Bible Study Judge Not Les Ye Be Judged Explained

[Titus]

The weeping are from those unrepentant saints & former believers doing the weeping that gets left behind over the loss of not being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection.

But I do agree that saved believers that have gone astray need to be corrected and warned about the consequence of not looking to Jesus Christ for help in repenting in that they can reap corruption, lose the rewards of crowns and be left behind as castaways aka reprobates aka disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven. Getting stripes for the knowledge they had for not being ready & lesser stripes for not having knowledge for not being ready is no picnic either. Luke 12:40-49 & John 15:1-8

But God will judge a church and each unrepentant believer with death in according to their works when cast into the bed of the great tribulation per Revelation 2:18-25

There is but one crown my friend .
If the punishment is far worse for one who believed and yet fell away
for it had been better to never have to believed than to have
known the way of righteousness and then fallen away .
Even worse for ones who fell away . And its bad enough to have rejected HIM
I have seen where men tried to give us different crown stuff .
YET every time paul makes mention of the crown , its about the one crown .
The crown of eternal life , of righteousness . The crown
we get ON THE DAY OF JESUS .
I have kept the FAITH , I have endured , henceforth .............
Too many folks are unware that JESUS was serious when he said ,
HE who she who endures to THE END the same shall be SAVED .
Too many folks have found preachers and teachers that would exclude
and make void those very words . BUT LET US who are of the true faith
NEVER HEED such men .

 

[Titus]

So yeah.. we cannot judge as in condemn any believer or even a former believer as not saved or never a Christian, but because they are believers or they had believed in Him and are still saved for why He still abides in them.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

This is why there is hope for them as He still abides to correct them because God may be peradventuring to recover them from the snare of the devil.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I whiff mens doctrines .
Jesus warned so i say the same . Paul and others warned so i say the same
and then even from heaven JESUS warned so i say the same .
And that is this , and its not a sin to remind either .
HE who she who endures TO THE END shall be saved .

 

[Titus]

So yeah.. we cannot judge as in condemn any believer or even a former believer as not saved or never a Christian, but because they are believers or they had believed in Him and are still saved for why He still abides in them.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

This is why there is hope for them as He still abides to correct them because God may be peradventuring to recover them from the snare of the devil.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I have an idea . Say this real loud and for all to hear
GO ahead and tell everyone . HEY YOU DONT have to endure faithful to JESUS TO END
you saved regaurdless . Wait . I bet you cant say those words
cause something seems very wrong to even you to say such words .
GOOD .
SO lets heed these words . For we are made partakers of Christ
if we hold our confidence we had HIM , Faith IN HIM , FIRM TO
not half way , not even most the way , BUT TO THE END .

 

[Golgotha]

There is but one crown my friend .

#1 Crown of righteousness.

2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

#2. Crown of life

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

And yet again another reason in receiving this crown of life;

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

#3. Crown of glory

1 Peter 5:1The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

#4 Crown of gold

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

I do not read why it was given but I can assume that it was due to a position given as one of authority as the 24 elders. I will know for sure when we get there in Heaven.

But I point out that Jesus is wearing all of those crowns.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

There may be more crowns listed in scripture that I may have overlooked, but just sharing why I believe there is more than just one crown a believer will receive which are really His crowning achievements in us for why those 24 elders & I would cast our crowns at His feet in Heaven.

 

[Golgotha]

I have an idea . Say this real loud and for all to hear
GO ahead and tell everyone . HEY YOU DONT have to endure faithful to JESUS TO END
you saved regaurdless . Wait . I bet you cant say those words
cause something seems very wrong to even you to say such words .
GOOD .
SO lets heed these words . For we are made partakers of Christ
if we hold our confidence we had HIM , Faith IN HIM , FIRM TO
not half way , not even most the way , BUT TO THE END .

No. Consider the warning to those who seek what was lost by being defrauded in civil court cases.

1 Corinthians 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

In this case above, I would lean on the Lord about telling them that He would prefer them to suffer being defrauded. It is tough because the devil has a way of bringing it back into our minds to get a hold of our anger but we need His help to let go daily.

And I have been defrauded in a lot of ways, but I leave that vengeance to God and trust in Him to provide regardless of my loss.

