John 3:16

[Who Says]

who says:



You are going off on a tangent now.The scripture said who lighteth every man coming into the world..

Christ actually did light these men..The word light here means to give saving knowledge to, spiritual knowledge. This is actually speaking about all those He regenrates, give them spiritual life because their life was in Him already as their Head Jn 1:

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The Life of His Church was in Him..And because of that He communicates light to them.. The light of life Jn 8:

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Now who is it that followeth Him ? His Sheep ! jn 10:

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

So the every man in vs 9 is every sheep that cometh into the world..

You are playing a word game. That only means lights their path for them to see so that they have no excuse for stumbling around in the dark.

It is the word he represents and speaks that lights up both the path men walk on and the person's conduct when they pay attention to it.

That is why Jesus said, John 12:48 "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

And why do you call it a tangent when someone disagrees with you?

That is just not right.

 

[stovebolts]

When Jesus makes one righteous He gives them true Light..rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Before Jesus makes one righteous which includes giving them light, all men are darkness eph 5:8

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

So the everyone in Jn 1:9 is limited to everyone for whom Christ died..When they are born into the world, they are darkness, Christ gives them True Light when He makes them righteous..

SBG,
I understand what you're saying and I understand how you are coming to that conclusion.

However, I can't agree with your conclusion based on on major fact. First and foremost, John is telling a story, and we should view the story as a whole, and not as data bits of information to form particular doctrines.

In short, John is more than capable of expressing the Gospel, so there is no need to jump to Paul's writing to support a doctrine that does not exist within John's writings and actually distorts John's intent.

John makes it clear whom the light was given, and he makes it clear that some reject that light because they love their own wickedness, which is John the Baptist's message of repentance.

John is clear in his view, as I have pointed out in John 1 and John 3 and does not agree with your injection of Paul's writings.

BTW, in the Jewish understanding of when Adam was formed, every man has God's light within them, even if it's but a spark. This can be seen even in their alphabet, as it's seen as the yud, and every hebrew character has the yud. John was a Jew and certainly knew this.

The Yud

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 

[Who Says]

BTW, in the Jewish understanding of when Adam was formed, every man has God's light within them, even if it's but a spark. This can be seen even in their alphabet, as it's seen as the yud, and every hebrew character has the yud. John was a Jew and certainly knew this.

The Yud

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Super point :yes

If that does not score a basket with you savedbygrace57 you need a different referee.

Don't get mad, get Glad !!! I'm only joking.

 

[stovebolts]

Super point :yes

I just love kabbala_toons So simple to understand, even a child can get it ;)

 

[Who Says]

I just love kabbala_toons So simple to understand, even a child can get it ;)

That was a fresh perspective for me. I had never come across that before.

Very exhilarating to consider !!!

 

[stovebolts]

Yes it is and it really changed my view on a few things. I remember a few years ago when that song came out, "There's a God shaped hole in all of us"... And often it was explained that only God can fill that hole.

Well, if that Spark is in every person, then it's not about filling a hole, it's about causing the light to shine brighter... and how much more can we shine when we have Jesus?

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Think about it, how does every man come into the world? It's not a trick question with some theological mystery.. He comes into the world through his mothers womb... And all of humanity has this divine spark, it's part of our dna. The question then becomes, what do we do with this spark? Do we give it depth and width till it drips out to others, or do we quash it? Do we enjoy the light, or do we enjoy the darkness?

It is from this perspective that I believe John is writing from. From the top of my head, the one that comes up is the woman at the well... Here she is in front of the one who can set her free, and what does she do? She puts forth an arugment, "You Jews say...." Talk about side stepping the light. This is but one example of light contrasting with darkenss. It's John's theme.

.02

 

[Who Says]

Yes it is and it really changed my view on a few things. I remember a few years ago when that song came out, "There's a God shaped hole in all of us"... And often it was explained that only God can fill that hole.

Well, if that Spark is in every person, then it's not about filling a hole, it's about causing the light to shine brighter... and how much more can we shine when we have Jesus?

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Think about it, how does every man come into the world? It's not a trick question with some theological mystery.. He comes into the world through his mothers womb... And all of humanity has this divine spark, it's part of our dna. The question then becomes, what do we do with this spark? Do we give it depth and width till it drips out to others, or do we quash it? Do we enjoy the light, or do we enjoy the darkness?

