Just What ARE The Problems With Soul Sleep?

[wavy]

I would read this thread from beginning to end, but...


I don't want to :

But I do not know if I agree with soul sleep or not. I lean towards the "not", however.

I think Walter Martin does a good job explaining it in The Kingdom of the Cults.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I would read this thread from beginning to end, but...

I don't want to :

That's your prerogative, wavy. Perhaps you consider the topic to be a non-issue in which case I don't know why you bothered with a response at all. I guess the main issue for me is not so much the belief that 'soul-sleep' vs. 'instant heaven/instant hell' has any bearing on one's salvation but more the fact that yet again mainstream Christianity teaches a false tradition as a fact.

But I do not know if I agree with soul sleep or not. I lean towards the "not", however.

Which surprises me given your thoroughness on other scriptural issues, wavy. How come this one has passed you by when the scriptures pertaining to this issue ARE quite specific in support of 'soul sleep'?

I think Walter Martin does a good job explaining it in The Kingdom of the Cults.

I'm again surprised that you would refer someone to a book that is likely upholding the traditional beliefs of mainstream Christianity. You disappoint me, wavy. I would more suggest that the Bible be one's guide on this topic. From my reading of the Bible I find it to be quite specific in its many references to the state of the dead ...known as 'soul sleep' to some. Because I and others get this from the scriptures alone, why would this somehow relegate us to the ranks of cult-thinking? Even should we be in error on this issue (although I don't see that from a biblical perspective) would it not be simply a case of our being in error without the need for the 'cult' tag being thrust upon us?

I've appreciated your posts on other scriptural issues, wavy, and have told you so. Just lately, however, I sense that your high profile on many forum issues is perhaps beginning to spoil you a little.

 

[wavy]

How come this one has passed you by when the scriptures pertaining to this issue ARE quite specific in support of 'soul sleep'?

Not to me, particularly.

I'm again surprised that you would refer someone to a book that is likely upholding the traditional beliefs of mainstream Christianity.

I know a guy who's whole theological basis for studying the scriptures is "if Christianity says one thing, go the opposite direction".

This foolishness has lead him deny Messiah's deity, and even his spotlessness from sin. He even denies him as the Light, claiming that it is a reference to wisdom only, as per Proverbs chapter 8 (although wisdom in that chapter is poetically YAHSHUA SPEAKING).

So basically, my point in saying this is to eat the hay and throw out the sticks. Not everything mainstream Christianity says is wrong. In this case, I believe Walter Martin does a good job on disproving soul sleep. I'm not 100% convinced yet, but yeah, I guess you could say I think soul sleep is false.

I would more suggest that the Bible be one's guide on this topic

It is.

Because I and others get this from the scriptures alone, why would this somehow relegate us to the ranks of cult-thinking? Even should we be in error on this issue (although I don't see that from a biblical perspective) would it not be simply a case of our being in error without the need for the 'cult' tag being thrust upon us?

You are an SDA, correct? Walter Martin does not even classify you as a cult. But he does address doctrines he thinks are wrong in the cultic religions. One of which I agree with him is the issue on soul sleep.

I've appreciated your posts on other scriptural issues, wavy, and have told you so. Just lately, however, I sense that your high profile on many forum issues is perhaps beginning to spoil you a little

Really? If this is the case, I'm seriously trying not to make seem this way...

 

[SputnikBoy]

How come this one has passed you by when the scriptures pertaining to this issue ARE quite specific in support of 'soul sleep'?

Not to me, particularly.

But you don't sound too sure, wavy. Can you present scriptures that DON'T support 'soul sleep'? Of course, one would also need to contradict the many other scriptures that DO consistently support 'soul sleep'.
Incidentally, until I came to the forum I'd never referred to the state of the dead as 'soul sleep.' I do so now just because others refer to the topic as such. I still prefer the term 'the state of the dead' although I'm not sure why. It could be that the term itself - 'soul sleep' - SOUNDS cultish.

I'm again surprised that you would refer someone to a book that is likely upholding the traditional beliefs of mainstream Christianity.

[quote:c9c7c]I know a guy who's whole theological basis for studying the scriptures is "if Christianity says one thing, go the opposite direction".

