John 15 and the True Vine

[atpollard]

There are some people who view and argue about John 15:1-6 and the teaching on the Vine as being about the loss of salvation. I do not think that is a correct reading of the text. So let's talk about it:

John 15:1-6 [NKJV]

1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Jesus is the TRUE VINE. Talking to a group of Israelites, what cultural baggage would THEY bring to a parable about a vine ...


Psalm 80:8-18 [NKJV]
8 You have brought a vine out of Egypt;
You have cast out the nations, and planted it.
9 You prepared room for it,
And caused it to take deep root,
And it filled the land.
10 The hills were covered with its shadow,
And the mighty cedars with its boughs.
11 She sent out her boughs to the Sea,
And her branches to the River.

12 Why have You broken down her hedges,
So that all who pass by the way pluck her fruit?
13 The boar out of the woods uproots it,
And the wild beast of the field devours it.

14 Return, we beseech You, O God of hosts;
Look down from heaven and see,
And visit this vine
15 And the vineyard which Your right hand has planted,
And the branch that You made strong for Yourself.
16 It is burned with fire, it is cut down;
They perish at the rebuke of Your countenance.
17 Let Your hand be upon the man of Your right hand,
Upon the son of man whom You made strong for Yourself.
18 Then we will not turn back from You;
Revive us, and we will call upon Your name.

From Psalm 80, the nation of Israel is a vine. It is a vine which God brought out of Egypt and planted and tended. It is a vine that grew in the garden God had prepared for it. It is a vine that God once punished by burning with fire and cutting down. It is a vine that prayed for restoration ... "Let Your hand be upon the man of Your right hand, upon the son of man whom You made strong for Yourself."

... Now where have we heard someone call themselves the "Son of Man" before ... who was strong in the power of God ... and came to restore? [Hmmm, need to think about that one.]


Isaiah 5:1-7 [NKJV]
1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:

My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.

3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;
It shall not be pruned or dug,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.
I will also command the clouds
That they rain no rain on it.”

7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.

Isaiah 5:7 leaves nothing to the imagination ... "the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are His pleasant plant."


Ezekiel 15 [NKJV]

1 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, how is the wood of the vine better than any other wood, the vine branch which is among the trees of the forest? 3 Is wood taken from it to make any object? Or can men make a peg from it to hang any vessel on? 4 Instead, it is thrown into the fire for fuel; the fire devours both ends of it, and its middle is burned. Is it useful for any work? 5 Indeed, when it was whole, no object could be made from it. How much less will it be useful for any work when the fire has devoured it, and it is burned?

6 “Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Like the wood of the vine among the trees of the forest, which I have given to the fire for fuel, so I will give up the inhabitants of Jerusalem; 7 and I will set My face against them. They will go out from one fire, but another fire shall devour them. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I set My face against them. 8 Thus I will make the land desolate, because they have persisted in unfaithfulness,’ says the Lord GOD.”

In Ezekiel, God pledges to burn the vine, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, as punishment. The LORD has set his face against them.


Hosea 14:4-7 [NKJV]
4 “I will heal their backsliding,
I will love them freely,
For My anger has turned away from him.
5 I will be like the dew to Israel;
He shall grow like the lily,
And lengthen his roots like Lebanon.
6 His branches shall spread;
His beauty shall be like an olive tree,
And his fragrance like Lebanon.
7 Those who dwell under his shadow shall return;
They shall be revived like grain,
And grow like a vine.
Their scent shall be like the wine of Lebanon.

God has promised to heal them, to love them. One day they shall dwell under HIS shadow and grow like a vine.


Now, into this legacy and to these people enters Jesus. The Good Shepherd (not just any shepherd), and proclaims "I am the TRUE VINE" ... what 'true vine"? The "TRUE" vine of God, the true Israel. The son of man, come to fulfill the promise and so much more.

