John 3:16

[stovebolts]

sb:



It does not matter what type of sinners they are for whom Christ died, all of them shall be made righteous by virtue of His one obedience of death..rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The point remains however, if they are never made righteous, then Christ did not die for them..

sbg,
With all due respect, by stating that Christ did not die for "them", infers that Christ did not love them and I don't think that's the case.

Yes, as the passage you've quoted states, many are made righteous through the obedience of Christ, but it also states that many were made sinners by on man's disobedience. Aside from Jesus, who else was not made a sinner through Adam's disobedience? (Romans 5:12)

Why then do you insist that Jesus only died for the righteous?

 

[savedbygrace57]

sb:

sbg,
With all due respect, by stating that Christ did not die for "them", infers that Christ did not love them and I don't think that's the case.

Well, its quite obvious to me, if Christ Loved them as He does His church which He died for eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave[died] himself for it;

Now, if Christ died for one because He loved them, and His obedience[His death] shall make many righteous, then its reasonable to conclude that those never made righteous, He did not love or die for..Being made righteous is the effect of His Love and Death !

Why then do you insist that Jesus only died for the righteous?

Where did I insist that ? Christ died for sinners, unrighteous in themselves, and by His death makes them righteous..

 

[rgswaim]

Hello from a new guy.

The verse itself tells us the meaning if perish. The part that follows perish says, "but have eternal life". The opposite of eternal life would be death. If we believe on Him, Jesus, we will have eternal life.

 

[stovebolts]

So let me get this straight sbg,

Your saying that Jesus only loved those he died for and those whom he did not love are bound to eternal torment.

Is this about right in your view?

 

[stovebolts]

The point remains however, if they are never made righteous, then Christ did not die for them..

Why then do you insist that Jesus only died for the righteous?

Where did I insist that ? Christ died for sinners, unrighteous in themselves, and by His death makes them righteous.

Well, you're saying that Christ only died for those who were made righteous... Thus, Christ only died for the righteous.

Now then, one could construe, based on your last reply that Christ only died for sinners who would be made righteous, but this appears to me as a slippery slope because this gift, is regarded by Paul as a free gift... and gifts are given, but are all gifts recieved?

Mark 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

 

[savedbygrace57]

sb:

Well, you're saying that Christ only died for those who were made righteous...

Yes, they are made righteous, because before they were made righteous, they were made sinners..The outcome of Christ death makes them who were sinners, righteous..so hence, all those who are never made righteous, Christ could not have died for them..Christ death saves sinners from their sins..Matt 1:

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

But the promise is limited to His People, His Sheep, His Church..not all mankind..

 

[savedbygrace57]

sb:

Now then, one could construe, based on your last reply that Christ only died for sinners who would be made righteous,

Thats correct, His Death makes them righteous, His free gift to them. The gift is given them, its not offered..

Just like When Adam disobeyed being made a sinner was given to them, not offered..

Well Christ death of obedience is just as effective in making righteous, as Adams death was effective in making sinners..

 

[stovebolts]

sb:



Thats correct, His Death makes them righteous, His free gift to them. The gift is given them, its not offered..

Just like When Adam disobeyed being made a sinner was given to them, not offered..

Well Christ death of obedience is just as effective in making righteous, as Adams death was effective in making sinners..

Well then,
If everyone was made a sinner through Adam except Christ who was without sin, logically it would follow that all would be made righteous through Christ.

But this isn't so. So in your opinion, what is the deciding factor on who is saved, and who isn't? I mean, does God just willy nilly draw straws?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Well then,
If everyone was made a sinner through Adam except Christ who was without sin, logically it would follow that all would be made righteous through Christ.

But this isn't so. So in your opinion, what is the deciding factor on who is saved, and who isn't? I mean, does God just willy nilly draw straws?

All for whom Christ died, His obedience, shall be made righteous rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So if one is not made righteous, then Christ obedience [Death] was not for them, its just that simple..

