John 3:16

[elijah23]

Either one ceases to exist or one burns forever, I would think. It doesn’t matter. Just believe in Jesus, wouldn’t you say?

 

[Ahuli]

Either one ceases to exist or one burns forever, I would think. It doesn’t matter. Just believe in Jesus, wouldn’t you say?

It matters very much. It has an effect on how we live, but more so, on how we view our Lord. Does He keep His promise and make an end to sin, or is He malevolent and torments satan's victims forever? Has He given satan the power to torment? In other words, is He in cahoots with satan, do they have a deal? There is so much to consider here. Our perception of a loving God is foremost.

 

[Ahuli]

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What does the word "perish" mean to you vis a vis everlasting life. Thank you.

Perish means perish. In this sense, I discern that you and I agree - the fate of the lost is not an eternity of torment but rather cessation of existence.

Indeed! If one group has eternal life with God, and the other group perishes, then the second group ceases to exist. Thank you.[/quote]



But that is not what the word "perish" means in John 3:16 ! [/quote]
Then please tell me what it means in John 3:16. Also, please explain the "shame" smilie.[/quote]
Yes it is. They will burn up.

Hi

LOL, it was the only icon that was shaking its head - NO - LOL

Here is how the verse in John 3:16 should be understood ---->

John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not [perish] be unuseful, but have everlasting life"

The word "perish" does not mean to cease to exist anymore. It is talking about usefullness

Within eternal life, which is everlasting life, we become useful to God. Remember that his sheep hear his voice. And, For many are called, but few are chosen. Not ALL are called, but many.

Those not called, are not going to cease to exist anymore ! There is a resurrection of the dead, and the Word of God also calls the two resurrections, one of the just and the other of the unjust.

Every person who ever lived, will be raised from the dead. One group unto the "bema" - Judgement seat of Christ. And the other group goes before the white throne judgement, which is the judgement seat of the unjust. If their names have been taken out of the book of life by God himself. Then and only then will they be put into the second death forever and ever. But they will exist !

We heed the call from our Lord, our shepherd. So we are useful to the Lord. The word "perish" means to be unuseful. Yes, it means to decay, but in light of its usage and understanding. Meat that decays now becomes "unuseful".

We who believe on the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, will not be unuseful ! Which means we will be "Useful"

We are Ambassador's for Christ , unto the world < Useful :yes[/quote]
The 'unuseful' are then what? Perished? Decayed? Dead? Gone forever? The memory of them shall be forgotten? They are burnt up in the furnace of fire? (Mal 4)[/quote]


Hi

Mal. 4 is talking about the "wicked", they will burn :onfire[/quote]
Indeed, they will burn up.

 

[elijah23]

Either one ceases to exist or one burns forever, I would think. It doesn’t matter. Just believe in Jesus, wouldn’t you say?

It matters very much. It has an effect on how we live, but more so, on how we view our Lord. Does He keep His promise and make an end to sin, or is He malevolent and torments satan's victims forever? Has He given satan the power to torment? In other words, is He in cahoots with satan, do they have a deal? There is so much to consider here. Our perception of a loving God is foremost.

I don’t think the Lord torments anybody forever. He allows us to experience torment right here on earth, because that is the only way to get us to repent of our sin. Theoretically you could suffer forever, but that would only happen if, throughout all eternity, you refused to repent.

 

[Vic C.]

Ahuli, could you please fix the quotes in your post above? We can't follow who posted what as it stands now.

thanks in advance.

 

[Ahuli]

Ahuli, could you please fix the quotes in your post above? We can't follow who posted what as it stands now.

thanks in advance.

Sorry, I got a little lost "up there". If you have a question, please just ask me. And, if I have one for you, I'll ask you as well.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm looking for perish vis a vis, or opposite, eternal life. A group with eternal life with God. The group without that is the group that perishes or dies for eternity.

The latter would be this group:

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. From Malachi 4

Thank you.

Those not found written in the book of life will perish.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Ahuli]

I'm looking for perish vis a vis, or opposite, eternal life. A group with eternal life with God. The group without that is the group that perishes or dies for eternity.

The latter would be this group:

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. From Malachi 4

Thank you.

Those not found written in the book of life will perish.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Back to square one ... what does perish mean?