It is from this perspective that I believe John is writing from. From the top of my head, the one that comes up is the woman at the well... Here she is in front of the one who can set her free, and what does she do? She puts forth an arugment, "You Jews say...." Talk about side stepping the light. This is but one example of light contrasting with darkenss. It's John's theme.

.02

Wow !!!

Thank you for sharing that insight. That is positively beautiful!!! :yes

 

[ivdavid]

So your also saying that those who are chosen, also have to be converted. What happens if they are not converted?... Were they really chosen?

My question:
If the person was chosen (or called) and falls away from the faith, does this mean they are no longer chosen? Did God himself change his mind about them?

I hope you wouldn't mind my answering them - assuming you only want the question answered and not necessarily only a particular person to do so.

To StoveBolts' question - yes, all the chosen will be converted. If they are not converted, it's indicative of them not being chosen. Conversion, through the process of regeneration, is a work of God and not of man and hence cannot fail its purpose - therefore, the question of the chosen not being converted does not arise.

To cleanfreak's question - the answer is 1John 2:19. All who are chosen are regenerated/converted. All who are regenerated are justified by grace through faith. All who begin believing in Christ here will continue believing in Christ until the end. Therefore, any who stop believing in Christ is indicative of them never having begun believing in Him.

I have answered them only because they have been asked - but I still don't feel this is the right way to go about understanding these doctrines. We must not discuss a third-storey problem without having clarified a second-storey belief. And that can't be done without agreeing on a first-storey belief. So on and so forth until we agree on everything from the very foundation. We simply cannot discuss something on the surface without checking whether we're even talking about the same building.

In that sense, I'd like us to discuss our beliefs on what sin is, what the law is, what grace is, what faith is - before we discuss election and scope of atonement.

 

[ivdavid]

The tone was set way back in the OT with Cain. Do what's right, and you'll be accepted, but be careful, because sin is crouching at your door, and it desires to have you. Thus, we must overcome evil.

This is pretty serious. This is not the law of faith - this is the law of works. "[You] Do good and you'll be accepted", is not of faith nor is it by grace. What does the law of works say -
Lev 18:5 You shall therefore keep my statutes and my rules; if a person does them, he shall live by them: I am the LORD.

The law always points to something we must do in order to be blessed. But God's blessing is by His promise and therefore cannot be dependent on our works by the flesh.

"Thus, we must overcome evil." - That's the whole problem. How do we overcome something that is a law in our flesh? The flesh can not obey a single commandment of God ever - because it has the nature of rebellion in it[sin]. When we realize that not a single act of good can be done by ourselves ever, that is when we throw ourselves upon God for Him to have mercy upon us - and that is when we are revealed the purpose of Christ on the cross - God already knew our depravity and of His lovingkindness has already prepared a hope for us who were before without hope apart from God.

This in itself is our justification and reconciliation and adoption as sons. But God also sanctifies us - He gives us the Holy Spirit so that we need no longer walk by the flesh but by the Spirit. What does that exactly mean - that it is God who works everything good in you after your conversion and not yourself. There is no God 'helping' your flesh to do good. There is no collaboration or cooperation between your flesh and the Spirit - the two are at enmity with each other. Either you in the flesh[your wisdom/ability/goodness/understanding/willpower] work, or the Spirit works in you. One leads to death - the other is life. And God is good to preserve us through faith - faith itself being a gift of God.

I have stated all the above though you might already be well-entrenched in the truth - but nonetheless, this way we will not lose time trying to figure out where a person is coming from.

 

[ivdavid]

BTW, in the Jewish understanding of when Adam was formed, every man has God's light within them, even if it's but a spark... And all of humanity has this divine spark, it's part of our dna.

If you are referring to Romans 1:19-20, I am in total agreement.

God has not kept man from knowing Him but has constantly kept reaching out and commanding/exhorting him to obey His commands.

The question then becomes, what do we do with this spark? Do we give it depth and width till it drips out to others, or do we quash it? Do we enjoy the light, or do we enjoy the darkness?

