John Calvin's Heretical Teaching

[GodsGrace]

I read some of what you wrote and came to the conclusion that I was wasting my time. Unsubstantiated and confusing statements about this and that IMO. I'm surprised atpollard has continued the discussion as long as he did.

atpollard understands what words mean and is interested in having serious conversation.
We're here to exchange ideas, not to degrade one another.

 

[atpollard]

I think we agree.

I must say however, that some atheists also could quit smoking or drinking.
Surely our will is involved in some way?
I just think Christians have it easier because of the Holy Spirit.

I am reminded of a quote by Mark Twain …

“Giving up smoking is the easiest thing in the world. I know because I've done it thousands of times.”​

[human will - in bondage to a fallen nature - at its best]

 

[atpollard]

Jesus Christ says that He Died for Judas!

Verse please!

(or is this another private revelation to only YOU … like the REAL MEANING of John 3:16?)
[John 10:14-15] [John 6:70]

 

[GodsGrace]

I am reminded of a quote by Mark Twain …

“Giving up smoking is the easiest thing in the world. I know because I've done it thousands of times.”​

[human will - in bondage to a fallen nature - at its best]

Cute.

My son-in-law gave up smoking.
Many years ago.

A girlfriend of mine also gave up smoking but after she woke up one morning and couldn't stop coughing.
In her case, the fear caused it.

My son-in-law really did use just plain will-power.

 

[JLB]

This isnt about what man does, this is about God hated some people, they were excluded from His Love Rom 9:13

As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
Romans 9:13

Do you hate your father and mother?

Do you hate your brother?

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26


The point being “hate” means prefer one over another in the course of choosing for His purpose, not choosing for salvation.

The purpose being the bloodline lineage of the Messiah.

The context of Romans 9 is about election according to purpose not election for salvation.

You have completely taken the verse out of it’s context to try and make it fit your narrative.


For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:3-5

• of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came

He skillfully shows that specific ones were chosen to be the bloodline through which Christ came.


God chose Jacob over Esau.


Just as we are to choose following Christ over our family, even if our father or mother were to try and persuade us not to, which many Jewish did in the first century.

This is what the word “hate” means in these verses.


God is love.

God is not hate.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


God loves even His enemies, and He instructs us to do the same.


“You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:43-48



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Verse please!

(or is this another private revelation to only YOU … like the REAL MEANING of John 3:16?)
[John 10:14-15] [John 6:70]

Just a comment - saw this as I was leaving here.

John 3:16 (I didn't read how SS understands it) is understood by all Christianity to mean that God so loved EVERYONE He created that He gave EVERYONE the opportunity to be saved IF they wanted to be.
How?
By believing in His Son, whom God gave to free us from the reign of satan.
Adam sold us to satan,
Jesus bought us back...redeemed us.

And not for us only, but for the whole world.
1 John 2:2

The reformed are the only denomination that believes that John 3:16 is a descriptive verse...explaining who is already saved....THOSE THAT BELIEVE.

All other Christians believe it's prescriptive.....THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES.....

The reformed understanding of John 3:16 is a slap in the face to God Who would want that EVERYONE be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4

So is God too impotent to get what He wants?
NO!

God gifted us with free will and it's up to each one of us to decide whether or not we want to be saved by using God's prescription for salvation.

Theology destroys Limited Atonement
and
Compatibilist free will.

 

[GodsGrace]

This isnt about what man does, this is about God hated some people, they were excluded from His Love Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Ps 5:5
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Now if you believe God loved these individuals, you flat out oppose scripture.

BF,
But you said you never said God hates the unregenerated !

You even wanted me to apologize.
You never replied to my post to you BTW.

And AGAIN, above you state that God hated some people.

 

[brightfame52]

Jacob was a liar , a deceiver , a thief and a supplanter .
If you are clueless as to why God Loved Jacob, a worker of iniquity , which you say should NOT be the case , but yet is the case,
Then you are equally clueless as to why God hated Esau ?

Your spiritual discernment being threadbare at best .

Jacob God Loved and Esau God hated, and you deny it, you are a scripture denier.

 

[atpollard]

My son-in-law really did use just plain will-power.

Can we say with certainty that God did not place a finger on the scale?
Especially if someone had the NERVE to upset our perfect experiment by contaminating our sample by PRAYING FOR HIM!

