John Calvin's Heretical Teaching

[JJonas]

If they are still carnal, they have neither repented of sin nor been reborn of God's seed.
Christians walk after, and in the Spirit, not the "flesh".

1 Cor. 3:
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Here the Bible speaks about carnal christians walking as natural men. By calling them “babes in Christ”, the Bible makes it unmistakably clear that they are “reborn of God's seed”!

an't you see the connection between the resurrection of Christ and our inclusion in that resurrection ?
Rom 6 says we are immersed into Christ, and into His death and burial by our baptism into Him.
Having done those two things, we are also raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
With out His resurrection, we would have remained buried with Him.
With it, we become new creatures.

You are right! However it is also written:

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof (Rom 6:12). It requires intentional action to walk as a christian.

And it is also written: Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. (Col 3:5)

So on one side it is written: we died with Christ (Rom 6:8), as something already done. On the other side it is also written: put to death your members, as something to be done! Both are the 2 sides of the same coin.

Yeah, they both have the word "baptize" in them.

There are more similarities than that: Christ's death was His baptism (Luke 12:50). Compared to: We are baptized in his death (Rom 6:3-4).

Do you see? They are both about Christ's death.

As long as it has allowed you to forego sinning, fine.
If it hasn't, it is time to look for other means and ways to attain sanctity.

Do you believe in sinless perfection as something attainable in our time on the earth?

 

[brightfame52]

God wants all men to be saved. (1 Tim 2:4)
Calvin doesn't.
I will have faith in God instead of in Calvin.

Apostacy is when one conditions salvation on the acts of men, and deny Christ. Just like you deny Christ has cleansed them He died for from all their sins, and sat down after doing so Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

You say that's not sufficient, man must do something to make it finished ! That denies the Glory of Christ !

 

[Hopeful 2]

1 Cor. 3:
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Here the Bible speaks about carnal christians walking as natural men. By calling them “babes in Christ”, the Bible makes it unmistakably clear that they are “reborn of God's seed”!

You really don't see that as a degradation ?

You are right!

OK.

However it is also written:
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof (Rom 6:12). It requires intentional action to walk as a christian.

It also requires intent to commit sin.
The regenerated have a divine nature, whereby they can resist every temptation.

And it is also written: Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. (Col 3:5)

I read "mortify", (KJV), as "keep dead".

So on one side it is written: we died with Christ (Rom 6:8), as something already done. On the other side it is also written: put to death your members, as something to be done! Both are the 2 sides of the same coin.

Keep dead.
As you do recognize "it" (our death) has already occurred, why do it again ?

There are more similarities than that: Christ's death was His baptism (Luke 12:50). Compared to: We are baptized in his death (Rom 6:3-4).
Do you see? They are both about Christ's death.

They are both about an "immersion" into an event.
One wherein Jesus was tortures and killed, and the other about our taking part/immersion into Jesus' death and burial.

Do you believe in sinless perfection as something attainable in our time on the earth?

Sinless perfection is the result of one's repentance from sin.
The repentant are by definition "sinless".

 

[Hopeful 2]

Apostacy is when one conditions salvation on the acts of men, and deny Christ.

I find it interesting that you see obedience to Christ as apostasy or in any way lessening what Jesus did for our salvation.

Just like you deny Christ has cleansed them He died for from all their sins, and sat down after doing so Heb 1:

Nobody can deny that, but some misread it in an effort to deny that Christ provided His blood for all mankind.
By saying it was only for those who will be saved on the day of judgement, it makes God liable for all who will be damned.
That is apostasy.

You say that's not sufficient, man must do something to make it finished ! That denies the Glory of Christ !

It glorifies God for giving man the choice of loving Him or hating Him.
I rejoice in the choice.
You have a doctrine of forced compliance.
Sort of like Islam...or communism.
That is apostasy.

 

[brightfame52]

I find it interesting that you see obedience to Christ as apostasy or in any way lessening what Jesus did for our salvation.

Nobody can deny that, but some misread it in an effort to deny that Christ provided His blood for all mankind.
By saying it was only for those who will be saved on the day of judgement, it makes God liable for all who will be damned.
That is apostasy.