This foolishness has lead him deny Messiah's deity, and even his spotlessness from sin. He even denies him as the Light, claiming that it is a reference to wisdom only, as per Proverbs chapter 8 (although wisdom in that chapter is poetically YAHSHUA SPEAKING).

So basically, my point in saying this is to eat the hay and throw out the sticks. Not everything mainstream Christianity says is wrong. In this case, I believe Walter Martin does a good job on disproving soul sleep. I'm not 100% convinced yet, but yeah, I guess you could say I think soul sleep is false.

I truly hope that I'm not one of those who says, "If Christianity says one thing, go the opposite direction." If I should ever do that then I don't deserve to be heard. But, as both you and I know, wavy, there do appear to be some MAJOR doctrines where mainstream Christianity seems to be in error.

I would more suggest that the Bible be one's guide on this topic

It is.

But you haven't provided any scriptures to refute the 'soul sleep' concept so how can we even debate the issue? As you know yourself, there are scores of scriptures that refer to the dead as 'sleeping in their graves.' Even paul himself makes such references. Not that we're to believe - surely - that Paul somehow changed the 'law' pertaining to the state of the dead at the same time he abolished the commandments?!

Because I and others get this from the scriptures alone, why would this somehow relegate us to the ranks of cult-thinking? Even should we be in error on this issue (although I don't see that from a biblical perspective) would it not be simply a case of our being in error without the need for the 'cult' tag being thrust upon us?

You are an SDA, correct? Walter Martin does not even classify you as a cult. But he does address doctrines he thinks are wrong in the cultic religions. One of which I agree with him is the issue on soul sleep.

While I guess I should be thankful that Walter Martin doesn't classify SDAs as a cult, I still disagree with him as long as he believes that, at death, one either goes to heaven or hell. I just can't get that from the Bible, wavy. It really has nothing to do with one's denomination.

I've appreciated your posts on other scriptural issues, wavy, and have told you so. Just lately, however, I sense that your high profile on many forum issues is perhaps beginning to spoil you a little

Really? If this is the case, I'm seriously trying not to make seem this way...

Well, that's nice to hear. I therefore hope that this topic is not beneath you and that you might even find the time to check out some of the previous posts in this thread. :wink: [/quote:c9c7c]

 

[wavy]

But you haven't provided any scriptures to refute the 'soul sleep' concept so how can we even debate the issue?

That's because I said I was going to stay out of the debate...

 

[SputnikBoy]

But you haven't provided any scriptures to refute the 'soul sleep' concept so how can we even debate the issue?

That's because I said I was going to stay out of the debate...

Okay.

 

[guibox]

But you haven't provided any scriptures to refute the 'soul sleep' concept so how can we even debate the issue?

That's because I said I was going to stay out of the debate...

But if you say things like

"In this case, I believe Walter Martin does a good job on disproving soul sleep. I'm not 100% convinced yet, but yeah, I guess you could say I think soul sleep is false"

Then I would hope that you would join in the debate to defend your position.

I would recommend that we abandon the term "soul sleep" because it is not accurate and can conjure up different views based on your mindset.
The more appropriate question for the thread should be:

"So what is wrong with resurrection to immortality and not immediate rewards at death"?

 

[wavy]

But if you say things like

"In this case, I believe Walter Martin does a good job on disproving soul sleep. I'm not 100% convinced yet, but yeah, I guess you could say I think soul sleep is false"

Then I would hope that you would join in the debate to defend your position.

Actually, what that means is is that Walter Martin needs to be read to know what I am talking about, and that I need to find the time to read everything in here and then study and then come to a conclusion (or not). Either way, right now I don't have the time or the willingness... :wink:

 

[guibox]

What normally happens (because it was ingrained in us as children) is that most approach the topic of what happens when we die with the preconceived notion that the soul is immortal.

This then taints exegetical study of texts such as 2 Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:21-23 and also makes them skew (or blatantly ignore) the clear texts throughout all scripture that show immortal life is only realized in the resurrection.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Actually, if the truth be known, wavy, I think this is the one area of scripture that you have no idea about and that bothers you. You're so 'gung-ho' on other issues ...not that that is necessarily bad. Therefore, your rather casual approach here might be just your way of concealing your ineptness to deal with the topic of the state of the dead ...right? This is just a 'sort of' dig, by the way, since I DO appreciate your contributions on other threads.