1 Thessalonians 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

Instead I would rather tell a former believer and a carnal believer that because you have been bought with a price and sealed as His whereby your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit ( 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ) for why Jesus Christ is in you ( 2 Corinthians 13:5 ) & with you always ( Matthew 28:20 ), knowing all your thoughts and your deeds ( Hebrews 4:12-16 ), is why you should go to Jesus in prayer for discernment & truth so you can see your need for Him to help you repent with His help now to stop defiling the temple of God ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 & Matthew 15:18-20 ) or else risk being left behind to die in the coming great tribulation ( 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 & Revelation 2:18-25 ) when the Bridegroom comes and get stripes for the knowledge you had for not being ready, Luke 12:40-49 & Luke 21:33-36 & 2 Peter 3:3-14

God would have to be leading them in this to go through the scriptures as only He can recover them from any snare of the devil. 2 Timothy 2:24-26

My point that they are still saved is being shared with those who would condemn them as not and will not even bother to call them to repentance when as the Lord provides opportunities, we should as He enables us also to do as profitless servants.

 

[Golgotha]

I whiff mens doctrines .
Jesus warned so i say the same . Paul and others warned so i say the same
and then even from heaven JESUS warned so i say the same .
And that is this , and its not a sin to remind either .
HE who she who endures TO THE END shall be saved .

We are to love one another, even those who go astray to tell them the truth so they can see the need to go to Jesus for help not only to see the truth but His help to repent also.

I just don't want you to have the attitude that they were never saved and so why bother to correct them at all. You are not saying that, but you seem to think I am saying the opposite and that is not wat I am saying at all but what the scripture says

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

And that was after those who deny Him, former believers, He will deny them. So why say that in verse 13? Because those left behind are still saved for He still abides.

That is why Paul gave an example of a former believer but nevertheless we are still to call them to depart from iniquity or else.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

 

[Titus]

We are to love one another, even those who go astray to tell them the truth so they can see the need to go to Jesus for help not only to see the truth but His help to repent also.

I just don't want you to have the attitude that they were never saved and so why bother to correct them at all. You are not saying that, but you seem to think I am saying the opposite and that is not wat I am saying at all but what the scripture says

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

And that was after those who deny Him, former believers, He will deny them. So why say that in verse 13? Because those left behind are still saved for He still abides.

That is why Paul gave an example of a former believer but nevertheless we are still to call them to depart from iniquity or else.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

I do not have the attitude to not bother . its why i warn
cause i do not desire their death but rather they would repent .
We must follow the biblical pattern that JESUS set and the apostels kept and taught .

 

[Titus]

We are to love one another and this is why folks ought to correct any who does
err . For we are to love them as our own self . Correct . preach bible doctrine
and always correct any error and follow the pattern Christ set and the apostels had set .
Its the only pattern that will work .

 

[for_his_glory]

I will simply leave you with this reminder .
Did JESUS and the apostels ever accuse anyone of being wrong .
I also would like you to read again the messages to the seven churches .
I will ask you this question first .
IF i know a leader is false , say like joyce meyers or etc
do you think i should say nothing and allow them to teach and seduce
OR should i warn and say , FLEE THEM they are false .
Now before you answer , I want you to read the messages to the churches
and i want you to see what and why GOD warns some churches .
I will drop a hint .
IN one of the churches they had themselves a false prophetess teaching and seducing
the people . I guess the church was seeker friendly cause it was not
warning the people . BUT lets see how GOD views that .
I have THIS against you . YOU ALLOW . notice it said ALLOW .
You allow that false prophetess to teach and to seduce my people .
No . I will warn against every false teacher i see .
This has caused me to banned from many places .
Now i am not speaking against you or this post . I am simply saying
if i see error , And or false teachers like pope francis and scores of others
I am gonna warn folks . Out of great love i do so and no man can stop me .
You are dearly loved my friend . Now i was not speaking about
this post in particular . But just saying it to help folks understand
that i am not gonna let anyone sit under any false teacher or doctrine .
And the HOLY GHOST , as it has through all lambs and through all ages ,
IS the one prompting me to do such a thing .
Be encouraged . But i love the people . can you believe
that i have been banned from sites for trying to help even catholics
and others come out of dangerous systems . YET GOD was angry
at a church because they allowed folks to sit and listen to false teachers .
Why oh why cant we not just go back to the bible . be encouraged my friend .
This is not about the post . IT was just a reminder to help folks
understand that i am never gonna stop warning against false teachers .
And that if i see any in a dangerous system or teaching i am gonna warn

I know you are very passionate about this, and yes we are told in scripture to expose false teachers, but the best way to do that, especially in forums is to not point fingers at them and say you are wrong, but to tell them you do not agree with them and then discuss the differences with scripture. This way we can stay in the unity of love, even if we disagree.

