Bible Study John 17 (focusing on vs. 2)

[Mike]

I'm copying a post I made in the "Myth that Christ Died for All" thread that is now over 700 posts long. Wow. I'm doing it here, for two reasons. My post was largely largely overlooked, which is understandable, given the furious debate that's going on there. To the credit of Mondar, Drew and francisdesales, they didn't use it as a catalyst to fuel the fire but responded cordially.

I'm also placing this here, because I would really like to have this explored in a meaningful way without a debate mentality. I have no agenda in posing the question. I was struck and caught off guard for whatever reason in studying it this time around, and I'd need to work through this. Since this is the Bible Study Forum, let us take an approach that fosters growth. Actually, I should have gone here in the first place.

Thank you.

***********

To anyone who has read my understanding of predestination in various threads, this will come as a surprise. Do you ever read something for the 1000th time in scripture, and it sticks out differently than it ever has? Most of us would say yes.

Yesterday, I was composing a thread http://www.christianforums.net/f21/i-have-overcome-world-33407/?pagenumber= , and I cited John 17 among other verses.

*sigh*

John 17
1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

I've heard all the arguments for predestination, and I've always opposed them. I have to say, though, that these words have hung in my heart with me since I created that thread. They're still hanging there, and I'm praying through this.

"all those that you gave Him"

*sigh*

 

[Sparkey]

Hi, Mike.

I like your signature.
"Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and His paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?" It reminds me of the meaning of your name, Michael: "Who is like God???"

Is this not what Jesus was speaking about when he spoke to His Father about all those who had been given to him? I like the call of Nathanael, for example, and oftentimes have wondered about it.

[John 1:47-49 KJV] - Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.​

Jesus "saw" Nathanael when he was under the fig tree. God 'gave' him to our Lord and we aren't told how. Something extraordinary happened, we can tell. "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel."

~Sparrow

 

[Hitch]

Much earlier Jesus said;

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


And Im sure that appeared often in the original thread. But Chirst is never Savior or Judge, he is never Friend or God, he is always both. Verse 45 shows this in a way that is as warming to the hearts of the believers as it is chilling to the rest:



45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


NIV:
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

 

[reba]

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[Mike]

Sparrow and Hitch, my first impression of the verses you cite appear to be explainable from the understanding that, independent of the Holy Spirit, we do not have the capacity to believe. That's something I've always agreed with. John 17:2 seems to say something much different and takes it a step further.

I've I'm missing something, let me know, but that's the way I read it.

 

[Hitch]

Sparrow and Hitch, my first impression of the verses you cite appear to be explainable from the understanding that, independent of the Holy Spirit, we do not have the capacity to believe. That's something I've always agreed with. John 17:2 seems to say something much different and takes it a step further.

I've I'm missing something, let me know, but that's the way I read it.

Im not sure I get your point.

I see it as a unit, John ,as author, is making a point intentionally. Those that are Christ's are gifts from the Father.

This theme is constant in John's book, and as noted, brought home in the chapter 17 passage.

Gifts from the Father....

I cant imagine a greater honor.

 

[Mike]

Im not sure I get your point.

I see it as a unit, John ,as author, is making a point intentionally. Those that are Christ's are gifts from the Father.

This theme is constant in John's book, and as noted, brought home in the chapter 17 passage.

Gifts from the Father....

I cant imagine a greater honor.

I'll see I can make myself more clear...

Much earlier Jesus said;

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


And Im sure that appeared often in the original thread. But Chirst is never Savior or Judge, he is never Friend or God, he is always both. Verse 45 shows this in a way that is as warming to the hearts of the believers as it is chilling to the rest:



45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


NIV:
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Vs. 44 could easily be interpreted to say simply what I said earlier... no one has the capacity to grasp their faith without the work of the Holy Spirit. Same with vs. 45. If a person has learned or "responded" to the call of the Father shall be His, but he cannot do it on his own. I'm not getting the same implications from vs. 2 which says "all those you have given Him [Jesus]" To me, anyway, this stands out more to say that some have been given to Christ, and some have not.