As you rightly asked, what do we do in response - ALL of us reject such light because we embrace our evil deeds in the darkness. There is none righteous; none who understands; none who seeks after God. This is why God has to regenerate us to even be able to see His glory and love. If He waited for us to return to Him on our own - not a single man will be saved - because not one is good enough or wise enough in the flesh to choose God.

Or, he gave light for everyone but some chose to not come to it as their works were darkness and they did not want those works to be so revealed?

This is completely true. I only want to clarify what you mean by the word in bold.

Are you implying that "some others" chose to come to Christ because they had some works of their own which were good and which they didn't fear being revealed? Nobody has done good in the flesh for them to come to the light - they come to the light only when God has worked good works in them by His power, so that God may be glorified and not the flesh which profits nothing.

 

[stovebolts]

The tone was set way back in the OT with Cain. Do what's right, and you'll be accepted, but be careful, because sin is crouching at your door, and it desires to have you. Thus, we must overcome evil.

This is pretty serious. This is not the law of faith - this is the law of works. "[You] Do good and you'll be accepted", is not of faith nor is it by grace. What does the law of works say -
Lev 18:5 You shall therefore keep my statutes and my rules; if a person does them, he shall live by them: I am the LORD.

The law always points to something we must do in order to be blessed. But God's blessing is by His promise and therefore cannot be dependent on our works by the flesh.

I think we're talking down two different theological lines. When I think of the law pointing to anything, I believe it first points to Christ and yes, I already know that we will view the words of Jesus differently.

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Now, lets look at Genesis 4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.â€

From a practical standpoint, this statement is as true today as it was when God spoke it to Cain and you know what? One doesn't even have to be a Christian to affirm this truth...

To be sure, we are faced with choices and decisions every day of our lives and the choices and decisions we make today can potentially have long term strings attached to them.

You say that this comes from the law of works, and not by faith. But I would argue that this could fall into either catagory depending on the individual. Let me explain.

Lets use a simple scenarios to drive the point.
Scenario 1. A man sees a person in need of food and he feeds him. For the man being fed, he doesn't care why somebody helped him, he just cares, and hopefully is thankful that he was fed. But what I want to look at is the person who fed the hungry man.

The Law of Works: I will feed this man because it will affirm how good of a person I am and I can lord it over those who don't do good works. By doing this good deed, God will see how good I am and I will find favor in his eyes.

You see, the person above does the good work because he will use it as leverage to his advantage. In summary, this is how the law of works functions.

The Law of Faith: Out of compassion for another in need, I give of my abundance. Not that I expect anything in return or that it serves any advantage for me, but because a need was made known and out of compassion a gift was presented.

It's about the heart. It's always been about the heart.

Deuteronomy 30 11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?†13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?†14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

And
Jeremiah 31:33 “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts.


I will be their God, and they will be my people.

"Thus, we must overcome evil." - That's the whole problem. How do we overcome something that is a law in our flesh? The flesh can not obey a single commandment of God ever - because it has the nature of rebellion in it[sin]. When we realize that not a single act of good can be done by ourselves ever, that is when we throw ourselves upon God for Him to have mercy upon us - and that is when we are revealed the purpose of Christ on the cross - God already knew our depravity and of His lovingkindness has already prepared a hope for us who were before without hope apart from God.

Sorry, but I don't buy into the docrine of total depravity either...
When God finished creating everything he said, "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good." Genesis 1:31

Furthermore, everyone is capable of doing good, Christian or not because when God breathed into Adam, he ignighted a spark and it's been passed down to every human being on earth throughout all the ages. This is why Solomon can say with certainty,

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

What makes humanity so radically different than all other creatures on earth is the intamacy God has with us. Unlike the rest of creation who were spoken into existance, humanity was breathed into by our creator. (Genesis 2:7) and it is this breath, this Spirit of man that can be considered the spark in each and every one of us.

Now then, we have not addressed our sinful nature and I affirm the sinful nature. Paul even writes to us Christians that we are still waging that battle and he gives us courage and strength to help us overcome our sinful nature through many of the Pauline writings. You see, just because we are Christians, doesn't mean that we don't have struggles...

