Joseph vs Potipher's wife

[th1b.taylor]

Don't eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you do something bad will happen; you'll die.
Don't eat the yellow snow. If you do, something bad will happen, but you probably won't die.

Jim,
I have been guilty of stepping over the line of good taste but when Reba calls me on it I apologize and shut up. Dude, man up, it doesn't hurt, nope, you'll grow from it.

 

[th1b.taylor]

God made no fruit legal or illegal. You are inserting a concept into the text that isn't there.
There is nothing in Genesis 2 to even suggest that God made anything "legal" or "illegal."
God told Adam he could eat the fruit of any tree except that one.
God warned Adam that eating the fruit of that one tree would cause death.
God did not say that it was "illegal" to eat that fruit and that "under the law" the penalty for eating it was death.
God warned Adam, "you will die."
He did not say, "Eat that fruit and I'll kill you as a penalty for breaking my fruit law."

iakov the fool

Jim,
Extreme legalism is found nowhere in the scriptures but that is where you jumped to, not good. If you are praying and submitting to the complete will of our God, I have no reason to believe God is not revealing the same mysterious understandings of the scriptures He reveals to me and hundreds of thousands of other believers.

I believe I gave you the Romans 2:1-15 but if I didn't, here it is and it is worthy to take note of God's own Word. Every human must deal with the Law written on their hearts by God. Please, study.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Are you serious?

She is or she would say nothing.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim,
Extreme legalism is found nowhere in the scriptures but that is where you jumped to, not good. If you are praying and submitting to the complete will of our God, I have no reason to believe God is not revealing the same mysterious understandings of the scriptures He reveals to me and hundreds of thousands of other believers.

Then it has been revealed to you that the church is like a hospital in which people are healed of the wounds of sin inflicted by the devil. (Parable of the Good Samaritan.)

I believe I gave you the Romans 2:1-15 but if I didn't, here it is and it is worthy to take note of God's own Word. Every human must deal with the Law written on their hearts by God. Please, study

.

That is not the subject of my comments. I was responding to your statement: "Sorry Jim, God made all the fruit legal except the fruit of one tree and He made that illegal, laws." which I find to be based in misunderstanding. The warning not to eat that one particular fruit had nothing to do with "legality."

An unfortunate consequence of the insertion of chapter and verse numbers in the 1500's is that they tend to cause people to divide unified theses into parts which then are mistaken as new topics. Romans 2 is a continuation of the thesis which Paul began in Romans 1. There is absolutely nothing in what Paul communicates in those two chapters to suggest that eating the forbidden fruit was a violation of any law in any legal code for which the penalty was death.

Rather, God's admonition not to eat that fruit was a warning to Adam, and to all mankind, that to attempt to be a god in your own right rather than to submit to God's perfect, gracious and merciful will for us will lead to both physical death and the eternal "second death."

That is the point I have been trying to make.

Death is not a penalty for violating God's legal code. Adam and Eve were not charged with felony fruit consumption, found guilty and condemned to death.

Death is what you get when you sin. It is the wages of sin, not the penalty for sin.

It is an interesting phenomenon that people, who after reading Paul's discourses on the fact that Gentile believers are not under the Law of Moses, have constructed a theology in which God operates according to Law yet has absolutely no concern for the good works done in response to His good and perfect will that we do them. It's rather astonishing, actually.

IMHO, God does not operate according to law, of Moses or otherwise. He operates according to His mercy and grace. God is the lover of mankind. Whoever honestly seeks to be accepted by God will be embraced by God no matter who he is or what he has done.

My 2 kopecks

And, by the way, I have studied.

I am a graduate of Fuller Theological Seminary and, beside a BA, have earned two other graduate degrees as well. I was tasked by the denomination, of which I used to be a member, to assist in the establishing of a Bible College in Russia for the unregistered Russian Pentecostal church. In that capacity I established the curriculum and taught classes.