It glorifies God for giving man the choice of loving Him or hating Him.
I rejoice in the choice.
You have a doctrine of forced compliance.
Sort of like Islam...or communism.
That is apostasy.

Apostacy is when one conditions salvation on the acts of men, and deny Christ.

Its you who lessens what Christ did, I say with scripture that He with His Own Blood has purified from sin those He died for and sat down at the right hand of God Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

You on the other hand deny this and say man must be baptized to be purified from their sins, you deny Christs Obedience !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Apostacy is when one conditions salvation on the acts of men, and deny Christ.

It is you making that declaration.
Crediting any work of God to the devil is an apostacy
Every accommodation for sin using the bible is apostacy.

Its you who lessens what Christ did, I say with scripture that He with His Own Blood has purified from sin those He died for and sat down at the right hand of God Heb 1:3

I agree completely, but you just drop the subject of salvation at the opening of the door, without going through it.
Just because you have the car key doesn't mean you can drive to Alabama.

You on the other hand deny this and say man must be baptized to be purified from their sins, you deny Christs Obedience !

It was a commandment of the Lord Jesus Christ, to baptize, (Matt 28:19), and also of Peter. (Acts 2:38)
And Ananias. (Acts 22:16)

I will continue to have faith in the words of Jesus Christ, and Paul.
You can continue to have faith in the words of Calvin.
Either way, we must hold fast to that faith until the day of judgement.

 

[brightfame52]

It is you making that declaration.
Crediting any work of God to the devil is an apostacy
Every accommodation for sin using the bible is apostacy.

I agree completely, but you just drop the subject of salvation at the opening of the door, without going through it.
Just because you have the car key doesn't mean you can drive to Alabama.

It was a commandment of the Lord Jesus Christ, to baptize, (Matt 28:19), and also of Peter. (Acts 2:38)
And Ananias. (Acts 22:16)

I will continue to have faith in the words of Jesus Christ, and Paul.
You can continue to have faith in the words of Calvin.
Either way, we must hold fast to that faith until the day of judgement.

Apostacy is when one conditions salvation on the acts of men, and deny Christ.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Apostacy is when one conditions salvation on the acts of men, and deny Christ.

Don't you condition your salvation on abiding by Calvin's doctrines ?
As you do, it appears you consider it an apostasy.
I agree with that assessment.

 

[brightfame52]

Don't you condition your salvation on abiding by Calvin's doctrines ?
As you do, it appears you consider it an apostasy.
I agree with that assessment.

Apostacy is when one conditions salvation on the acts of men, and deny Christ.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Apostacy is when one conditions salvation on the acts of men, and deny Christ.

That is, indeed, one apostacy.
But so is faith in any man who says obedience to God, or to His Son, in unnecessary for salvation.

 

[JJonas]

You really don't see that as a degradation ?

What do you mean exactly? That the christians from Corinth were spiritual christians before and then degraded to being carnal? I don't see any clue in the text about a better former condition of the christians of Corinth, therefore we shouldn't make any speculations! On the contrary, the expression “babes in Christ” does not suggest a degradation but a lack of progress in the spiritual life of the christians of Corinth.

I read "mortify", (KJV), as "keep dead".

I have never heard that “mortify” means “keep dead”. Can you show evidence that support your claim? This is what I have found: In the first sense, that is, speaking of physical realities, “mortify” means to put to death (https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/mortify)

Do you believe on the infallibility of the KJV? If not, then we should agree that what's makes authority here is the meaning of the greek word used, shouldn't we? From blueletterbible:

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

I. to make dead, to put to death, slay

II. worn out

A of an impotent old man

III. to deprive of power, destroy the strength of

The concordance in my Bible also says that it means to put to death and that in Col 3.5 the verbe is in active form, wo that it means in this context to renounce the sinful acts that are normal in the world and to let no room for fleshly lusts.

As you do recognize "it" (our death) has already occurred, why do it again ?

The Bible is full of such mysteries, where at some places it seems to mean one thing and at other places, it seems to mean the opposite. It doesn't mean that the Bible contradicts itself, but that we face something that we cannot understand at first sight.

They are both about an "immersion" into an event.
One wherein Jesus was tortures and killed, and the other about our taking part/immersion into Jesus' death and burial.