I hope I've been more clear in my post here. If I have and you see it differently, help a brother out.

 

[Sissy]

John 17
1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

I've heard all the arguments for predestination, and I've always opposed them. I have to say, though, that these words have hung in my heart with me since I created that thread. They're still hanging there, and I'm praying through this.

"all those that you gave Him"

*sigh*

I sympathize with your dilemma.
Be careful not to hold onto any one verse too terribly strict.

Because at first glance, it would appear that ANYONE whom the Father gave to the Son would have eternal life.

But later in this same chapter, we read:

John 17
(11) And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
(12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
​

Also, if we hold verse 2 too terribly strict, then it appears as if the Father only gives the Son a certain portion, and not all.

But again, from the same book of John, we read:

John 3
(35) The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 13
(3) Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
​

Many times when you hold a verse too terribly strict, it will appear on the surface to contradict another verse.

 

[Hitch]

I'll see I can make myself more clear...



Vs. 44 could easily be interpreted to say simply what I said earlier... no one has the capacity to grasp their faith without the work of the Holy Spirit. Same with vs. 45. If a person has learned or "responded" to the call of the Father shall be His, but he cannot do it on his own. I'm not getting the same implications from vs. 2 which says "all those you have given Him [Jesus]" To me, anyway, this stands out more to say that some have been given to Christ, and some have not.

I hope I've been more clear in my post here. If I have and you see it differently, help a brother out.

I see quite a difference between your paraphrase and the original

45. If a person has learned or "responded" to the call of the Father shall be His, but he cannot do it on his own.



45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


No option is mentioned and choice here is entirely in God's hands.

Shortly before Jesus had said;

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

The Father sends or declines to send the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in these passages about any kind of offer or option. Jesus speaks of those before conversion , not as rebels or apostates needing convincing but as the dead needing to pass from death to life.


Clearly our views of sovereignty are distant.

H

 

[Nathan]

I just came across this and thought I might chime in. I fully understand what you are seeing and saying. I saw it when you posted it before I read anymore of your post. I have not studied it from this angle before, but I am always up for some good studying. So, what is going to follow will be the outcome of a fresh approach to this text and not something I have ever looked at before.

At first glance what I see is a two verse long sentence. That is, it starts with "Father, the hour has come...." And does end till "...all whom you have given Him." Is that significant? Well in effect it makes it challenging because there are a few different trains of thought happening here that can be all pulled out and used independently if a person wants.

I think that the only way to accurately understand is to go to the original language. I have said it before, and I'll say it again, there is a reason the New Testament was written in Greek. It is a very descriptive language. What I can see from a basic view and look at different translations, is that the phrase "all whom you have given him", is a 'dependent clause'. That is, (and I must warn you I am terrible at English), that it is a phrase that is dependent upon the main 'theme' of the rest of the sentence for accurate meaning.

So, let me break that down. Jesus was making the simple statement, inside the more complex statement, more than less acknowledging that God was giving them to Him. If this is true, we will find out from the word usage. What is the verb, what is the adverb, what is the noun, etc. We can more accurately dissect the verse and interpret it when we look at the structure it is originally wrote in. Ok, am I just using "big" words to make myself look good? No. lol. I wish I was that smart. This is just how I study.

So lets look at the last part of that sentence, in verse 2.

all whom you have given him

"all" is a adjective. We know that an adjective modifies the noun, or in this case, the pronoun.

"whom" is a pronoun. But its not any ordinary pronoun. Its a relative pronoun. Interesting. I have never heard of a relative pronoun in my life. Just kidding, I am sure its back there in the back of my mind somewhere. Moving on...

This is taken from wikipedia; A relative pronoun is a pronoun that marks a relative clause within a larger sentence. It is called a relative pronoun because it relates to the word that it modifies and is not specific.

Ok, then the question is, what word does it relate to, or what word does it modify? "Him". That is the pronoun in the sentence. That Him is Christ. So, all whom modifies or relates to Christ.