Anyway, since you were the one to bring this up, is there any chance that you could quote some of the Walter Martin book so that we can agree or disagree with what he has to say? That is, when you have the time and the willingness, of course ... ;-)

 

[wavy]

It's not that I don't know anything about it, persay. Just that I haven't studied it out to make some type of credible presentation.

But, to satisfy your request, here we go:

Just to let you know I am on typing it, I will come back and edit this. Give me a few minutes to type something.

***EDIT***

(He has 2 Timothy 1:10 as #3 in a list of scriptural headings and then proceeds...)

The Apostle Paul writes that God's eternal purpose "is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel". In this verse "life" (zoen) and "immortality" (aptharsian) are clearly distinguished. Life has been bestowed upon the believer at the moment of regeneration by faith in Jesus Christ (1 John 5:11, 12); immortality is a future gift, to be bestowed upon the believer's body at the second advent of our Lord, or as Paul expressed it, "This corruptible must put on incorruption (apatharsian), and this mortal must put on immortality" (athansian).

Again in Romans 2:7, the Apostle clearly distinguishes between "eternal life" as a conscious quality of spiritual existence bestowed upon the believer as a gift; and "immortality," which, in this connection in the New Testament refers to the resurrection bodies of the saints or to the nature of God himself. Thus, God's Word clearly indicates the difference between "life" as spiritual existence, and "immortality," incorruptibility in a body like that of our risen Lord.

(Sorry it took so long. I couldn't find something short enough at first).

 

[guibox]

Again in Romans 2:7, the Apostle clearly distinguishes between "eternal life" as a conscious quality of spiritual existence bestowed upon the believer as a gift; and "immortality," which, in this connection in the New Testament refers to the resurrection bodies of the saints or to the nature of God himself. Thus, God's Word clearly indicates the difference between "life" as spiritual existence, and "immortality," incorruptibility in a body like that of our risen Lord.

The rest of the bible doesn't distinguish between the two and neither does it specifically separate the 'body' as being an individual in this process. Rather we see Christ's words in John that links the two together (eternal life and immortality)

(Paraphrased by guibox) "This is the will of Him who sent me, that whoever believes in the son has eternal life and I will raise Him up at the last day. - John 6:40,47

If my 'soul' goes to heaven at death and gets a spiritual body (as some insist 2 Corinthians 5:8 is saying) then a resurrection for an immortal physical body is useless and redundant.

When we truly look closely at 1 Corinthians 15, we see that eternal life in the world to come was direct linked with the resurrection. Without the first resurrection, there would be no life! Such a continual emphasis is completely unecessary is the 'soul' is eternal at death.

Couple this with 2 Timothy 6:8 where we see when Paul expected to receive his reward and we see that Martin's theory on trying to make the 'soul' and 'body' separate with no biblical reference to the sort, doesn't hold water.

 

[wavy]

The rest of the bible doesn't distinguish between the two and neither does it specifically separate the 'body' as being an individual in this process.

Debatable, I would guess.

Rather we see Christ's words in John that links the two together (eternal life and immortality)

(Paraphrased by guibox) "This is the will of Him who sent me, that whoever believes in the son has eternal life and I will raise Him up at the last day. - John 6:40,47

Again, it seems this is another distinction. Whoever believes in the Son has life, and he will be (future) resurrected in the last day.

If my 'soul' goes to heaven at death and gets a spiritual body (as some insist 2 Corinthians 5:8 is saying) then a resurrection for an immortal physical body is useless and redundant.

I don't know about, and said nothing of "spiritual bodies", so I'm not going to deal with this point.

When we truly look closely at 1 Corinthians 15, we see that eternal life in the world to come was direct linked with the resurrection. Without the first resurrection, there would be no life!

We have life if we believe in the Name of Yahweh through Yahshua. I'm sure this has been brought up in previous pages, but he that believes in Yahshua "will never die".

Couple this with 2 Timothy 6:8 where we see when Paul expected to receive his reward and we see that Martin's theory on trying to make the 'soul' and 'body' separate with no biblical reference to the sort, doesn't hold water.

Walter Martin talks about this, but it is a lot to type.