I agree

Sinless perfection is the result of one's repentance from sin.
The repentant are by definition "sinless".

I am not sure if I understand you correctly. Let's say that you used to lie a lot before you believed. Then you got convinced from the Holy Spirit that you are liar (John 16:8). At this point, you may not be aware of every sins that you committed, but that sin of “lying” was made clear to you from the Holy Spirit and that you were therefore a lost sinner. Then, you repented from your old life and turned to Christ. Which of the following is true in your eyes?

A) You repented from lying, so that you won't lie anymore afterwards. Not every once in any future occasion. You may commit other sins that you are not yet aware (and therefore not yet repented of). But as soon as you are made aware of a sin, you repent from it and stop doing it.
B) You repented from every sins, even from sins that you were not aware at the time of your conversion. Then you stop sinning altogether. Not even once will you entertain an evil though, say an evil word or do an evil act! No even once will you sin by ignorance!
C) Something else?

 

[JJonas]

That is, indeed, one apostacy.

Doesn't mean apostasy falling away from faith? That means: if someone never had once the right faith, then he can't apostasy, can he?

He was and stays lost; he needs to hear the Gospel so that he can find salvation in Christ!

 

[Hopeful 2]

What do you mean exactly? That the christians from Corinth were spiritual christians before and then degraded to being carnal? I don't see any clue in the text about a better former condition of the christians of Corinth, therefore we shouldn't make any speculations! On the contrary, the expression “babes in Christ” does not suggest a degradation but a lack of progress in the spiritual life of the christians of Corinth.

It was a slap in the face for the posers.
Professing Christianity, they still served the devil.

I have never heard that “mortify” means “keep dead”. Can you show evidence that support your claim? This is what I have found: In the first sense, that is, speaking of physical realities, “mortify” means to put to death (https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/mortify)

As all sinful things are of the "flesh", (Gal 5:19-21), and the "flesh" has been destroyed at its "immersion" into Christ and into His death an burial, (Rom 6:6, Ga 5:24), we can do nothing to the "flesh" but keep it destroyed.

Do you believe on the infallibility of the KJV? If not, then we should agree that what's makes authority here is the meaning of the greek word used, shouldn't we? From blueletterbible:

I don't beleive in the infallibility of anything but God and Jesus.
Why is there a need to "kill" something that is supposedly already dead ?

The concordance in my Bible also says that it means to put to death and that in Col 3.5 the verbe is in active form, wo that it means in this context to renounce the sinful acts that are normal in the world and to let no room for fleshly lusts.

OK, if it was put to death on Monday, is there any need to do the same thing on Tuesday ?
That biblical "mortification" is the point of no return to the "fleshly" life we have repented of.

The Bible is full of such mysteries, where at some places it seems to mean one thing and at other places, it seems to mean the opposite. It doesn't mean that the Bible contradicts itself, but that we face something that we cannot understand at first sight.

I agree.
Sometimes things written to the churches deal with information for non-church members and the still unconverted.
They are not meant for those already informed on the topic.
The Rom 8:13 and Col 3:5 verses are meant for the unlearned and not yet converted.
The learned and converted already experienced their "mortifications".
For us it is just an exhortation to "keep it dead".

I am not sure if I understand you correctly. Let's say that you used to lie a lot before you believed. Then you got convinced from the Holy Spirit that you are liar (John 16:8). At this point, you may not be aware of every sins that you committed, but that sin of “lying” was made clear to you from the Holy Spirit and that you were therefore a lost sinner. Then, you repented from your old life and turned to Christ. Which of the following is true in your eyes?

When I repented of sin, I didn't just repent of lying.
I turned from all darkness and unto the Light.

A) You repented from lying, so that you won't lie anymore afterwards. Not every once in any future occasion. You may commit other sins that you are not yet aware (and therefore not yet repented of). But as soon as you are made aware of a sin, you repent from it and stop doing it.
B) You repented from every sins, even from sins that you were not aware at the time of your conversion. Then you stop sinning altogether. Not even once will you entertain an evil though, say an evil word or do an evil act! No even once will you sin by ignorance!

"""B"""
I don't feel that there was anything evil that I was doing that I didn't know was a sin.