John 15:1-6 [NKJV]
1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

So knowing what we now know about the promise and the judgment, what unfruitful branches had God the Father already been pruning for centuries? The unfaithful of Israel. God had already explained the fire. It is not the fire of hell but the fire of judgment, punishment for disobedient Israel. Are they restored or are they cast off forever, these verses do not answer that question, so I will not speculate. However, these verses are NOT written as a lesson and a warning on gentiles falling away after salvation. That is simply not the audience, the context or the purpose. It is about the casting off of the last of the old, unfaithful Israel and the pruning of the faithful Israel to make them more fruitful. [Romans 11 expand on this with information about the grafting of wild branches (gentiles) into the True Vine.] It is also an announcement that this vine draws its life directly from God. "I am the True Vine". Thus Jesus is able to fulfill the promises given for restoration of the vine. Not back to what it was, but like everything else about Christ, the New is better than the Old.

I do not believe that the audience hearing John 15 would have been ignorant of so many and powerful statements from the Old Testament.

 

[reba]

Many times the Israelits were admonished to obey ... if ye obey
If they shall confess their iniquity
My understand of the OT is God is NEVER slack on His promises .. Scriptures show His promises come with conditions

 

[atpollard]

Scriptures show His promises come with conditions

Most, but not all. Some promises God just makes all by himself. The rainbow and never flooding the Earth again, springs to mind as an example.

He DOES lay out the penalties right up front, offer ample warning before judgement, and 70 times 7 chances to repent.
Funny then, how often we seem surprised when judgement comes.

 

[chessman]

16 It is burned with fire, it is cut down;

They perish at the rebuke of Your countenance.

Countenance means face/glory (i.e. God's fiery Glory)
Rebuke means to re-proof, correct, discipline:

Proverbs 17:10(NKJV) Rebuke is more effective for a wise man than a hundred blows on a fool.​

God's cleansing fire is also a theme with a point toward cleansing that runs throughout Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 12:15 (NKJV) Then it shall be, after I have plucked them out, that I will return and have compassion on them and bring them back, everyone to his heritage and everyone to his land.​

Jeremiah 6:9 (NKJV) Thus says the Lord of hosts: “They shall thoroughly glean as a vine the remnant of Israel; As a grape-gatherer, put your hand back into the branches.”

Jeremiah 11:16(NKJV) The Lord called your name, Green Olive Tree, Lovely and of Good Fruit. With the noise of a great tumult
He has kindled fire on it, And its branches are broken.
​

Isaiah 5:7 leaves nothing to the imagination ... "the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are His pleasant plant."

And God's word to Isaiah leaves nothing to the imagination as to how God takes away the iniquity from His house either. With burning coals! Which has been my point about the passage as well. Yet the Biblical point is rejected, called dishonest, laughed at, etc. by anti-OSAS of course.

Isaiah 5:4a (NKJV)
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
​

Good question. His answer:

Isaiah 6:6-7 (NKJV)
6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a live coal which he had taken with the tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth with it, and said:

“Behold, this has touched your lips;
Your iniquity is taken away,
And your sin purged.”​

I could go on and on with numerous other examples of God's cleansing fire, but it not going to change minds ... [never mind, self edited]

 

[atpollard]

(removed post which had been deleted)
Was Jesus speaking to Jews using Jewish culture as his frame of reference? Should context be ignored?
Were many of Paul's letters written to predominantly Gentile communities using Greek cultural references? Should that context be ignored?

I have created no false division. Each piece of the Bible was written at a time and a place and employs language and references that are best understood from the perspective of the original culture. Then one can correctly understand what is being communicated and apply the Truth to your culture and situation.

Frankly, if God intended this to be such a critical warning to all future Christians, wouldn't we expect him to have repeated it and made it much clearer than correctly interpreting a parable? I don't recall other parables being used to express truth vital to salvation. Salvation was something Jesus and the Apostles tended to be clear on. You alone seem to see this vital warning essential to our eternal security hidden in a reference to burning branches from a vine.