And I continue to study.

iakov the fool

 

[jasonc]

first law ?
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

torah. gentiles. a torah is a command that is given like a father does to his sons

 

[Jim Parker]

torah. gentiles. a torah is a command that is given like a father does to his sons

Yes, that is one meaning.

However, when we speak of law (lower case "l") or of the Law (capital "L") with regard to scripture, we primarily speak of Torah (capital "T") which is found in the first 5 books of the Old Testament (Pentateuch) and also referred to as "the Law of Moses."

The command that is given like a father to a son is more likely to be found in the books of Proverbs and the Wisdom of Sirach.

In this case, we are discussing the "inappropriate" (IMHO) understanding of God's admonition to Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because to do so would result in Adam's death. It has been proposed that God's warning to Adam was, in fact, a matter of legality.

I believe that is a misunderstanding of scripture which arises from the modern, western, legalism by which man is "legally judged" to be "justified" (all charges of sin against him dismissed) because of his belief in Christ without any necessity of doing the good works for which he was created. (A curiosity, to say the least!)

And that's my attempt to stay on topic. (Hope I don't seem to pedantic!)

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

 

[jasonc]

Yes, that is one meaning.

However, when we speak of law (lower case "l") or of the Law (capital "L") with regard to scripture, we primarily speak of Torah (capital "T") which is found in the first 5 books of the Old Testament (Pentateuch) and also referred to as "the Law of Moses."

The command that is given like a father to a son is more likely to be found in the books of Proverbs and the Wisdom of Sirach.

In this case, we are discussing the "inappropriate" (IMHO) understanding of God's admonition to Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because to do so would result in Adam's death. It has been proposed that God's warning to Adam was, in fact, a matter of legality.

I believe that is a misunderstanding of scripture which arises from the modern, western, legalism by which man is "legally judged" to be "justified" (all charges of sin against him dismissed) because of his belief in Christ without any necessity of doing the good works for which he was created. (A curiosity, to say the least!)

And that's my attempt to stay on topic. (Hope I don't seem to pedantic!)

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

Hebrew rabbis will say that entire torah is that way i say it. it is. isreal was one whom YHWH says out of Egypt was my son born.

 

[Jim Parker]

Hebrew rabbis will say that entire torah is that way i say it. it is. isreal was one whom YHWH says out of Egypt was my son born.

O-Kaaayyy I don't get your point.

iakov the fool

 

[th1b.taylor]

Rather, God's admonition not to eat that fruit was a warning to Adam,

Jim, you are nit picking the scriptures and that must never be done for all heresy is given birth in exactly that manor. There existed a largely unrecorded contract between Adam, not Eve, and God the Creator. A Covenant that with the generations was ever growing with instruction and direction on living a Holy Life, devoted to God.

Not trying to be cute but using your standard fro law the States of Texas and Alabama owe me the amount of every speeding ticket I ever paid. Those signs were only warnings and had nothing to do with the law. It doesn't work that way and neither does God.

Death is not a penalty for violating God's legal code.

Are you sure? The penalty for bedding another man's wife or daughter is Death, then the Second Death that never ends.

It is an interesting phenomenon that people, who after reading Paul's discourses on the fact that Gentile believers are not under the Law of Moses, have constructed a theology in which God operates according to Law yet has absolutely no concern for the good works done in response to His good and perfect will that we do them. It's rather astonishing, actually.

The interesting point here is that you defend the imagined OSASed contract to sin any sin. You are in error because you are parting the scriptures into a giant waffle, this part in this square sand this part way over here in this square.

Scripture begins with, "In the beginning..." and the context is one smooth flow, right up to the very last Amen of Revelation 22. Hence the first rule I learned while seated under Brother Richard Clark, "No scripture, passage of scriptures nor collection of scriptures can ever be fully comprehended without the light of all scripture shinning on it/them."

No man will ever understand all of what God has for us in the scriptures but worse, far worse, no man can begin to understand the scriptures without daily reading, prayer and meditation.