Even ourself can get it wrong sometimes as the Holy Spirit will always send correction when needed by working through others to correct our error as we see a new light in scripture we never saw or understood before. When we share scripture with each other we need to be teachable as the Holy Spirit leads us in all truths.

This is what Jesus did by sending the angels to the seven churches in Asia as what was pointed out were good things they were doing, but also the bad things that needed corrected.

 

[Titus]

I know you are very passionate about this, and yes we are told in scripture to expose false teachers, but the best way to do that, especially in forums is to not point fingers at them and say you are wrong, but to tell them you do not agree with them and then discuss the differences with scripture. This way we can stay in the unity of love, even if we disagree.

Even ourself can get it wrong sometimes as the Holy Spirit will always send correction when needed by working through others to correct our error as we see a new light in scripture we never saw or understood before. When we share scripture with each other we need to be teachable as the Holy Spirit leads us in all truths.

This is what Jesus did by sending the angels to the seven churches in Asia as what was pointed out were good things they were doing, but also the bad things that needed corrected.

March ever onwards in the glorious Lord .

 

[Titus]

I know you are very passionate about this, and yes we are told in scripture to expose false teachers, but the best way to do that, especially in forums is to not point fingers at them and say you are wrong, but to tell them you do not agree with them and then discuss the differences with scripture. This way we can stay in the unity of love, even if we disagree.

Even ourself can get it wrong sometimes as the Holy Spirit will always send correction when needed by working through others to correct our error as we see a new light in scripture we never saw or understood before. When we share scripture with each other we need to be teachable as the Holy Spirit leads us in all truths.

This is what Jesus did by sending the angels to the seven churches in Asia as what was pointed out were good things they were doing, but also the bad things that needed corrected.

Yes indeed i am very passionate about this .
Love desires NONE to perish . Thus i will expose the deadly lies
of the catholic system and those even within the protestant realm .
I Aint letting no one skate on thin ice .

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes indeed i am very passionate about this .
Love desires NONE to perish . Thus i will expose the deadly lies
of the catholic system and those even within the protestant realm .
I Aint letting no one skate on thin ice .

Just remember to do it with love.

 

[Titus]

Just remember to do it with love.

Just like the love james , peter , jude , john , and paul had .
Its all in love . March on in the glorious Lord .
We have us an all out battle . the true gospel verses the all inclusive lie .
Let us stay glued to the one true gospel of Christ .
Now strap those boots on and let the Lord be praised .

 

[for_his_glory]

Just like the love james , peter , jude , john , and paul had .
Its all in love . March on in the glorious Lord .
We have us an all out battle . the true gospel verses the all inclusive lie .
Let us stay glued to the one true gospel of Christ .
Now strap those boots on and let the Lord be praised .

The battle belongs to the Lord as He alone will judge all of us for what we teach others and will separate the sheep from the goats. If we take on false teachings as a personal vendetta against men then we find ourselves judging the man and not what they teach. I hope you understand that.

We are to expose these false teachers, but we also need to prove with scripture that which is false. I have not seen you doing this.

 

[Titus]

The battle belongs to the Lord as He alone will judge all of us for what we teach others and will separate the sheep from the goats. If we take on false teachings as a personal vendetta against men then we find ourselves judging the man and not what they teach. I hope you understand that.

We are to expose these false teachers, but we also need to prove with scripture that which is false. I have not seen you doing this.

The battle does belong to the LORD , and He used paul , james , jude , peter
and all true lambs to expose error and to exhort only truth .
GOD works through the lambs .
As for scripture to expose .
Tell me where i have warned and i will happily bring the scrips to back it up .
Ask a few questions . What is it that you want me to expose .
IS it the devils RCC or the devils prosperity gospel
or maybe the devils seeker friendly , or his rick warren
or his todd white , or his etc . What do you want me to expose
and i will Gladly do it . Most folks think i aint spent time in the bible
or cannot back what i say with scripture .
PS i wont need to go to web sites to find the info . I wont have to click
on certain teachers to find the info . By grace i really have and do
love reading the bible . Be prepared to wail , cause i can expose
many a false teacher with many a scripture .
And lest anyone thinks me to be someone or something great
THINK AGAIN . I was the worst of the worst and only know as i
know by the mercy of GOD . When i tell folks to get into bibles
i am not playing the hyprocrite . BY grace i have loved to read to that bible .

 

[for_his_glory]

As for scripture to expose .
Tell me where i have warned and i will happily bring the scrips to back it up .
Ask a few questions . What is it that you want me to expose .
IS it the devils RCC or the devils prosperity gospel
or maybe the devils seeker friendly , or his rick warren
or his todd white , or his etc . What do you want me to expose
and i will Gladly do it .