 

[irishrain]

The whole SUBJECT of these vs. is WHERE THE DEAD ARE.
You have to rightly divide these verses.

1 Ths 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

This is speaking of "them which are asleep", which speaks of those whohave already passed through this earth age. The earthly flesh of these people is that which is deceased. The spirit and soul of the individual is very much alive, although, it is in the heavenly dimension.

The word in the Greek translated as "them are asleep" is koimooménoon.
2837 koimao (koy-mah'-o);
from 2749; to put to sleep, i.e. (passively or reflexively) to slumber;
figuratively, to decease:
KJV-- (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
2749 keimai (ki'-mahee);
middle voice of a primary verb; to lie outstretched (literally or figuratively):
KJV-- be (appointed, laid up, made, set), lay, lie. Compare 5087.
[Strong's]

Now, there is a difference between "them also which sleep in Jesus" and
those who have already passed through this earth age, but are still yet
spiritually dead.
Those who are spiritually dead (who died an flesh death), but 'did not accept JESUS CHRIST, as their SAVIOR', are held in a place in the
Heaven, which is separated from those who have overcome
("them also which sleep in Jesus").

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which
sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Rev19:14

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

As we can see, those who have died an flesh death (having passed
through this earth age) which were "in Jesus", are residing in that part of
the Heaven with JESUS CHRIST, because they too have defeated "Death" which is Satan.

And, when the time comes, at the last trump, for Jesus return, all
those who had already passed from the flesh, having died an flesh death, which are "in Jesus" will return with HIM.

1 Cor 15:52-57
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be
changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on
immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal
shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is
written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus
Christ. (KJV)

Those who have passed from their flesh bodies, which did not accept
JESUS as their SAVIOR, will remain "away" (separated from) those who have overcome.
These will to taught during The LORD'S Day.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

This "shall not prevent them which are asleep" is to say, that those who had
been dwelling still yet in the earthly flesh, at the time Jesus returns, shall not precede them who have already passed and are dwelling "in Jesus".

"shall prevent " ["not"]
5348 phthano (fthan'-o);
apparently a primary verb; to be beforehand, i.e. anticipate or precede; by
extension, to have arrived at:
KJV-- (already) attain, come, prevent.

5348 phthano-
1) to come before, to precede, to anticipate
2) to come to, to arrive at
3) to reach, to attain to

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The word "shall rise" was written anasteésontai.
It means "to stand" unmovable "in Christ".

450 anistemi (an-is'-tay-mee);
from 303 and 2476; to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):
KJV-- arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).
303 ana (an-ah');
a primary preposition and adverb; properly, up; but (by extension) used
(distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.):
KJV-- and, apiece, by, each, every (man), in, through. In compounds (as a
prefix) it often means (by implication) repetition, intensity, reversal, etc.
2476 histemi (his'-tay-mee);
a prolonged form of a primary stao (stah'-o) (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in
various applications (literally or figuratively):
KJV-- abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay,
present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare 5087.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
"Then we which are alive these remain together with them shall be caught
up in clouds to meet the Lord in air."
"And so shall we ever with Lord be."

The word "are alive" is zoóntes.
2198 zao (dzah'-o);
a primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively):
KJV-- life (-time), (a-) live (-ly), quick.

2198 zao-
1) to live, to breathe, to be among the living (not lifeless, not dead)
2) to enjoy real life:
a) to have true life that is worthy of the name
b) to be active, blessed, and endless in the kingdom of God
3) to live, that is, to pass life, in the manner of the living and acting
of mortals or character
4) living water, having vital power in itself and exerting the same upon the
soul
5) metaphorically, to be in full vigor
a) to be fresh, strong, efficient,
b) as adjective: active, powerful, efficacious

Who are those who "are alive" (zoóntes)? This speaks of spiritually alive.
Remember, all flesh is dissolved away at the moment that JESUS returns.
Therefore, those who "are alive" (zoóntes) will be gathered unto The LORD,
meeting HIM in the "breath of Life" spiritual bodies. {not atmosphere}.

Those who have not accepted CHRIST as their SAVIOR, are still "spiritually dead", and shall be kept separated until The LORD'S DAY is completed.
These will be taught, giving them the opportunity to either overcome by accepting CHRIST honestly and completely, or allowing them to choose to utterly perish.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[guibox]

This is speaking of "them which are asleep", which speaks of those whohave already passed through this earth age. The earthly flesh of these people is that which is deceased. The spirit and soul of the individual is very much alive, although, it is in the heavenly dimension.

