, JLB -- religious fanatic capitol of the western world!

 

[JLB]

I am in Waco, JLB -- religious fanatic capitol of the western world!

 

[Nathan]

Jethro Bodine said: ↑
I absolutely and categorically reject the Kingdom teaching that says there are two different gospels, one for the Jew, and one for the gentile.

I third this.

The book of Galatians deals with this directly, even though it seems to be the one that causes the misunderstanding.

Galatians 2:7
On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised

All Paul was saying that he was sent to the gentiles, and Peter to the Jews - but they both had the same gospel. Kind of like all those pieces of junk mail you get. Same junk mail, just delivered to different people, by different mailmen.

 

[WIP]

There's also this.

Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.” Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.” But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”
Acts 9:10-16 NKJV

 

[dirtfarmer]

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

When Jesus went about all the cities and villages preaching the gospel of the kingdom, was he preaching about his death, burial, and resurrection? It is my understanding that during the kingdom there will be no sickness or diseases. Matthew 10 Jesus told the 12 to not go into the way of the Gentiles, nor to the cities of Samaria, but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. While they among the lost sheep they were to preach the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

They were to heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out devils, and cleanse the lepers but no where do I find that they were instructed to preach the death, burial, and resurrection of himself after being crucified on the cross. The reason why they didn't preach about the death, burial, and resurrection is because that is the gospel of the grace of God, not the gospel of the kingdom.

 

[dirtfarmer]

@dirtfarmer

hello reba, dirtfarmer here

If I were in the state of Jefferson I would give you a big hug, but since I am not this will have to do.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Happy Birthday, brother!

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

Thanks for the "coke and a smile."

 

[Anto9us]

Who is the Governor of the State of Jefferson?

 

[MSchultz]

Who is the Governor of the State of Jefferson?

According to an internet search, a Governor has not been appointed as of yet.

 

[Anto9us]

Then reba should be appointed by acclimation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They were to heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out devils, and cleanse the lepers...

These are all part of the gospel after the resurrection, too.

15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.16“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17“These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” (Mark 16:15-18 NASB)

No change of gospel/kingdom message here. It's the same gospel in regard to these things.

...but no where do I find that they were instructed to preach the death, burial, and resurrection of himself after being crucified on the cross.

The way to be saved prior to Christ was the same as it is in this New Covenant.....through the forgiveness of sin. But of course, the blood of Christ as the avenue through which one is forgiven was not revealed yet in the ministering of the gospel to the pre-resurrection Jews. But it was surely the same gospel of salvation through the forgiveness of sin. What makes that forgiveness possible is what is now known and revealed in this New Covenant.

I guess what has to be done now is connect the dots on how the revelation of Christ's body and blood being the agent through which one receives the forgiveness of sins makes it so Jesus' message was different than Paul's in regard to the matter of salvation. I don't see how not knowing Jesus is actually what makes it possible for God to forgive a person and save them changes the gospel message from having to work for one's salvation and being able to lose it (the message to the Jews, supposedly) to a different gospel message for the gentiles where one does not work for his salvation and can't lose it.

 

[dirtfarmer]

These are all part of the gospel after the resurrection, too.

15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.16“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17“These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” (Mark 16:15-18 NASB)

No change of gospel/kingdom message here. It's the same gospel in regard to these things.



The way to be saved prior to Christ was the same as it is in this New Covenant.....through the forgiveness of sin. But of course, the blood of Christ as the avenue through which one is forgiven was not revealed yet in the ministering of the gospel to the pre-resurrection Jews. But it was surely the same gospel of salvation through the forgiveness of sin. What makes that forgiveness possible is what is now known and revealed in this New Covenant.

I guess what has to be done now is connect the dots on how the revelation of Christ's body and blood being the agent through which one receives the forgiveness of sins makes it so Jesus' message was different than Paul's in regard to the matter of salvation. I don't see how not knowing Jesus is actually what makes it possible for God to forgive a person and save them changes the gospel message from having to work for one's salvation and being able to lose it (the message to the Jews, supposedly) to a different gospel message for the gentiles where one does not work for his salvation and can't lose it.

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

We read of people that handle rattlesnakes during services that are bitten by the snake and they die; is this a sign that they had no faith? What about Jim Jones and his followers, they died after drinking poison, were they not saved because they died. Would you be willing to enter a service that has rattlesnakes and pick up those serpents or be willing to drink poison during that service? When is the last time that you visited a demon-possessed person and cast out the demon? Have you ever spoke with a "new tongue"? What language was it that you spoke if you have?

When is the last time that you heard a preacher speak on Mark 16:18 as part of the salvation message?

 

[Nathan]

I'm not sure how Mark 16:18 is a part of the salvation message?

 

[dirtfarmer]

I'm not sure how Mark 16:18 is a part of the salvation message?

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

It is not part of the gospel that Paul preached: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

 

[atpollard]

Technically, the manuscript evidence strongly points to Mark 16:9-20 being a later addition to the book and not part of the original Gospel as written by the the original author. It should not be viewed as necessisarily being inspired and may be more like the Apocrapha (not inspired, but of some historic value).

 

[dirtfarmer]

Technically, the manuscript evidence strongly points to Mark 16:9-20 being a later addition to the book and not part of the original Gospel as written by the the original author. It should not be viewed as necessisarily being inspired and may be more like the Apocrapha (not inspired, but of some historic value).

hello atpollard, dirtfarmer here

I have read that Mark 16:9-20 is an addition. From some of the evidence there is a strong case for that to be true.

 

[Anto9us]

I would not be too quick to dismiss Mark 16:9-20 as non-canonical

Much has been written on this "long ending" to Mark

There were two important early manuscripts that did not contain it; almost all others do

Interesting commentary notes in THE ORTHODOX STUDY BIBLE; it does say 9-20 is canonical and inspired
It mentions Paul being bit by snake at Malta and not being affected; although it says "taking up serpents" may be metaphorical as fighting the forces of Satan

It mentions someone in a tradition forced to drink poison by persecutors who did not die

It mentions that these promises should not be used as a way to "tempt God" -- which might relate to Jim Jones' followers, they knew they were drinking poisoned flavor-aid

"These signs will follow" to me just means that it can occur, not that every Christian henceforth will be immune to snake-bite, poison, or will speak in tongues (Paul wrote "do all speak in tongues?")

As to how this all relates to "is there only one gospel" -- I dunno -- but I too think there is only one gospel

Paul calling it "MY gospel" doesn't mean he had a separate one

The long ending ends with the disciples evangelizing:

Mar 16:20

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

 

[WIP]

We should probably get this discussion back on topic. Thanks.