But, what we are leaving out is that this is just the dependent clause. Here is another technical definition of a dependent clause;

wikipedia; A dependent clause (also subordinate clause) is a clause used in conjunction with the independent clause, augmenting or attributing it. Dependent clauses cannot stand alone as a sentence; instead, they always modify the independent clause of a sentence. Although a dependent clause contains a subject and a predicate, it sounds incomplete when standing alone.

So you can see how because it contains a subject and predicate it can sometimes be pulled 'out of context' and used falsely.

So, what does this all boil down to? Jesus is simply making the statement, giving the 'credit to' if you will, that God is the One who gives all things...even to the Son. That is the meaning, in its context. Sure, it could be viewed as the Father has given some, but not others, however that is NOT what Jesus is saying when He makes this statement. But as people do, it will always be made to make things muddy for those who are truly searching. Because those who are not truly searching could care less what He meant by the statement.

Hope that helps Mike. You have been a blessing to me, I hope that God uses me for a blessing to you.

 

[Mike]

Maybe I'm a stubborn nut, and maybe I'm a fickle one.

Everyone's had great input.

Reba, you gave good cross references, but none of your own thoughts. I'd like to hear those. Sissy, I've always maintained free will, and I've stood toe-to-toe with Calvinists who would say a verse like 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't refute their predestination theology because he's "only speaking to believers". I'm not likely to change my opinion on this matter over one verse, but as I said, it stands out.

Nathan, that was a good diagram of the sentence. Your 11th grade English teacher would be proud. Over the entire body of scripture, I believe your assessment works. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time applying other verses that are easily explained to this one. And let me throw this out there. John 17:2 from the KJV:

"2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."

This would seem to say even more clearly than the NIV (to me anyway) that some are not. If everyone just tires over my struggle with this verse, I'll understand and continue to take it to the Lord in prayer. It's probably frustrating you all. Using other verses doesn't do a lot for me, unless they use the same verbiage to describe "some given to him" as this one does. :

 

[Elijah674]

I'll see I can make myself more clear...



Vs. 44 could easily be interpreted to say simply what I said earlier... no one has the capacity to grasp their faith without the work of the Holy Spirit. Same with vs. 45. If a person has learned or "responded" to the call of the Father shall be His, but he cannot do it on his own. I'm not getting the same implications from vs. 2 which says "all those you have given Him [Jesus]" To me, anyway, this stands out more to say that some have been given to Christ, and some have not.

I hope I've been more clear in my post here. If I have and you see it differently, help a brother out.

The Striving of the Holy Ghost comes to all. Gen. 6:3. Yet, the Submission of His Acts 5:32 Condition only comes to some! (John 3:5-8) The Predestination has only been known by the Godhead, and that was from Eternity. They know what their creation will do & the ones who are finally saved (Heb. 11:13) were saved by, an only in final Obedience because their MATURE FAITH! (Nah. 1:9)

OK: We agree (?) God knew this from eternity. But we know ONLY BY FAITH, huh?

In Rom. 4:17 (in part) we see.. '....even God... [and calleth those things which BE NOT as though [THEY WERE].' God can, and did EXACTLY this with His to/be future Son! He even gave us a PREDESTINATED Picture in Proverbs 8:22-31 of Christ/Son playing in the streets 'in the habitable part of the earth; and My delights were with the sons of men.' v.31

And the point? God did give this as FACT in Their Forknowledge.. AS A DONE DEAL FACT!But we cannot know the future FACT except by FAITH! Yes, the Godhead knew in Eternity what our Faith would be, but we DO NOT KNOW EXCEPT BY FAITH! [OBEDIENT FAITH].

--Elijah

 

[Nathan]

Nathan, that was a good diagram of the sentence. Your 11th grade English teacher would be proud. Over the entire body of scripture, I believe your assessment works. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time applying other verses that are easily explained to this one. And let me throw this out there. John 17:2 from the KJV:

"2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."