This is not studying the passage exegetically, irish. you are putting your preconceived ideas of the 'soul' and 'spirit' which cannot be proven by the Bible into the text. The text makes no mention of a 'soul' or 'spirit'.

The word in the Greek translated as "them are asleep" is koimooménoon.
2837 koimao (koy-mah'-o);
from 2749; to put to sleep, i.e. (passively or reflexively) to slumber;
figuratively, to decease:
KJV-- (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
2749 keimai (ki'-mahee);
middle voice of a primary verb; to lie outstretched (literally or figuratively):
KJV-- be (appointed, laid up, made, set), lay, lie. Compare 5087.
[Strong's]

Now, there is a difference between "them also which sleep in Jesus" and
those who have already passed through this earth age, but are still yet
spiritually dead.

This is not proper study. One cannot be 'asleep in their graves in Jesus' (i.e. dead but saved) and yet be alive somewhere in heaven. You are making a distinction between body and soul that the scriptures do not do and which cannot be supported by this text.

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which
sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Rev19:14

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

As we can see, those who have died an flesh death (having passed
through this earth age) which were "in Jesus", are residing in that part of
the Heaven with JESUS CHRIST, because they too have defeated "Death" which is Satan.

Hmm...Not according to 1 Corinthians 15:51-55. According to this, it is only at the resurrection that 'death is swallowed up in victory'. Not at death.

Many people look at the phrase "will God bring with Him" to mean that all the saints in heaven who've died and 'gone on', will be coming down so their souls can inhabit their bodies. There are a few problems with this view:

1) This interpretation wrongly assumes and reads into the text that man has an immortal soul that needs to come back to its body
2) It contradicts and makes meaningless the rest of the passage that places so much emphasis on resurrection.
3) It ignores the surrounding verses that structurally explain the phrase 'will God bring with Him' and that also become meaningless and redundant in light of that interpretation.

Look at the first part...

Brothers I wouldn't have you to be ignorant concerning them which are asleep - vs 13

Literally,' those who have died in the faith'. What's going to happen for those who've 'gone on'? Interesting that throughout the whole NT, when it comes to explain the fate of the righteous and eternal life, Paul preaches the resurrection and not immortality of the soul. And just to further reiterate that life is in resurrection he continue...

That you sorrow not even as others which have no hope - vs 14

Two things here:

1) Why sorrow if the souls of loved ones are already enjoying bliss of heaven?
2) Those 'who have no hope' means those not inheriting eternal life.

In other words Paul is saying, "Don't fret about you loved ones who died like those who don't have the hope of eternal life! They will not be as such. There is hope!" The second coming is the blessed hope of eternal life! We don't have to sorrow as those who are lost forever because we will be raised to life!


We must look at the meaning of what is said before 'will God bring with Him'. "FOR IF we believe that Jesus DIED and ROSE again." What about it, what if we believe in this resurrection of Christ? It is further explained and relevant to what was just said:

'EVEN SO'... In some bibles this is directly translated rightly 'in the same manner of'....them also which sleep in Jesus'

The bible makes it plain that those which are sleeping are in their graves dead. It makes no sense to say that those which are sleeping are being brought down to earth. They are therefore not sleeping, but awake in some form. It is redundant to talk about the dead in their graves sleeping the sleep of death and at the same time talk about them coming with Christ in the same breath.

'will God bring with Him'.

Let's look at this phrase, 'will God bring with Him'. It is the Son of man coming to His kingdom, not God the Father. The scriptures constantly say this. It doesn't make any sense to interpret it like this:

'Even so them also which are sleeping in their graves, God the Father will bring down from heaven with Christ the Son'

What we do know is that God raised the Son from the depths of the grave (Acts 2:34)

When we see the logic of the verse, the phrases 'if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them which sleep in Jesus' make a whole lot sense. What it is saying is this:

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same manner will God raise those who are asleep in Christ the same way."

Which then shows us HOW.