So much that I was once SURE was one thing, later turned out to be something else when I learned information that I didn’t have back then. Now I am only CERTAIN about what GOD says … His track record is better than mine. Since you like Mark Twain quotes:

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”

 

[brightfame52]

As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
Romans 9:13

Do you hate your father and mother?

Do you hate your brother?

“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26


The point being “hate” means prefer one over another in the course of choosing for His purpose, not choosing for salvation.

The purpose being the bloodline lineage of the Messiah.

The context of Romans 9 is about election according to purpose not election for salvation.

You have completely taken the verse out of it’s context to try and make it fit your narrative.


For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:3-5

• of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came

He skillfully shows that specific ones were chosen to be the bloodline through which Christ came.


God chose Jacob over Esau.


Just as we are to choose following Christ over our family, even if our father or mother were to try and persuade us not to, which many Jewish did in the first century.

This is what the word “hate” means in these verses.


God is love.

God is not hate.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


God loves even His enemies, and He instructs us to do the same.


“You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:43-48



JLB

Did God Love Jacob and hate Esau ? Lets see how you value scripture ? Rom 9:13

 

[GodsGrace]

Jacob God Loved and Esau God hated, and you deny it, you are a scripture denier.

Did you ever study exegesis or hermeneutics?

Well, neither did I.
But at least I know about it, although limited, and it's understood that all verses must be taken
1. in context.
2. as the wording was meant AT THE TIME IT WAS WRITTEN.
3. the cultural meaning.

Probably more.
Any word or verse must take all of the above into consideration.

Wonder what future generations will understand when they find a writing of OURS
and it says: Give me a boot.

Maybe that we need a shoe?

 

[brightfame52]

BF,
But you said you never said God hates the unregenerated !

You even wanted me to apologize.
You never replied to my post to you BTW.

And AGAIN, above you state that God hated some people.

Im going to ask you once more to show us where I stated God hates all the unregenerate ? If you dont show me, please apologize or stop posting in this forum. If you show that direct quote, I will apologize to you publicly.

 

[JLB]

Did God Love Jacob and hate Esau ? Let’s o you hate see how you value scripture ? Rom 9:13

Do you hate your parents?


Let’s see how you value scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

Can we say with certainty that God did not place a finger on the scale?
Especially if someone had the NERVE to upset our perfect experiment by contaminating our sample by PRAYING FOR HIM!

So much that I was once SURE was one thing, later turned out to be something else when I learned information that I didn’t have back then. Now I am only CERTAIN about what GOD says … His track record is better than mine. Since you like Mark Twain quotes:

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”

Yes A.
I know that one too.

BTW, I was referring to many years ago.
I know about looking back.
And my son-in-law was about 30 when he stopped smoking.

 

[JLB]

Im going to ask you once more to show us where I stated God hates all the unregenerate ? If you dont show me, please apologize or stop posting in this forum. If you show that direct quote, I will apologize to you publicly.

Does God hate the world (unregenerate) or love them?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

 

[brightfame52]

Do you hate your parents?


Let’s see how you value scripture.

This isnt about what men hate. This is about who God hates. Does God hate Esau according to scripture Rom 9:13 yes or no ?

 

[JLB]

Did God Love Jacob and hate Esau ? Lets see how you value scripture ? Rom 9:13

God preferred Jacob over Esau for the lineage of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Im going to ask you once more to show us where I stated God hates all the unregenerate ? If you dont show me, please apologize or stop posting in this forum. If you show that direct quote, I will apologize to you publicly.

I don't know BF.
Maybe there's a misunderstanding??

Please answer:

DOES GOD LOVE THE WHOLE WORLD, MEANING EVERYONE IN IT,
OR DOES HE JUST LOVE THE PERSONS HE CHOSE FOR SALVATION?

I'd appreciate it.

 

[JLB]

This isnt about what men hate. This is about who God hates. Does God hate Esau according to scripture Rom 9:13 yes or no ?

It’s a question of understanding what hate means in the context of the passage.

 

[brightfame52]

God preferred Jacob over Esau for the lineage of Christ.

Did God Love Jacob and hate Esau ? Lets see how you value scripture ? Rom 9:13