Christ died for God's Elect, the Sheep. If you wanna know how or why He chose His elect, then you need to ask Him, but as far as I can tell from scripture, it was His own Sovereign will, nothing in the elect themselves made them to differ from the rest of mankind who God did not choose..

 

[Who Says]

John 3:16

Those whom God So Loved in Jn 3:16, could not have been every individual in the world without exception, because if So, then that would mean that He Loved them with an everlasting Love Jer 31:3, it would mean that in Love He predestinated them unto the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ to Himself eph 1:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In Love here can very easily be joined with the first phrase in vs 5, Love here refers to that Love with which God loves His Chosen Ones [ deut 7:6-7] God's Love is grounded in His Choice of A People as we can see from deut 7:6-7, and so if God Loved everyone without exception in Jn 3:16, that is like saying God has Chosen everyone in the World without exception, which we know is not True. In this Love, its such a Love that God's Chosen Ones will experimentally become Holy and without blame before Him, and that cannot be True of those Jesus will yet say Matt 25:


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Remember, the Chosen were Blessed eph 1:

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John meant exactly what he said there. There are singular acts of love and there are relationships of love. There John spoke of the greatest singular act ever done. It is the kind of love we love an enemy with. We may not have a love relationship with them but that does not prevent us from showing acts of love to them despite how they feel about us.

The key to balancing what John 3:16 says with what Ephesians 1:4 says is in properly understanding Ephesians 1:4.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The word "us" is a reference to all in Christ as a group, "hath chosen us in him".

This ought to not be confused with the names that were written in the book of life as those names were not written "before" but "from the foundation of the world". Adam's first offspring being born marked the foundation of this world. Adam sinned "before the foundation of the world" killing all God's sons in him as all were confined to sin and death in Adam and all flesh was consigned to return to the ground. That moment God pronounced that sentence is when God purposed there would be sons to him in Christ.

But as the names did not begin to be written in the book of life until after Adam's first child ("from the foundation of the world") as men were born and God began observing the spirit they showed in their hearts) it is clear that they were not pre-chosen individually by name.

So John 3:16 means exactly what it says, "God so loved this [entire] world [and every individual in it], that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever [of them that would choose to] believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Every mention of the book of life is "from the [point of the] foundation of the world" and not "before" it. Those are two different places in time.

And if you will watch out not to interpret Greek plural pronouns as though they are singular in any of the other texts used to justify the idea of individual predestination you will not find anything to contradict what I have just pointed out.

 

[savedbygrace57]

who says:

John meant exactly what he said there.

Yes He did, Jn 3 16 is merely defining the scope of God's Love, its the World where The Church is which He specifically Loved and died for..eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

All for whom He gave His Life for [which is the same as His death unto obedience] shall be made righteous rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[stovebolts]

All for whom Christ died, His obedience, shall be made righteous rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So if one is not made righteous, then Christ obedience [Death] was not for them, its just that simple..

Christ died for God's Elect, the Sheep. If you wanna know how or why He chose His elect, then you need to ask Him, but as far as I can tell from scripture, it was His own Sovereign will, nothing in the elect themselves made them to differ from the rest of mankind who God did not choose..

Ya see SBG, that's the biggest part that I just don't buy when it comes right down to it. God's not in the business of mysteriously choosing who he's going to save and who's going to suffer in eternal torment.

No, I believe he's been pretty straight forward through His word (The Bible) how he's revealed himself to humanity throughout the ages and it's pretty clear that the wicked are the ones who condemn, and bring wrath upon themselves.

John 1 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

You see, Jesus gave his light to everyone, yet the world did not recognize him. Furthermore, he came to which was his own, and still, they did not receive him.

Why did they not recieve him? The scriptures are clear. YOu see, go a few more verses down from John 3:16 and you find this.

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

People loved darkness more than they loved the light...Why? Because their deeds are evil and they live in fear.