For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God - vs 16

I am usually afraid of paraphrase editions because they usually take traditional interpretation of a verse instead of what the context says. However, the Message bible got this verse dead on, even better than the KJV. Look at this!

And regarding the question, friends, that has come up about what happens to those already dead and buried, we don't want you in the dark any longer. First off, you must not carry on over them like people who have nothing to look forward to, as if the grave were the last word. Since Jesus died and broke loose from the grave, God will most certainly bring back to life those who died in Jesus

This is right on and instead of adding confusion like many paraphrases, completely cleans up any ambiguity and stays true to the context.

1 Cor 15:52-57
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be
changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on
immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal
shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is
written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus
Christ. (KJV)

This text completely blows away what you have been saying if you actually look at it contextually and look at the entire chapter.

This "shall not prevent them which are asleep" is to say, that those who had been dwelling still yet in the earthly flesh, at the time Jesus returns, shall not precede them who have already passed and are dwelling "in Jesus".

"shall prevent " ["not"]
5348 phthano (fthan'-o);
apparently a primary verb; to be beforehand, i.e. anticipate or precede; by
extension, to have arrived at:
KJV-- (already) attain, come, prevent.

5348 phthano-
1) to come before, to precede, to anticipate
2) to come to, to arrive at
3) to reach, to attain to

All this verse is saying is that we will not leave this earth before the dead are raised up from the grave where they have been sleeping since they died.

SUMMARY

To ignore the phrase "if we believe that Jesus died and rose again" to help explain it is to make this verse a meaningless 'island' in the passage. Rather, it further helps us understand. If we can believe that, we belive that God raised Christ from the dead 'of which we are all witnesses'. Then God will bring those who've died in the same manner as Christ was raised. Paul emphasises this fact in 1 Corinthians 15.

You cannot logically and structurally throw in a completely misplaced reference to 'souls coming down from heaven' into this passage.

 

[irishrain]

This is not studying the passage exegetically, irish. you are putting your preconceived ideas of the 'soul' and 'spirit' which cannot be proven by the Bible into the text. The text makes no mention of a 'soul' or 'spirit'.

Some are Spiritually dead, then some are nekros as in dead as a corpse.
Your spirit is the interllect of your soul, your self, you.

Learn what nekros is.
By EW Bullinger
http://www.companionbiblecondensed.com/AP/ap139.pdf

This is not proper study. yet be alive somewhere in heaven. You are making a distinction between body and soul that the scriptures do not do and which cannot be supported by this text.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

dead as a corpse

nekros

Lexicon Results for nekros (Strong's 3498)
Greek for 3498

Pronunciation Guide
nekros {nek-ros'}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 4:892,627 from an apparently primary nekus (a corpse)
Part of Speech
adj
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) properly

a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless

b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell

c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate

2) metaph.

a) spiritually dead

1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins

2) inactive as respects doing right

b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
-----
and the dead in Christ shall rise first

Why do the the dead in Christ rise first? Because when you die your soul goes instantly back to GOD.

yet be alive somewhere in heaven

Where do you think they are? Their flesh is as dirt. Gen 3:19 But their soul is with GOD.

Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
silver cord is spinal cord
golden bowl is your head
pitcher is failure of the heart
wheel by which brought u by a rope for the cister, or well
YOU DIE

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust(flesh) return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Why do the the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are with HIM, they come back at the 7th trumph with HIM.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Irish,

How about this?

The parousia is the establishment of the kingdom of Heaven.

It surely is said that the spirit returns to the God who gave it, but this verse says nobody has gone to Heaven yet, and Jesus said it:

John 3
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heavenâ€â€the Son of Man

The verse above is pretty straightforward. I don't think we have to look back at Enoch to try to prove Jesus made a mistake here.

How about God is still in control of that spirit that sleeps in the grave. The physical body decays and returns to dust, but the spirit/soul/immortal soul/inner self/ the 'you' sleeps.

Actually I have never found a great deal of verses that don't agree with that in the NT. (About two verses come to mind)

So then the sting of death is beaten at the parousia because at the parousia begins the heavenly spiritual, invisble eternal life and that inheritance carries on for everyone who will ever live in the system.

That doctrine levels out some of the bumps you brought up.

Just thru this in for thought, carry on with your own conversation until you have time if you care to. Thanks

noble6