Edited It is a mistake to ignore the culture of the speaker and hearer when evaluating a parable and nonsense to think that the King of the Jews can address a gathering of Jews about a vine and burning branches and none of them would think he was speaking about Israel (as God's prophets had so many times before).

 

[JLB]

With this new wave of Christian Teachers has had, like Henry Ford have had a better idea and, today, preach a New Gospel. They have crumbled the tablets the Commandments were inscribed upon, put all the bones of the prophets into the trash and they are all down at the City Dump. Their understanding o9f the scriptures is not based in the reality of the Word of God. By using the New Testament only it must be easier to fleece the sheep because they all drive around new Mercedes and Caddys.

And when knock the legs out from under the New Testament and I can see a lot of possibilities for a dishonest man.

 

[reba]

This is closed until the mods show up to review the thread

 

[Mike]

Reopening after deleting and editing posts. Almost immediately it got personal, and few posts expressing disagreement included scripture to support their position. We'll try this one more time and expect better.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

10“Go up through her vine rows and destroy,
But do not execute a complete destruction;
Strip away her branches,
For they are not the LORD’S." (Jeremiah 5:10 NASB bold and underline mine)

2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away..." (John 15:2 NASB bold mine)

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief... (Romans 11:20 NASB bold mine)

"...but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either." (Romans 11:20-21 NASB bold mine)

Branches that are cut out of the vine do not belong to the Lord. They are unfruitful, unbelieving, unsaved branches. Paul points out that we, gentiles, "stand by faith", but that we too can and will be cut out of the vine if we do not continue in the Lord's kindness.

Fruitfulness is indeed a matter of belief and salvation. Not because fruitfulness earns salvation, but because fruitfulness is what "accompanies salvation":

"8but if it (the ground) yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love (fruitfulness) which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints." (Hebrews 6:8-10 NASB bold and underline and parenthesis mine)

We stand by faith. But if we don't continue in God's kindness and stop believing, and thus, stop producing fruit, we will, like the Israelites, be cut out of the vine, and burned as unbelieving, unsaved, unfruitful branches. The scriptures speak very plainly about this. Branches that are cut out of the vine because of unbelief and unfruitfulness simply do not belong to the Lord. In the end they will be burned.

40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:40-42 NASB)

 

[atpollard]

Branches that are cut out of the vine do not belong to the Lord. They are unfruitful, unbelieving, unsaved branches. Paul points out that we, gentiles, "stand by faith", but that we too can and will be cut out of the vine if we do not continue in the Lord's kindness.

Fruitfulness is indeed a matter of belief and salvation. Not because fruitfulness earns salvation, but because fruitfulness is what "accompanies salvation":

Give me a moment: :amen
OK, I feel better now that I got that out of my system.

"8 but if it (the ground) yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love (fruitfulness) which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints." (Hebrews 6:8-10 NASB bold and underline and parenthesis mine)

We stand by faith. But if we don't continue in God's kindness and stop believing, and thus, stop producing fruit, we will, like the Israelites, be cut out of the vine, and burned as unbelieving, unsaved, unfruitful branches. The scriptures speak very plainly about this. Branches that are cut out of the vine because of unbelief and unfruitfulness simply do not belong to the Lord. In the end they will be burned.

40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:40-42 NASB)

If we agreed 100% on everything, one of us would be superfluous.
I agree that a Christian (one 'claiming' to belong to Christ) WILL be "cut out of the vine" if they do not abide in the vine (although I suspect and believe they were never in the vine in the first place, but cannot prove that in 100% of the cases ... [Matthew 13:25-40 & 1 John 2:19] ... clearly it applies in some cases.)