This would seem to say even more clearly than the NIV (to me anyway) that some are not. If everyone just tires over my struggle with this verse, I'll understand and continue to take it to the Lord in prayer. It's probably frustrating you all. Using other verses doesn't do a lot for me, unless they use the same verbiage to describe "some given to him" as this one does. :[/B]

Maybe your a stubborn nut?

Just messing with you.

I hope he/she is proud. I had some wild years after that and I could not tell you who it was that taught me English. One thing I can say is that I remember vividly me detesting it and never thinking it would be useful.

I think that you answer your own question in a sense. If you stop and think about it, where else is there that Jesus speaks to only some being given to Him? And the very fact that He does not even use the word "some" should be a good bit of evidence that it is not what He is implying by His prayer. Its not frustrating talking with you. However, it is absolutely necessary to go to the original language to understand what is being said here. That is if there are any questions to what Jesus is saying. And obviously there are question here.

We all too often forget that our "English" translations are very, very limited on the description they can give to what the writer, or even God, is saying. That is why we must rely HEAVILY upon the Spirit in our learning and understanding, but also the very language it was written in. Think back. Where did the different languages come from? There was one time that everyone spoke the same language. Then God confused them by making the different dialects. So why do we think that if God intentionally created different dialects to confuse people, that we would be able to understand anothers language and thoughts so easily without some intense study of what they are saying in their own language?

What I mean is that in order to accurately understand the meaning of another people's thoughts and intentions, it is a must that you understand their language. It is impossible, yes impossible, to fully grasp the original intention of a passage by referencing it only to other translated passages without diving into the writers original language. We speak different languages for the sole purpose of being 'confused'. Make sense? Think about it. Its sometimes hard to understand someone else's intention even when they speak your own language, much less one that is completely foreign to you.

For me, I am grateful that you brought this topic up. I probably hold much the same lines you do on this topic. And much like you there are sometimes little things that I get hung up on because I like to view others points of view. But when I dove into this and studied it like I did, it was more than just a sentence dissection. It was plain, only through intense study of the way the sentence structure in Greek, that He was specifically saying that it is God that gives. It has absolutely nothing to do with quantity or selection. It has everything to do with the fact that it is God who gives. And we see that fact reiterated through out the rest of Jesus testimony.

I wish I could convince you. But there is no way around the original language for this type of understanding. And those who say it is not crucial to do so are only saying it because they do not want to fully grasp the writings. Does that mean that only those who are schooled in the ways of the Greek and Hebrew dialects are the only ones who can be wise in the things of God? Of course not! I have never sat through one iota of training concerning those languages. It is the Spirit of God at work in me that enables me to understand.

What we have done in our modern Christianity is become an all inclusive 'body of Christ' within ourselves. But the fact remains that although we become a part of the body by the grace and power of God, we are only one individual part of it. And so, because one may have the ability to "grasp" some things, and another "expell" some things, and another to "see" some things, and yet another to "hear" some things, does it mean that they are better off than the ones that are able to "walk" somewhere? We all have different gifts. But only when we can trust each other, become unified under Christ, do we see the beauty of anothers God given ability.

I am not trying to convince you, although it sounds like it , to just blindly agree with what I am saying about the verse. I am just trying to throw some things out there to help out. Think about this. When you are cutting a carrot, or an onion, or anything with a knife; does your left hand constantly worry about your right hand holding the knife? Or does your left hand work in harmony with your right when it is submitted to your head?

What about when you type? Does your right hand worry about trying to type on the left side of the keyboard or does it understand that your left hand will take care of it? Does that mean that they are the same body part? Does that mean that they are equally strong? I know mine are not. I can do ten times the amount of things with my right hand than my left, but when it comes to typing it is crucial that I have both unless I want to struggle with a thought all night long.

Here is what I am getting at. Study it for yourself by all means, but the verse that you are hung up on gives absolutely no credit to the argument of God saving some, and not saving others. Now, if you want to struggle over that then go read Romans chapter 9. There you will find something to struggle over. But in this particular case, Jesus is not giving any indication to that, but only giving God all the glory for being the one who gives all things. Look how it is spoken of in the third person. Why is He doing that? To make the point that it is God that gives, and not we that come on our own.