C) Something else?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Doesn't mean apostasy falling away from faith? That means: if someone never had once the right faith, then he can't apostasy, can he?

You are correct...
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages
a·pos·ta·sy/ əˈpästəsē/
noun
The abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief.
"the execution of their leader for apostasy brought widespread criticism"
Similar:
renunciation of belief
abandonment of belief
recantation
treachery
I guess I have been misusing the word when I used it to imply "a false doctrine".

He was and stays lost; he needs to hear the Gospel so that he can find salvation in Christ!

Yes, to the praise and glory of the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

That is, indeed, one apostacy.
But so is faith in any man who says obedience to God, or to His Son, in unnecessary for salvation.

Apostacy is when one conditions salvation on the acts of men, and deny Christ.

 

[JJonas]

It was a slap in the face for the posers.
Professing Christianity, they still served the devil.

Not it wasn't! No way that the Scripture can call servants of the devil pretending to be christians to be “babes in Christ” needing to be feed with milk (for their growth)! Scripture cannot lie! But it's not the first time I brought this fact to your attention. Why do you ignore Scripture when it refutes your theology, instead of letting your theology be corrected by Scripture?

Why is there a need to "kill" something that is supposedly already dead ?

If the Bible tells us so, who are we to oppose it? More accurately, the Bible says that the we are dead, but we still need to put to death our members. No contradiction here, just paradoxical truths that are both to be taken seriously! Here is how I understand it:

• Yes by being planted together in the likeness of [Christ's] death (Rom 6) we are one for all dead.
  • That speaks about an action at the core of the problem of sin. Already done.
• But we are commanded to put our members to death
  • That speaks about action on all the ramifications of sin. To be done everyday. Sanctification as a lifestyle

The Rom 8:13 and Col 3:5 verses are meant for the unlearned and not yet converted.

First, it looks like to me that you preach here work salvation, because the message of the Gospel to the lost is different.

Second, The surrounding texts refutes your claim:

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

It's the same recipients in the whole text. Yes, the ones who no longer walk (v. 7) in the mentioned evil things (v. 5), that have put off the old man with his deeds (v. 9) and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him (v. 10), are the same ones, who are commanded to put to death their members (v.5), and put off all kind of evil (v. 8) and to not lie to one another (v. 9).

Again, Scripture refutes your theology! Aren't you going to let Scripture correct it?

"""B"""
I don't feel that there was anything evil that I was doing that I didn't know was a sin.

You choosed B. Again, Scripture refutes your theology in many places:

• Sharp contention and division between Paul and Barnabas (Acts 15:36-39)
• Believers acting with hypocrisy, including Peter and Barnabas, which caused Paul to publicly confront Peter (Gal 2:11-14)
• For we all stumble in many things (James 3:2a)
• Sins of believers are addressed in many of the NT epistles, including what I already mention in 1 Cor. 3
• 1 John 1:8-9
• (...)

Feelings are deceitful! Do not trust your feelings, trust Scriptures!
There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death (Pr. 14:12)
The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? (Jer. 17:5)

There is no way continuing to debate if we don't both agree that we are not to suppress the Scripture when it refutes our theology but we are to let our theology be corrected by Scriptures!

 

[JJonas]

It was a slap in the face for the posers.
Professing Christianity, they still served the devil.
(...)

Dear Hopeful 2,

Our discussion about the doctrine of the sinless perfection is off-topic and needs to move to a new thread to stop polluting the original thread which is about the teachings of John Calvin.

You will find the new thread here: https://christianforums.net/threads...rinthians-3-1-4-and-colossians-3-5-10.104037/

Could you please answer in this new thread?
Thank you very much in advance!

 

[Hopeful 2]

Apostacy is when one conditions salvation on the acts of men, and deny Christ.

I think you may mean "heresy", instead of "apostacy".
If you really think about it though, every gift requires a recipient.
If there isn't someone around to receive the gift, in this case salvation and all it entails, of what use was the gift ?

 

[brightfame52]

I think you may mean "heresy", instead of "apostacy".
If you really think about it though, every gift requires a recipient.
If there isn't someone around to receive the gift, in this case salvation and all it entails, of what use was the gift ?