This in itself is our justification and reconciliation and adoption as sons. But God also sanctifies us - He gives us the Holy Spirit so that we need no longer walk by the flesh but by the Spirit. What does that exactly mean - that it is God who works everything good in you after your conversion and not yourself. There is no God 'helping' your flesh to do good. There is no collaboration or cooperation between your flesh and the Spirit - the two are at enmity with each other. Either you in the flesh[your wisdom/ability/goodness/understanding/willpower] work, or the Spirit works in you. One leads to death - the other is life. And God is good to preserve us through faith - faith itself being a gift of God.

I have stated all the above though you might already be well-entrenched in the truth - but nonetheless, this way we will not lose time trying to figure out where a person is coming from.

Though we will disagree on many points of theological substance, I would hope that we would agree that Jesus is Lord and Savior and that he is the Son of God.

I would also hope that we would agree that as Christians, we are called out of a life of sin, and that we can't use grace as a liscnce to continue in sin "That grace may abound". (Law of works mentality)

Additionally, as Christians we continue to have struggles in our walk with the Lord, and that it is the Holy Spirit that has been provided as a comforter who guides us to do the right things for the right reasons.

 

[ivdavid]

Though we will disagree on many points of theological substance,......

Actually not that many..... just this one -

everyone is capable of doing good, Christian or not...

This seems to be a fundamental doctrine on which most other beliefs rest, or are built - I only urge you to scripturally validate this for yourself - the Bible unambiguously denies this. I do not say this just as a personal manner of interpretation - I say it as the sober truth. See Rom 3,7,8.

I mean, explore both sides of interpretation - why are you believing this and why is another believing the opposite? Do not settle with superficial answers like - "because the Bible says so" - both sides are interpreting the same verses differently. So what's dictating that disposition or inclination - what is that underlying intent that is driving each one to interpret Scripture this way or that? What filters are they applying and are these Scriptural? What is each one trying to defend by holding on to a particular view? What really is at stake?

Cross-check with someone of the differing belief to see if you've understood their reasons perfectly. Then meditate on the truth before God - If you can answer all these satisfactorily to yourself, then your belief can be deemed absolutely true.

 

[stovebolts]

ivdavid,

If you would like to put doctrines aside and study scripture, then I would be more than pleased to study the chapters in Romans that you've suggested.

I am quite sure that we would both learn much from each other.

BTW, I study best by staying within a particular book first, while pulling in OT passages that the writer may be referring to and if need be, a quick study on those passages.

With this foundation laid, I then find it beneficial to bring in similar passages and honestly, I really don't like to debate, but I do enjoy a good healthy discussion.

We can set up a one on one study if you would like.

Grace and Peace.

 

[Who Says]

[Originally Posted by Who Says
“Or, he gave light for everyone but some chose to not come to it as their works were darkness and they did not want those works to be so revealed?”]

This is completely true. I only want to clarify what you mean by the word in bold.

Are you implying that "some others" chose to come to Christ because they had some works of their own which were good and which they didn't fear being revealed? Nobody has done good in the flesh for them to come to the light - they come to the light only when God has worked good works in them by His power, so that God may be glorified and not the flesh which profits nothing.

No, I mean only that they are more in love with their own works than they are concerned with learning to do God's works as a new creation in Christ. (Ephesians 2:10)

John 5:38-40 "And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he sent, him ye believe not.
Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; and ye will not come to me, that ye may have life."

Or, he gave light for everyone but some chose to not come to it as their works were darkness and they did not want those works to be so revealed?

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him [that is, "through the light"] might believe.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

I am going to pick on you just a bit ivdavid and savedbygrace57:

ivDavid, you shift the blame onto God by this unscriptural statement which reflects a misunderstanding of certain of Jesus' words concerning the Father revealing truths to us as he did Peter: "they come to the light only when God has worked good works in them by His power"

Go back to pondering ivDavid, that seems on the surface tobe logical perhaps but it is not Biblical truth. Provide the scriptures you believe to support that?


Now your turn savedbygrace57: You had told me:

lol, makes no sense, They do not have to come to it, He gave it to them..

Jn 1:


9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Now what do you have to say for yourself?

Did not consider it being a two way street, hey?

And what you are preaching undermines this: Isaiah 55:6-7 "Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."


And it undermines this: Acts 17:26-28 "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."