Anyways, I know that I just threw a lot at you. Sorry. But its a passion of mine to speak truth when it seems to be getting put behind a veil of confusion. And yes, in a sense I am saying "trust me on this one", just because I am fully convinced that it is not talking at all about anything that has to do with Calvinism or Armenianism. Like I said, I am open to others thoughts and will study them and indeed I can see where the idea can come from. But it cannot be attributed to this verse unless it is completely taken out of context and the original language it was written in is completely chopped up.

With all of that said. I am more than willing to hear myself anyone else's argument to this. I in no way think that because I know without a doubt it means we should just stop talk on this passage. I like the way Paul laid it out.

1Cr 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.

1Cr 14:27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.

1Cr 14:28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

1Cr 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.

1Cr 14:30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent.

1Cr 14:31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged,

1Cr 14:32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.

1Cr 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

I would have no problem whatsoever with someone 'weighing' what I have said as long as they are not doing it out of a desire to just promote their point of view of the subject. I looked at this objectively. I by no means think that I am the only one able to do this. I would love it if someone who has a better understanding of the Greek language would come on here and dissect it even further, maybe going into the surrounding verses.

 

[reba]

Mike,

Reba, you gave good cross references, but none of your own thoughts. I'd like to hear those.

When it comes to scripture my thoughts are simple "the scripture says"

I had 50+ years of total acceptance of "someones own thoughts" When i read the Word just me and God, the change of heart was amazing.

The best way i can tell you my thoughts is to ask... What is God saying to you?

 

[Sparkey]

Mike, sorry but I'm no experty on predestination. Too simple minded maybe. Your post describes a dilemma that I'm familiar with to a degree (people twist scripture all the time). But I don't hear any conflict in what you quoted and said. Can you explain a little more what is bothering you exactly?

~Sparrow

 

[Mike]

Can you explain a little more what is bothering you exactly?

~Sparrow

I'll answer your question in response to Nathan, Reba (love the avatar pic, BTW ) and others who have chimed in.

It's just the way this verse words it that has cause me to pause. I think I've explained best I can why this sticks out from the rest of scripture. That said, I feel I am being lead to overcome this obstacle. I've always been firmly convicted to believe that He desires all would come to Him and have rejected the notion that He would predestine some not to. The fact that this one piece of scripture "seems" to stand out from the rest of it is the reason I'm using to overcome this "seeming anomaly". It's not like me to get hung up on one verse and allow it to balance or tip the scales of the whole.

I am resolving to allow the wording of this verse to be in harmony with the rest of His Word. To Nathan's point, considering the language translations, I can't let the way small part is worded in mine to obscure the complete understanding I have of His desire. Overall, I know He Foreknew (Foreknows) all that will be. I see the point. He sees the line.

For all the bickering that goes on with this board, this is truly where this group of believers shines, IMO. (along with the CT&A) I didn't see anyone try to convince me, but all were working me through this. This is a testimony to how effective we can be together.

Thanks for everyone's input and help. Shine on, brothers and sisters.

 

[Nathan]

You hit the nail on the head with that post. It is nice to see a person look at things from different perspectives without trying to 'make' someone believe something. From where I am standing it looked like you had it already figured out, but you still took the time to try and understand where someone else might be coming from. I am SO glad you did not take my posts as trying to make you think you were unwise for working through this. It is very wise to be grounded and firm in your faith. And we should all work diligently to make sure we are grounded in our faith. If we just pretend to be then we are only fooling ourselves.

It is also nice to know that when we do come to a point when our faith is grounded in a particular aspect, then we can be bold about it without fear that the other will mistake it for pressure. Right now I am going through a learning processes concerning the Sabbath. I will be out in the open and admit that I am trying to grasp the whole idea of it, and what it is. I have not yet reached a point that I can stand fast and firm and say I know this to be true, and have no questions about it.