 

[glorydaz]

Those not found written in the book of life will perish.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Back to square one ... what does perish mean?

Oh, sorry. Are you looking at the aspect of eternal suffering in hell? I don't see that from the word perish. John goes on to mention no "life" at all. After the judgment, there will be either eternal life or eternal death.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[archangel_300]

Either one ceases to exist or one burns forever, I would think. It doesn’t matter. Just believe in Jesus, wouldn’t you say?

It matters very much. It has an effect on how we live, but more so, on how we view our Lord. Does He keep His promise and make an end to sin, or is He malevolent and torments satan's victims forever? Has He given satan the power to torment? In other words, is He in cahoots with satan, do they have a deal? There is so much to consider here. Our perception of a loving God is foremost.

I do believe in eternal torment for sins. Malevolent is the wrong word used for the justice of God.
God is going to be perfectly just in rewarding sins their due punishment. We will only come to an understanding of just how bad sin is when judgment day comes. Nothing is taken lightly before God seeing that every idle word we speak will come under judgment. The thing is we as humans are created in the image of God and that also means that we are created to exist forever.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.â€

2 Thessalonians 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.

I think Luke 16 contains a very telling passage of scripture that shows after the judgment of God passes there will be a place they continue to exist without the mercy of God.

Luke 16:24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

 

[glorydaz]

I do believe in eternal torment for sins. Malevolent is the wrong word used for the justice of God.
God is going to be perfectly just in rewarding sins their due punishment.

The wages of sin is death.

2 Thessalonians 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.

Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.

I think Luke 16 contains a very telling passage of scripture that shows after the judgment of God passes there will be a place they continue to exist without the mercy of God.

Luke 16:24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

I see this as the place of waiting until the judgment, rather than eternity.

The lake of fire is the second death for humans. Satan and the fallen angels may be tormented forever there, but man only has eternal life if he's been written in the Lamb's book of life.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Ahuli]

Those not found written in the book of life will perish.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Back to square one ... what does perish mean?

Oh, sorry. Are you looking at the aspect of eternal suffering in hell? I don't see that from the word perish. John goes on to mention no "life" at all. After the judgment, there will be either eternal life or eternal death.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[/quote]
Then you agree that the wicked will cease to exist and not burn in hell forever?

 

[archangel_300]

I think Luke 16 contains a very telling passage of scripture that shows after the judgment of God passes there will be a place they continue to exist without the mercy of God.

Luke 16:24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

I see this as the place of waiting until the judgment, rather than eternity.

It can't be, the reason being is because no one is suffering in "hell" for their sins yet.

Matthew 16:28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.â€

It is only after the final judgment of God comes that the lake of fire / second death become reality. Unsaved man must go through an official trial by God first and this comes when Jesus returns.
We also know this parable is talking about the second death because later on in the parable the discussion of repentence comes up. Luke 16 is just a parable to illustrate that which is to come namely the division between the saved and the unsaved and where they end up spending eternity.

Here are a few more verses which also state that punishment for sins is never ending.
Notice that Christ states the phrase 3 times "their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched".
Christ also repeatedly underscores the fact that the fires of hell are *never* quenched as this is something very important we all need to understand.

Mark 9:42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’[d]
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’[e]
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’[f]

Unimaginable trouble awaits those who don't take Christ's message of repentence seriously. Typically God uses symbols in the scripture to demonstrate a spiritual reality/truth. The spiritual reality is typically far greater than the symbol used to illustrate the point.

 

[glorydaz]

Oh, sorry. Are you looking at the aspect of eternal suffering in hell? I don't see that from the word perish. John goes on to mention no "life" at all. After the judgment, there will be either eternal life or eternal death.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Then you agree that the wicked will cease to exist and not burn in hell forever?

Yes, I do.

 

[glorydaz]

It can't be, the reason being is because no one is suffering in "hell" for their sins yet.

Matthew 16:28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.â€

I hope you don't mind if I address this in stages. This verse from Matt. is not talking about the Lord's second coming, but His ascension and Pentecost.

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Read it here in Mark...

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

"But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you."(Luke 11:20)

The King came...his power came at Pentecost when He ascended to the throne. There were some standing there that day who did not taste death...for they were all gathered in one accord when the tongues of fire came upon them.

