John Calvin's Heretical Teaching

[SolaScriptura]

Non sequitur.

Can't stand the Truth!

 

[atpollard]

UNBIBLICAL theological RUBBISH

That's a pretty harsh thing to say about Malachi!

I admit, he's not my favorite prophet either ... but he is Scripture!
(I just quoted Malachi 1 verbatim).

Here are MY words from the post:

Talk to me of God's deep love of Esau and the Edomites.​

A love demonstrated in:​

- said God​

- said Edom​

God's WORD proves you wrong.​

Which of those is even "Theological"?
So, you have a problem with SCRIPTURE (which is a YOU problem).

 

[SolaScriptura]

That's a pretty harsh thing to say about Malachi!

I admit, he's not my favorite prophet either ... but he is Scripture!
(I just quoted Malachi 1 verbatim).

Here are MY words from the post:

Talk to me of God's deep love of Esau and the Edomites.​

A love demonstrated in:​

- said God​

- said Edom​

God's WORD proves you wrong.​

Which of those is even "Theological"?
So, you have a problem with SCRIPTURE (which is a YOU problem).

I am referring to your RUBBISH

 

[atpollard]

Can't stand the Truth!

I don't know ... I am still waiting to hear some TRUTH from you.
(I am BORED by the empty rhetoric.)

 

[atpollard]

I am referring to your RUBBISH

Which WORD?

Talk to me of God's deep love of Esau and the Edomites.​

A love demonstrated in:​

- said God​

- said Edom​

God's WORD proves you wrong.​

 

[atpollard]

I am referring to your RUBBISH

What about what Malachi said?

Malachi 1:1-5 [NASB]

The pronouncement of the word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi:​

“I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was Esau not Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and given his inheritance to the jackals of the wilderness.” Though Edom says, “We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins”; this is what the LORD of armies says: “They may build, but I will tear down; and people will call them the territory of wickedness, and the people with whom the LORD is indignant forever.” And your eyes will see this, and you will say, “The LORD be exalted beyond the border of Israel!”​

• "but I have hated Esau"
• "made his mountains a desolation"
• "given his inheritance to the jackals"
• "We have been beaten down"
• "we will return and build up the ruins"... "They may build, but I will tear down"
• "people will call them the territory of wickedness"
• "the people with whom the LORD is indignant forever.”

 

[SolaScriptura]

What about what Malachi said?

Malachi 1:1-5 [NASB]

The pronouncement of the word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi:​

“I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was Esau not Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and given his inheritance to the jackals of the wilderness.” Though Edom says, “We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins”; this is what the LORD of armies says: “They may build, but I will tear down; and people will call them the territory of wickedness, and the people with whom the LORD is indignant forever.” And your eyes will see this, and you will say, “The LORD be exalted beyond the border of Israel!”​

• "but I have hated Esau"
• "made his mountains a desolation"
• "given his inheritance to the jackals"
• "We have been beaten down"
• "we will return and build up the ruins"... "They may build, but I will tear down"
• "people will call them the territory of wickedness"
• "the people with whom the LORD is indignant forever.”

John 3.16 answers this but you are not interested because it is against your theology!

 

[atpollard]

John 3.16 answers this but you are not interested because it is against your theology!

So you have nothing to actually say about Malachi.
Then I guess there is nothing to be gained by wasting any more time listening to you.

 

[SolaScriptura]

So you have nothing to actually say about Malachi.
Then I guess there is nothing to be gained by wasting any more time listening to you.

Malachi is Old Testament John is New

 

[brightfame52]

Malachi is Old Testament John is New

Romans 9 is New as well, nothing changed, God hated Esau, in fact He hated him before he was even born to have done any good or evil Rom 9:11-13

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Those hated by God exist only to serve in the saving purpose of God for His Beloved Elect

 

[journeymanisnothing]

What about what Malachi said?

Malachi 1:1-5 [NASB]

The pronouncement of the word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi:​

“I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have You loved us?” “Was Esau not Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and given his inheritance to the jackals of the wilderness.” Though Edom says, “We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins”; this is what the LORD of armies says: “They may build, but I will tear down; and people will call them the territory of wickedness, and the people with whom the LORD is indignant forever.” And your eyes will see this, and you will say, “The LORD be exalted beyond the border of Israel!”​

• "but I have hated Esau"
• "made his mountains a desolation"
• "given his inheritance to the jackals"
• "We have been beaten down"
• "we will return and build up the ruins"... "They may build, but I will tear down"
• "people will call them the territory of wickedness"
• "the people with whom the LORD is indignant forever.”

Hello atpollard.
Malachi is referring to "Esau" as a people without faith in Him. It's no different from God referring to "Israel" as a people by faith in Him.
He doesn't mean Esau the man could never repent. He means people who sorrow over their sin but never truly repent,

lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you.....as Esau who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. Heb. 12:15-17

Esau broke down and wept.....From that time on, Esau hated Jacob because their father had given Jacob the blessing. And Esau began to scheme: “I will soon be mourning my father’s death. Then I will kill my brother, Jacob.” Gen.27:38,41 NLT

Afterward,

Jacob went on ahead. As he approached his brother, he bowed to the ground seven times before him. Then Esau ran to meet him and embraced him, threw his arms around his neck, and kissed him. And they both wept. Gen.33:3-4 NLT

I believe Esau the man repented and God blessed him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Is an alcoholic free to be sober, or is he merely free to choose to drink?

Many alcoholics have chosen to free themselves from drinking.
However, I know what you mean.

Biblically, I must be free to choose between good and evil.
Free will biblically just means that I have a choice in moral matters.
I could post 10 verses and it wouldn't do any good.
Want to try one?