Apostacy is when one conditions salvation on the acts of men, and deny Christ.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Not it wasn't! No way that the Scripture can call servants of the devil pretending to be christians to be “babes in Christ” needing to be feed with milk (for their growth)! Scripture cannot lie! But it's not the first time I brought this fact to your attention. Why do you ignore Scripture when it refutes your theology, instead of letting your theology be corrected by Scripture?

If someone told me I was still a babe in Christ, or worse, carnal, I would have to examine my position relevant to Christ.
Hopefully the Corinthians did just that.

If the Bible tells us so, who are we to oppose it?

I am not "against it", but neither am I the audience Paul is referring to.
As a convert, I have already crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
It is the new comers who still needed instruction on killing the old man, and thus his ways.

More accurately, the Bible says that the we are dead, but we still need to put to death our members. No contradiction here, just paradoxical truths that are both to be taken seriously! Here is how I understand it:

• Yes by being planted together in the likeness of [Christ's] death (Rom 6) we are one for all dead.
  • That speaks about an action at the core of the problem of sin. Already done.
• But we are commanded to put our members to death
  • That speaks about action on all the ramifications of sin. To be done everyday. Sanctification as a lifestyle

If we are dead in Christ, all of us is dead.
As Paul wrote in 2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Are not our members part of the "old things" ?

First, it looks like to me that you preach here work salvation, because the message of the Gospel to the lost is different.

No, I don't preach works salvation, as I too don't consider the works Paul fought against necessary for salvation.
Circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, and tithing, etc., will profit nobody.
But if you don't think obedience to the commandments of the Lord and His apostles necessary for salvation, you have been deceived.

Second, The surrounding texts refutes your claim:
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

Did you catch that ?
"in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them."
Paul is referring to the past, preconversion time, of their lives.

It's the same recipients in the whole text. Yes, the ones who no longer walk (v. 7) in the mentioned evil things (v. 5), that have put off the old man with his deeds (v. 9) and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him (v. 10), are the same ones, who are commanded to put to death their members (v.5), and put off all kind of evil (v. 8) and to not lie to one another (v. 9).

I can't figure out why you can't see that Paul's audience is a mix of converts and learners still getting their feet firmly affixed to the Rock.
His exhortations apply to all, but some have already gone past the need to hear them again.
Others, not so much.

Again, Scripture refutes your theology! Aren't you going to let Scripture correct it?

Sure, but keep in mind that James has written that it takes enticement, lust, temptation, and actual commission of the sin to make anything a sin. (James 1:14-15)
If I didn't know something was a sin, it wasn't a sin.

You choosed B. Again, Scripture refutes your theology in many places:

• Sharp contention and division between Paul and Barnabas (Acts 15:36-39)

Please point out the sin in having a difference of opinion.

• Believers acting with hypocrisy, including Peter and Barnabas, which caused Paul to publicly confront Peter (Gal 2:11-14)

Is it really a sin to cater to visitors to the detriment of your homies ?
Is it a sin to put out the good towels only when VIPs come by ?

• For we all stumble in many things (James 3:2a)

The stumblers in James 3 were those being the many masters; preaching countering doctrines: salty and fresh water.
Both sweet water and bitter water can't come from the same source.
The wisdom of some was sensual, earthy, even devilish.
It was a classic "too many cooks spoil the broth" occasion.

• Sins of believers are addressed in many of the NT epistles, including what I already mention in 1 Cor. 3

If wickedness is not confronted, men couldn't differentiate between the real Christians and the posers.

• 1 John 1:8-9

Verses 6, 8, and 10, address those walking in darkness...sin.
Other verses, 5, 7, and 9, address those walking in light...God.
There is no cross-over.
1 John 2:3-6 is the concrete means of differentiating between the two..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Feelings are deceitful! Do not trust your feelings, trust Scriptures!
There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death (Pr. 14:12)
The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? (Jer. 17:5)

Good exhortation.
I also like this one from Paul..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
How does Calvin address that ?

There is no way continuing to debate if we don't both agree that we are not to suppress the Scripture when it refutes our theology but we are to let our theology be corrected by Scriptures!

I will hold to scripture if you will.
How about this one ?..."Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)