The Law, all of it, found in the scripture is the perfect word picture of our Master, the Master we are to daily grow more like. You are trying to avoid God's Law for Living by holding them into the Pentateuch and that is never the truth.

 

[jasonc]

O-Kaaayyy I don't get your point.

iakov the fool

God gave the torah,as a means to know how to show you love him.if you lover me this is what you do,if you love me don't do this.these are called positive and negative commandments.do you love the YHWH,do not kill..it's not be saved bit to show what is in your heart.of course their is eternal consequences but the torah given at Horeb is a marriage by the Lord to isreal.it's much more then simply do and dont.it teaches
Signed
Jason, son of jerold, son of Harry, son of Jacob cranman ,son of isreal,son of isaac,son of Abraham
I am a Jewish believer.

 

[Jim Parker]

There existed a largely unrecorded contract between Adam, not Eve, and God the Creator. A Covenant that with the generations was ever growing with instruction and direction on living a Holy Life, devoted to God.

If it's unrecorded, how do you know it existed? You are arguing from silence.

Not trying to be cute but using your standard fro law the States of Texas and Alabama owe me the amount of every speeding ticket I ever paid. Those signs were only warnings and had nothing to do with the law.

That's not cute; it's false. Those signs were a public notice of the existence of specific state law codes and the intention of the police to enforce those laws by imposing the penalties defined by those codes. You can go online and look them up. There was no legal code, written or otherwise, at the time that God told Adam he would die if he ate that fruit.

Are you sure? The penalty for bedding another man's wife or daughter is Death, then the Second Death that never ends.

That penalty is from the Law of Moses and the 2nd death from Revelation. Joseph predate both of them. You are projecting the Law and the revelation of the second death backward into the time of Joseph. That is an anachronism; a logical fallacy.

The interesting point here is that you defend the imagined OSASed contract to sin any sin.

OSAS is to me a detestable notion. I thoroughly reject that assumption based on the OSAS teaching. A real believer strives, with the help of the Holy Spirit, to eliminate all sin from his life. As Martin Luther stated in the first of his 95 theses, "When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, ``Repent'' (Mt 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance."

You are in error because you are parting the scriptures into a giant waffle, this part in this square sand this part way over here in this square.

Scripture begins with, "In the beginning..." and the context is one smooth flow, right up to the very last Amen of Revelation 22. Hence the first rule I learned while seated under Brother Richard Clark, "No scripture, passage of scriptures nor collection of scriptures can ever be fully comprehended without the light of all scripture shinning on it/them."

Thank you for you opinion of what is my error. I have no idea who Bro. Richard Clark might be. I get my theology from the 7 Great Councils, the Early Church Fathers and other Saints of the Church.

Scripture has more than one point to make and it makes those multiple points in different passages. So, for example, I don't go to Leviticus to learn about the resurrection; I go to the passages of the Gospels that tell us about it. We are discussing a specific topic. The entire Bible, from cover to cover, does not specifically address that topic.

No man will ever understand all of what God has for us in the scriptures but worse, far worse, no man can begin to understand the scriptures without daily reading, prayer and meditation.

OK

The Law, all of it, found in the scripture is the perfect word picture of our Master, the Master we are to daily grow more like. You are trying to avoid God's Law for Living by holding them into the Pentateuch and that is never the truth.

I am trying to avoid nothing.

We Gentiles are not under the Law and neither was anyone prior to the giving of the Law.

To love God and your neighbor is the fulfillment of all Law.

Rom 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Mat 22:37-40 Jesus said ..., “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

You seem to be attempting to force God's grace, expressed in His mercy and love for mankind, into some kind of a legal code. Why would anyone do that??? Haven't we learned that we can't keep the Law, any law?