All you are saying is that they are false teachers. Why not give us exactly what it is that they are teaching that is false and compare that to scripture. I can say that one teaches a doctrine of devils, but unless I can prove that then all I am doing is speculating.

We can not ask questions if we do not know what they are teaching, even though many of us do know that which is the doctrines of devils. Show us what is false in the doctrines they teach instead of just saying it's the devils RCC or that of what they teach about a prosperity gospel is false teaching. Show us their teachings compared to the truth found in scripture.

I could say you are a false teacher, but unless I can prove it with what is already written in scripture then all I am doing is speculating and judging with no proof. I hope you understand what I am saying.

 

[Titus]

All you are saying is that they are false teachers. Why not give us exactly what it is that they are teaching that is false and compare that to scripture. I can say that one teaches a doctrine of devils, but unless I can prove that then all I am doing is speculating.

We can not ask questions if we do not know what they are teaching, even though many of us do know that which is the doctrines of devils. Show us what is false in the doctrines they teach instead of just saying it's the devils RCC or that of what they teach about a prosperity gospel is false teaching. Show us their teachings compared to the truth found in scripture.

I could say you are a false teacher, but unless I can prove it with what is already written in scripture then all I am doing is speculating and judging with no proof. I hope you understand what I am saying.

Lord willing i will soon do a post about this all inclusive teaching .
Comparing it to the gosple , the words of the apostles and JESUS .

 

[Titus]

All you are saying is that they are false teachers. Why not give us exactly what it is that they are teaching that is false and compare that to scripture. I can say that one teaches a doctrine of devils, but unless I can prove that then all I am doing is speculating.

We can not ask questions if we do not know what they are teaching, even though many of us do know that which is the doctrines of devils. Show us what is false in the doctrines they teach instead of just saying it's the devils RCC or that of what they teach about a prosperity gospel is false teaching. Show us their teachings compared to the truth found in scripture.

I could say you are a false teacher, but unless I can prove it with what is already written in scripture then all I am doing is speculating and judging with no proof. I hope you understand what I am saying.

In the meantime , get buried in the bible again . Even if we have read it over
and over and over again , get buried in it .
I want us to compare their approach to todays approach .
Just watch and see how different it is .
Get buried again in the bible . The pure and lovely truth that does refresh
a soul .

 

[Titus]

#1 Crown of righteousness.

2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

#2. Crown of life

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

And yet again another reason in receiving this crown of life;

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

#3. Crown of glory

1 Peter 5:1The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

#4 Crown of gold

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

I do not read why it was given but I can assume that it was due to a position given as one of authority as the 24 elders. I will know for sure when we get there in Heaven.

But I point out that Jesus is wearing all of those crowns.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

There may be more crowns listed in scripture that I may have overlooked, but just sharing why I believe there is more than just one crown a believer will receive which are really His crowning achievements in us for why those 24 elders & I would cast our crowns at His feet in Heaven.

ALL those crowns are the one and same crown .
the crown is gold , the crown of righteousness , the crown of life
and so on and so forth . Where does our righteousness , eternal life
and so forth come from . FAITH IN JESUS .
Its the same crown . And its given ONLY those who
believed and had endured faithful in CHRIST .

 

[Titus]

All you are saying is that they are false teachers. Why not give us exactly what it is that they are teaching that is false and compare that to scripture. I can say that one teaches a doctrine of devils, but unless I can prove that then all I am doing is speculating.

We can not ask questions if we do not know what they are teaching, even though many of us do know that which is the doctrines of devils. Show us what is false in the doctrines they teach instead of just saying it's the devils RCC or that of what they teach about a prosperity gospel is false teaching. Show us their teachings compared to the truth found in scripture.

I could say you are a false teacher, but unless I can prove it with what is already written in scripture then all I am doing is speculating and judging with no proof. I hope you understand what I am saying.

Just wanted to encourage you . IF you ever did think i was a false teacher or
anything , do me a favor and warn me . Dont just let me continue on
I say that cause love warns and would remind . That is why i do warn as well .
I wont just let one believe a lie for the sake of unity and fellowship .
What kind of unity and fellowship would over look truth for the sake of
said unity and fellowship and then think it love .
I say this cause many are already under an influence of a false unity
a false fellowship that wont save anyone .
Be encouraged my friend . Like i say and said , let us get buried
in the bible again , fresh and new . compare how pual , james and others
sounded to todays men . It aint even in the same ball park .