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

 

[glorydaz]

It is only after the final judgment of God comes that the lake of fire / second death become reality.

It is after the judgment that hades and death are thrown into the lake of fire.

Unsaved man must go through an official trial by God first and this comes when Jesus returns.

I don't think this idea is supported by Scripture.

We also know this parable is talking about the second death because later on in the parable the discussion of repentence comes up. Luke 16 is just a parable to illustrate that which is to come namely the division between the saved and the unsaved and where they end up spending eternity.

I don't agree. Luke 16 does not pass the test of being a parable. The saints from the OT, and the unrighteous dead were in the place of waiting...just as Jesus describes it. Hades/Sheol is mistranslated as hell in many versions (including the KJV - my version of choice). One must go to Young's Literal to see the differences.

 

[glorydaz]

I'll just briefly speak to the subject of everlasting torment. I realize there are some verses that would seem to conflict, but perish and die seem to be the fate of man...those not born of God.

I don't believe man is given eternal life until he's born of the Spirit. The unrighteous dead will be judged and thrown into the lake of fire when hades and death are disposed of there. They will face the second "death". They have not been given eternal life like the believers have.

The everlasting fire was prepared for the devil and his angels...they are spirits and don't die.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[archangel_300]

I hope you don't mind if I address this in stages. This verse from Matt. is not talking about the Lord's second coming, but His ascension and Pentecost.

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Read it here in Mark...[quote="Mark 9:1":2yvd797k]And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

"But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you."(Luke 11:20)

The King came...his power came at Pentecost when He ascended to the throne. There were some standing there that day who did not taste death...for they were all gathered in one accord when the tongues of fire came upon them.

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

[/quote:2yvd797k]

Hi Glory good to be debating with you again brother.

Fair enough argument.
So lets take a look at the phrase "taste death". What is meant by this particular phrase?

John 8:52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’

John 11:26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?â€

Typically in the word when Christ refers to someone physically dead he refers to them as "sleeping" not "dead". (John 11:11)

Can we agree here that the verse in Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1 refer to taste death as in damnation?
If yes, let's continue forward.

Mark 9:1 And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.â€

Matthew 16:28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.â€

I would be inclined to agree with what you are saying if we only had Mark 9:1 as a verse.
But Matthew 16:28 seals the deal as this is definitely referring to the return of Christ.

Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

All the tribes of the earth will mourn because judgment day has arrived. We know this is the case because if we read down to verse Matthew 24:36-51 we see that we are to be watching for Christ's return otherwise the day of God will overtake us like a thief, we may not be prepared and we will be assigned to a place where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth". Also we can take a look at Revelation 19 and 20 to verify that judgment occurs when Christ returns.

If Matthew 16:28 refers to the time when the apostles were given power by the Holy Spirit. Why is it that there are some who would not see eternal damnation until that time came? If people are suffering eternal damnation since the time of Pentecost, why is there a resurrection of the dead for judgment on the last day? And if the dead are raised for judgment, why are they then cast into death once again?

As it is written:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

This verse suggests that once unsaved men die the next thing they realize is that they are resurrected for judgment when Christ returns on the last day.

 

[savedbygrace57]

John 3:16

Those whom God So Loved in Jn 3:16, could not have been every individual in the world without exception, because if So, then that would mean that He Loved them with an everlasting Love Jer 31:3, it would mean that in Love He predestinated them unto the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ to Himself eph 1:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In Love here can very easily be joined with the first phrase in vs 5, Love here refers to that Love with which God loves His Chosen Ones [ deut 7:6-7] God's Love is grounded in His Choice of A People as we can see from deut 7:6-7, and so if God Loved everyone without exception in Jn 3:16, that is like saying God has Chosen everyone in the World without exception, which we know is not True. In this Love, its such a Love that God's Chosen Ones will experimentally become Holy and without blame before Him, and that cannot be True of those Jesus will yet say Matt 25:


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Remember, the Chosen were Blessed eph 1:

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[stovebolts]

savedbygrace57,

If you look at the context of Mt 25, you have to consider
Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Scripture is clear, the context is nations.

Praise be to God for his great love.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Isreal was not chosen, nor saved because of their righteousness. No, they were a stiff necked people...