However, I have underlined "close to being cursed" and "we are convinced of better things for you" because I also believe that the Saved (one of Jesus' sheep ... [John 6:37-40] ... one given by the father and promised to not be lost and raised on the last day) can not and will not be lost. It goes with having the law written on our heart [Psalm 40:8 & Ezekiel 36:25-27] and being sealed with the Holy Spirit [Ephesians 1:3-14]. Thus for God's sheep (by the mystery of His grace) there may be a stumbling, but there will be a correction of the children of God [Hebrews 12:4-13] so that we will NOT be lost, but restored.

The difficulty is that the church (visible) has wheat and tares growing side by side and we cannot tell the difference all of the time. As you quoted in Matthew 13, I say "Yes and Amen", but it is the tares and the goats and the wolves in sheep clothing and the sheep that are not of Jesus fold that are to be cast into the fire. Of the sheep that the Father had given him, Jesus will lose none (except the son of perdition who was lost to fulfill scripture).

 

[Jim Parker]

Branches that are cut out of the vine do not belong to the Lord. They are unfruitful, unbelieving, unsaved branches.

Those branches were "in Christ."
Their being "in Christ" means that they were "saved."
Rom 3:23-24 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
1Co 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
1Co 1:30 He (God) is the source of your life in Christ Jesus,

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those branches were "in Christ."
Their being "in Christ" means that they were "saved."

Agreed.
Branches that were once believing branches, but which then became unbelieving branches are cut off of the vine.
If they were believing branches they would be pruned back, not cut off.

 

[JLB]

I agree that a Christian (one 'claiming' to belong to Christ) WILL be "cut out of the vine" if they do not abide in the vine (although I suspect and believe they were never in the vine in the first place, but cannot prove that in 100% of the cases

How did these come to be in the Vine?

Eternal life is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Agreed.
Branches that were once believing branches, but which then became unbelieving branches are cut off of the vine.
If they were believing branches they would be pruned back, not cut off.

Ja wol!

 

[atpollard]

How did these come to be in the Vine?

Eternal life is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

JLB

See post #1.
The question was answered.

 

[JLB]

See post #1.
The question was answered.

Nope, my question was not answered in post 1.

This teaching concerns anyone, and teaches all of is, not just Jews, a valuable Kingdom principle.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw theminto the fire, and they are burned.

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw theminto the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

How did these come to be in the Vine?



JLB

 

[atpollard]

This teaching concerns anyone, and teaches all of is, not just Jews, a valuable Kingdom principle.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

1. We disagree on the meaning and intent of the parable.
2. If "anyone" must mean anyone (thus it must be both Jews and Gentiles), then does "he" (of "he is cast out") mean he (thus only men, and not women can be cast out)?

PS: The Jews were born into the vine of Israel and were thus either fruitful and worthy to be part of the True Vine (the Israel of God) or they were unfruitful and needed to be chopped off and cast away (which is what Jesus did - dividing those who believed from those who did not). Not until Romans is the Vine metaphor used again to explain how Gentiles (wild branches) are now grafted into the True Vine (the Israel of God).

 

[JLB]

1. We disagree on the meaning and intent of the parable.
2. If "anyone" must mean anyone (thus it must be both Jews and Gentiles), then does "he" (of "he is cast out") mean he (thus only men, and not women can be cast out)?

Anyone would include anyone who is connected in Him, whether man or woman.


JLB

 

[JLB]

1. We disagree on the meaning and intent of the parable.
2. If "anyone" must mean anyone (thus it must be both Jews and Gentiles), then does "he" (of "he is cast out") mean he (thus only men, and not women can be cast out)?

Jesus was speaking to the Church leadership in John 15:1-6

Those "in Christ" are neither Jew nor Gentile.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

2. If "anyone" must mean anyone (thus it must be both Jews and Gentiles), then does "he" (of "he is cast out") mean he (thus only men, and not women can be cast out)?

Following your mangled logic concerning the METAPHOR (NOT parable) of John 15, since Jesus was addressing a Jewish audience, then when He said "God so loved the world" He must have only been speaking of the JEWISH world and the "whoever believes" would only apply to Jews.

But, as I said, your logic is seriously mangled.