The Law was given to make us aware of sin. Jesus delivered mankind from the curse of the law and opened the gates of heaven to those who would believe and, believing, would strive to please Him and, when they failed, would confess their sins and repent in a concerted, focused, striving to please our Lord, the lover of mankind.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

 

[jasonc]

Oral law or in the Mishna,it's not said what written how God Dealt with that sin only that the Hebrews would teach the stories of isaac,and abraham in Egypt hiding their wives identity and how God warned the kings of Egypt and philistia over this .likely death .so it's best not to sin there.bill is saying that hades was for the lost souls .abraham mentions sheol as well as job describes it.

 

[reba]

O-Kaaayyy I don't get your point.

iakov the fool

We have all said about the same... Jason is a good brother He kinda grows on ya..

 

[jasonc]

I'm not a scholar or formally trained person on the torah.I need to listen to the Mishna by a rabbi thar is a messianic one .he teaches on genesis alot.the Mishna he uses is older then Ramban ,and prior to the Jerusalem Talmud being written.it's not the bible but still it's a commentary worth looking into.

 

[Jim Parker]

God gave the torah,as a means to know how to show you love him.if you lover me this is what you do,if you love me don't do this.these are called positive and negative commandments.do you love the YHWH,do not kill..it's not be saved bit to show what is in your heart.of course their is eternal consequences but the torah given at Horeb is a marriage by the Lord to isreal.it's much more then simply do and dont.it teaches
Signed
Jason, son of jerold, son of Harry, son of Jacob cranman ,son of isreal,son of isaac,son of Abraham
I am a Jewish believer.

Yes. Jesus told His followers, “If you love Me, keep My commandments. ( John 14:15)


The Covenant with Israel was written in the form of an ancient, Middle-Eastern Suzerain-Vassal treaty. Each party to the treaty had obligations to perform. For Israel, they were to obey the laws, regulations, and stipulations of the covenant. For God, He was to bless them for keeping the covenant and curse them for breaking it. The promise to Israel for keeping the covenant was that it would go well with them and they would live long in the land.

Deu 4:40 “You shall therefore keep His statutes and His commandments which I command you today, that it may go well with you and with your children after you, and that you may prolong your days in the land which the LORD your God is giving you"

The concept of God as the husband of Israel does not appear in scripture until around the time of the Exile.

Isa 54:5 For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.

The understanding of giving of Torah as a marriage ceremony is, I believe a "look backward" and was not seen as such at the time. (Particularly since it was in the standard form of a treaty) And, of course, that OT teaching of God as the Husband of His people is carried into the NT where the Church becomes the "Bride of Christ" and "of one flesh and bone" of Him. (Eph 5)

But that's good; I like that! Thank you.

I'm only 1/4 Jewish.

my 2 kopecks
Iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Oral law or in the Mishna,it's not said what written how God Dealt with that sin only that the Hebrews would teach the stories of isaac,and abraham in Egypt hiding their wives identity and how God warned the kings of Egypt and philistia over this .likely death .so it's best not to sin there.bill is saying that hades was for the lost souls .abraham mentions sheol as well as job describes it.

It seems to me that God was always ready to forgive any sin if the sinner was ready to repent. He urged Cain to repent and even after he killed his brother, God protected him. I see mercy mercy mercy mercy all the way through scriptures.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

 

[jasonc]

Yes. Jesus told His followers, “If you love Me, keep My commandments. ( John 14:15)


The Covenant with Israel was written in the form of an ancient, Middle-Eastern Suzerain-Vassal treaty. Each party to the treaty had obligations to perform. For Israel, they were to obey the laws, regulations, and stipulations of the covenant. For God, He was to bless them for keeping the covenant and curse them for breaking it. The promise to Israel for keeping the covenant was that it would go well with them and they would live long in the land.

Deu 4:40 “You shall therefore keep His statutes and His commandments which I command you today, that it may go well with you and with your children after you, and that you may prolong your days in the land which the LORD your God is giving you"

The concept of God as the husband of Israel does not appear in scripture until around the time of the Exile.

Isa 54:5 For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.