Luke 9:23-26
23And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
24“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. 25“For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?
26“For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
2 Points:
1. Verse 23 IF ANYONE WISHES.....that denotes free will.
Jesus is saying we must wish to follow Him. Key word: IF
ANYONE
WISH
IF


2. Is God just? I believe we can agree on this.
Then why would Jesus tell disciples that HE will be ashamed of them, IF they are ashamed of Him?
This would mean that Jesus was unaware of the fact that it's God that would ordain for the person to be ashamed of Jesus.....

Is Jesus God or not?
Does Jesus know the rules or not? (predestinating, ordaining, decreeing).

Paul says we are slaves to sin. So our will is not 100% free of all external influences. Thus we are free to do whatever we want … and we WANT to sin (and hide from God because of our sin). So we (all people) exercise our natural (fallen, slave to sin) will and we do what we want … we sin and we run from God.

Correct. I agree.
But Paul also states sin Romans 6:16 that we PRESENT OURSELVES to the one we will obey.
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Verse 19 confirms the above.

Also, the sin nature makes us TEND toward sin.
Many that are lost still are able to do good deeds.
And we are ABLE to seek after God.
Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness,

Hebrews 11:6
... whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists...
Matthew 7:7-8
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
Why would God ask us to do something He knows is impossible?

Thus the need for God to DRAW men to Christ, to remove their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh, to make them alive while they were still dead in sin [none of these are “Calvinist phrases”, God said all of them in His Word]. As Philippians 2:13 so eloquently puts it … “it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for His good pleasure.”

I agree that God draws men...in different ways.
And those that listen and say Yes, the Father gives to the Son for salvation,
and to the Holy Spirit for guidance.
Psalm 145:18
The Lord is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth.
John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

 

[GodsGrace]

Where did I say that God doesnt love the unregenerate ?

You've stated this many times BF.
You say that God only loves the saved.
Only His sons.

You just posted that He hates Esau.
And all other unregenerated persons.
You've been stating this since coming on this forum.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Free will biblically just means that I have a choice in moral matters.

How can you have studied theology so long and not know the definition of Free Will especially in the light that it is at the root of your theology ... *sigh*

To have a "will" is to have a choice (morals matter or non moral matters), but that is NOT the definition of FREE WILL. The FREE part in the term FREE WILL is what you never define. Google it so you have a foundation for what you are talking about.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/free-will free will, in philosophy and science, the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe. I underlined the FREE part of the definition for you.

https://www.theopedia.com/free-wi

ll free will is the "ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition I underlined the FREE part of the definition for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will Free will is the notional capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded. I underlined the FREE part of the definition for you.

If you are going to talk about a subject so often, you should know what you are talking about; you should know the definition of the words or terms you refer to. There are are least two other definitions of FREE WILL, but I am confident you don't mean to use those definitions.

 

[brightfame52]

You've stated this many times BF.
You say that God only loves the saved.
Only His sons.

You just posted that He hates Esau.
And all other unregenerated persons.
You've been stating this since coming on this forum.

Im going to ask you one more time to please show where I said God hates all the unregenerate ? If you cant show that specifically please apologize.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Romans 9 is New as well, nothing changed, God hated Esau, in fact He hated him before he was even born to have done any good or evil Rom 9:11-13

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Those hated by God exist only to serve in the saving purpose of God for His Beloved Elect

I get this feeling, that it is YOU that HATES those who are not "elect"!, and try to use God to justify your own HATRED!

I have shown from Greek authorities, who have said very clearly, that the Greek translated as "hate" in Romans, when contrasted with "love", means to LOVE LESS, not to PREFER. and yet you bang on about this complete RUBBISH!!!

 

[brightfame52]

I get this feeling, that it is YOU that HATES those who are not "elect"!, and try to use God to justify your own HATRED!

I have shown from Greek authorities, who have said very clearly, that the Greek translated as "hate" in Romans, when contrasted with "love", means to LOVE LESS, not to PREFER. and yet you bang on about this complete RUBBISH!!!

You reject whats plainly set forth in the word of God. Does God Love the person Esau ? Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[SolaScriptura]

You reject whats plainly set forth in the word of God. Does God Love the person Esau ? Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

you are now on ignore, as you need help!

 

[GodsGrace]

How can you have studied theology so long and not know the definition of Free Will especially in the light that it is at the root of your theology ... *sigh*

To have a "will" is to have a choice (morals matter or non moral matters), but that is NOT the definition of FREE WILL. The FREE part in the term FREE WILL is what you never define. Google it so you have a foundation for what you are talking about.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/free-will free will, in philosophy and science, the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe. I underlined the FREE part of the definition for you.

https://www.theopedia.com/free-wi

ll free will is the "ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition I underlined the FREE part of the definition for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will Free will is the notional capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded. I underlined the FREE part of the definition for you.

If you are going to talk about a subject so often, you should know what you are talking about; you should know the definition of the words or terms you refer to. There are are least two other definitions of FREE WILL, but I am confident you don't mean to use those definitions.

FF,
I'm not here to discuss philosophical free will.
You could listen to Wm. Craig for that.

Thanks, but I don't believe I'll google anything.
It's very nice of you, however, to be concerned for my knowledge of words.

Now, why is it that I know what compatibilism is and you don't know what libertarianism is??

Need some links??

 

[atpollard]

Many alcoholics have chosen to free themselves from drinking.

FYI, the 12 steps of AA:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

So, actually, alcoholics are like other sinners … we turn to GOD to change us, not our own WILL.