The tone was set way back in the OT with Cain. Do what's right, and you'll be accepted, but be careful, because sin is crouching at your door, and it desires to have you. Thus, we must overcome evil. This tone is carred over to Joshua, "Choose this day who you will serve, for me and my household, we will serve the LORD".

No mystery here SBG...

 

[savedbygrace57]

sb:

No mystery here SBG...

There is no mystery to me that all for whom Christ died, that is His obedience unto death, shall make many righteous.

Its a fact that all Christ died for shall be made righteous, thats the effects of His Death, His blood, dont you believe that ?

 

[stovebolts]

sb:



There is no mystery to me that all for whom Christ died, that is His obedience unto death, shall make many righteous.

Its a fact that all Christ died for shall be made righteous, thats the effects of His Death, His blood, dont you believe that ?

I don't agree with the way you redact scripture, nor do I agree with the way you frame your question.

Scripture states that Many shall be made righteous.... not that All shall be made righteous.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Many, is not all.

Now then, will you address the rest of my post? If you believe my last post was in error, please take the time to show me.

 

[stovebolts]

John 1:9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

Jesus is the True Light, and he gives that light to everyone...

 

[savedbygrace57]

John 1:9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

Jesus is the True Light, and he gives that light to everyone...

When Jesus makes one righteous He gives them true Light..rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Before Jesus makes one righteous which includes giving them light, all men are darkness eph 5:8

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

So the everyone in Jn 1:9 is limited to everyone for whom Christ died..When they are born into the world, they are darkness, Christ gives them True Light when He makes them righteous..

 

[Who Says]

When Jesus makes one righteous He gives them true Light..rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Before Jesus makes one righteous which includes giving them light, all men are darkness eph 5:8

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

So the everyone in Jn 1:9 is limited to everyone for whom Christ died..When they are born into the world, they are darkness, Christ gives them True Light when He makes them righteous..

Or, he gave light for everyone but some chose to not come to it as their works were darkness and they did not want those works to be so revealed?

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him [that is, "through the light"] might believe.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

[savedbygrace57]

who says:

Or, he gave light for everyone but some chose to not come to it

lol, makes no sense, They do not have to come to it, He gave it to them..

Jn 1:


9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 

[Who Says]

who says:



lol, makes no sense, They do not have to come to it, He gave it to them..

Jn 1:


9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Do you really believe anyone had a legitimate excuse for not being able to see that he was that light? Especially the Jews?

John 1:5 "And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

John 1:5 And <G2532> the <G3588> light <G5457> shineth <G5316> in <G1722> <N> <G3588> darkness <G4653>; and <G2532> the <G3588> darkness <G4653> comprehended <G2638> it <G0846> not <G3756>.

comprehended <G2638> katalambano -- pronounced: kat-al-am-ban'-o
from 2596 and 2983; to take eagerly, i.e. seize, possess, etc. (literally or figuratively): KJV -- apprehend, attain, come upon, comprehend, find, obtain, perceive, (over-)take.

You see, words do not always mean what you think they do when you use our modern definitions as your only reference.

And why did they not eagerly seize it? It was because they loved their works of darkness and did not want to let go of them.

John 1:5 "And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not." (ASV)

The Wycliffe New Testament renders it as does the ASV.

 

[savedbygrace57]

who says:

Do you really believe anyone had a legitimate excuse for not being able to see that he was that light? Especially the Jews?

You are going off on a tangent now.The scripture said who lighteth every man coming into the world..

Christ actually did light these men..The word light here means to give saving knowledge to, spiritual knowledge. This is actually speaking about all those He regenrates, give them spiritual life because their life was in Him already as their Head Jn 1:

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The Life of His Church was in Him..And because of that He communicates light to them.. The light of life Jn 8:

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Now who is it that followeth Him ? His Sheep ! jn 10:

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

So the every man in vs 9 is every sheep that cometh into the world..