The understanding of giving of Torah as a marriage ceremony is, I believe a "look backward" and was not seen as such at the time. (Particularly since it was in the standard form of a treaty) And, of course, that OT teaching of God as the Husband of His people is carried into the NT where the Church becomes the "Bride of Christ" and "of one flesh and bone" of Him. (Eph 5)

But that's good; I like that! Thank you.

I'm only 1/4 Jewish.

my 2 kopecks
Iakov the fool

The concept of marriage is there.you are piecemeal the bible.god said in the bible he saw isreal as a baby and healed him,raised her then married her.when was god not in love with the seed of abraham? Isreaal was birthed at the passover event .jesus used thar to point to the reburth
And Noah found grace is a new concept or old one.did he find it by works. Jesus nor the apostles taught any new redefinition of grace.they ,the hebrew majority church new what that meant.it's more then just a simple acronym in fact Esther is a good example of that.when did god marry isreal then,horeb,by his covenant to abraham?or in the exile?it's by implication thar it's at horeb.why god redeemed them and showed the world they are mine.

 

[jasonc]

It seems to me that God was always ready to forgive any sin if the sinner was ready to repent. He urged Cain to repent and even after he killed his brother, God protected him. I see mercy mercy mercy mercy all the way through scriptures.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

The torah given at horeb,well there is a ton of grace there and mercy.

Under that was these penned
His mercy endure the forever, the Lord proclaimed his grace and mercy to moses at the cleft of the rock,as far as the east us to the west so are thy sins cast from me sight.

 

[th1b.taylor]

If it's unrecorded, how do you know it existed? You are arguing from silence.



That's not cute; it's false. Those signs were a public notice of the existence of specific state law codes and the intention of the police to enforce those laws by imposing the penalties defined by those codes. You can go online and look them up. There was no legal code, written or otherwise, at the time that God told Adam he would die if he ate that fruit.



That penalty is from the Law of Moses and the 2nd death from Revelation. Joseph predate both of them. You are projecting the Law and the revelation of the second death backward into the time of Joseph. That is an anachronism; a logical fallacy.



OSAS is to me a detestable notion. I thoroughly reject that assumption based on the OSAS teaching. A real believer strives, with the help of the Holy Spirit, to eliminate all sin from his life. As Martin Luther stated in the first of his 95 theses, "When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, ``Repent'' (Mt 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance."



Thank you for you opinion of what is my error. I have no idea who Bro. Richard Clark might be. I get my theology from the 7 Great Councils, the Early Church Fathers and other Saints of the Church.

Scripture has more than one point to make and it makes those multiple points in different passages. So, for example, I don't go to Leviticus to learn about the resurrection; I go to the passages of the Gospels that tell us about it. We are discussing a specific topic. The entire Bible, from cover to cover, does not specifically address that topic.



OK



I am trying to avoid nothing.

We Gentiles are not under the Law and neither was anyone prior to the giving of the Law.

To love God and your neighbor is the fulfillment of all Law.

Rom 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Mat 22:37-40 Jesus said ..., “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

You seem to be attempting to force God's grace, expressed in His mercy and love for mankind, into some kind of a legal code. Why would anyone do that??? Haven't we learned that we can't keep the Law, any law?

The Law was given to make us aware of sin. Jesus delivered mankind from the curse of the law and opened the gates of heaven to those who would believe and, believing, would strive to please Him and, when they failed, would confess their sins and repent in a concerted, focused, striving to please our Lord, the lover of mankind.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

my 2 kopecks
iakov the fool

All of this parceling is an example of your problem. This what you are doing to the scriptures and you, nor can I, do that to the ever flowing, living word of God, the Father. You just need to pray, read, submit to the Holy Spirit of God and meditate on the Word you have read. And stop trying to divide and conquer, it does not work when not in the Kill Zone.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Yes. Jesus told His followers, “If you love Me, keep My commandments. ( John 14:15)

And Jesus is the true author, through about forty men, of all of the Bible, including the Ten Commandments.