That is not the case with this passage in John 17. I know exactly what He is saying, there is no doubt in my mind. It is rather a peaceful thing when you can reach that point, and it is the reason I sympathize with people who have not reached that point because I know that there is still uneasiness about it and its not a good 'feeling'. So. Once you get this figured out jump on over to the study on the Sabbath and help a brother out.

 

[Mike]

Once you get this figured out jump on over to the study on the Sabbath and help a brother out.

Thanks Nathan. But anytime I see a thread over 100 posts long on something like that, I let that boat sail on without me. I don't like coming in so late in the conversation after so much has been said. I wish I would have picked up on it sooner.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I'm copying a post I made in the "Myth that Christ Died for All" thread that is now over 700 posts long. Wow. I'm doing it here, for two reasons. My post was largely largely overlooked, which is understandable, given the furious debate that's going on there. To the credit of Mondar, Drew and francisdesales, they didn't use it as a catalyst to fuel the fire but responded cordially.

I'm also placing this here, because I would really like to have this explored in a meaningful way without a debate mentality. I have no agenda in posing the question. I was struck and caught off guard for whatever reason in studying it this time around, and I'd need to work through this. Since this is the Bible Study Forum, let us take an approach that fosters growth. Actually, I should have gone here in the first place.

Thank you.

***********

To anyone who has read my understanding of predestination in various threads, this will come as a surprise. Do you ever read something for the 1000th time in scripture, and it sticks out differently than it ever has? Most of us would say yes.

Yesterday, I was composing a thread http://www.christianforums.net/f21/i-have-overcome-world-33407/?pagenumber= , and I cited John 17 among other verses.

*sigh*

John 17
1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

I've heard all the arguments for predestination, and I've always opposed them. I have to say, though, that these words have hung in my heart with me since I created that thread. They're still hanging there, and I'm praying through this.

"all those that you gave Him"

*sigh*

Interesting...........
Looking at the full context of chapter 17 as well as chapters 14-16, one is led to conclude that all those you have given him is a direct reference to the 12 apostles.
Look at the following verses:

6 ‘I’ve made Your Name shine among the men that You gave me from the world… they were Yours, but You gave them to me, and they’ve obeyed all Your words. 7 They also realize that everything You gave me came from You, 8 for I passed along to them all the things that You told me, and these [things] were welcomed by them… and they know for a fact that I came here from You. Yes, they believe that it was You who sent me.
9 ‘So, it’s on their behalf that I’m asking. I’m not asking on behalf of the whole world, just on behalf of these whom You’ve given to me, because they’re Yours. 10 For, all that’s mine is Yours, and all that’s Yours is mine; and I’ve been glorified among them. 11 But, because I’m no longer in this world (while they are), and I’m coming to You, Holy Father; Watch over these that You’ve given to me because of Your Name, so that they may be one as we are.
12 ‘I’ve watched over these while I was with them (these whom You’ve given me because of Your Name)… I’ve watched over them so that none were destroyed (except for the son of destruction), in order for the Scriptures to be fulfilled.
13 ‘But I’m coming to You now, and I’m saying these things in the world so that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I’ve given them Your Words; and the world has hated them because they’re not of this arrangement just as I’m not of this arrangement.
15 ‘I’m not asking You to take them out of the world, but to guard them because of the Wicked One, 16 since they’re not of this arrangement just as I’m not of this arrangement.
17 ‘Make them holy in the truth, for Your Word is the truth! 18 And as You sent me into the world, I’m sending them into the world. 19 Therefore, I’m making myself something holy for them, so they can be holy in truth.

Jesus made a distinction between the 12 and others who would later become his followers whom he prayed for as well with his words in verse 20.

 

[Nathan]

Interesting...........
Looking at the full context of chapter 17 as well as chapters 14-16, one is led to conclude that all those you have given him is a direct reference to the 12 apostles.
Look at the following verses:


Jesus made a distinction between the 12 and others who would later become his followers whom he prayed for as well with his words in verse 20.

Excellent! Now combine that truth with the fact He was giving God all the glory, and you have a "double negative" against the idea of this being used as proof text for only 'some' being called.