Just What ARE The Problems With Soul Sleep?

[adventageous]

Since I asked for your understanding on Ecc. 12:7, I'll respond to your comments regarding Ecc. 12:7

The dead person goes to his eternal home

Where is this eternal home you speak of?

Strictly reasoning with just the OT Scriptures, I would confidently hazard a belief that the dead goes straight to the grave (becoming dust), awaiting the resurrection.

God said to our first parents that they would die and BECOME DUST: Gen 3:19

So did wise King Solomon in Ecc. 12:7

So did David in Psalms 104:29

Job said in Job 21:32 and Job 7:9 that the dead shall remain in the grave.

But the good thing is that it isn't ETERNAL!

Job gave us a glimmer of hope (in a future resurrection) in Job 14:12-14, by stating that God will remember the dead at His appointed time.

This is in the Old Testamnet so in my understanding Heavenly afterlife is not available yet so I assume the spirit going to the God who gave it is only in the sleep mode situation.

I don't quite understand what you're saying here. However, Did God only permit access to the "heavenly afterlife" to the living? Enoch*? Elijah*?

What about Moses*?

*Caveat: Of course, this only applies if you believe that Enoch and Elijah went to Heaven w/o seeing death, and that Moses was resurrected. I don't know. I haven't been on the boards too long to know what you believe.

The body returns to the dust and because it earlier says the eternal home I assume the body stays in the dust forever.

Your assuming. Not good. Job didn't say forever. Please, use Scriptures to back up your point rather than assuming.

It is that spirit that returns to God that will live again in the Heavenly realm at the time of the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven.(parousia)

What do you mean that the spirit will live again? When did it die?

Hypothetically, would this be Biblical to use Ecc. 12:7 as a proof text that the wicked dead goes to Heaven immediately after death? If not, why not?

Thanks in advance.

 

[noblej6]

Hi adventageous,

I'm sorry, I thought Vic had typed up that second question there.

The eternal home I take from here as you quoted earlier:

7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it:

Because it says in verse 5
.......Then man goes to his eternal home
and mourners go about the streets.

I take the eternal home of the body to be the grave and the eternal home of the inner self, the spirit, the immortal soul to be with God.

When Jesus was on earth He said that no one had ever gone to Heaven so at that point in Eccesiastes 12 these souls or spirits would not have been in Heaven but somehow were in God's control.

Strictly reasoning with just the OT Scriptures, I would confidently hazard a belief that the dead goes straight to the grave (becoming dust), awaiting the resurrection.

In OT scripture, exactly.

Job gave us a glimmer of hope (in a future resurrection) in Job 14:12-14, by stating that God will remember the dead at His appointed time.

Job and many others.


I wrote about the sleep mode situation.........

I don't quite understand what you're saying here. However, Did God only permit access to the "heavenly afterlife" to the living? Enoch*? Elijah*?

God didn't permit access to Heaven to anybody at that time as it says here:

John 3
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heavenâ€â€the Son of Man.

What about Moses*?

*Caveat: Of course, this only applies if you believe that Enoch and Elijah went to Heaven w/o seeing death, and that Moses was resurrected. I don't know. I haven't been on the boards too long to know what you believe.

No, Jesus said nobody had gone to Heaven and that was after the whirlwind and the Exodus and all the rest. I don't know where they went, but Jesus tells us it wasn't to Heaven.

Your assuming. Not good. Job didn't say forever. Please, use Scriptures to back up your point rather than assuming.

I'll use plenty of scripture, and then it requires the assumption that one choses to have faith and believe.

What do you mean that the spirit will live again? When did it die?

When Adam ate the Kiwi.

Hypothetically, would this be Biblical to use Ecc. 12:7 as a proof text that the wicked dead goes to Heaven immediately after death? If not, why not?

I think there is a typo there because the wicked dead never go to Heaven at death or any other time.

Prior to the parousia they....

Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

After Jesus makes arrangements the dead in the graves...

John 5

29and come outâ€â€those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

So before the parousia the wicked dead AND the righteous lay asleep in the dust and at the parousia there is a resurrection of the dead where those who sleep in the dust are spiritually resurrected to Heaven or Hell. People no longer have to sleep in the dust aware of nothing when they suffer physical death. after the time of the parousia ..
1 Cor 15
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

As we also can understand from here:
2 Cor 5
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

noble6

 

[adventageous]

The eternal home I take from here as you quoted earlier:

7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it:

Because it says in verse 5
.......Then man goes to his eternal home and mourners go about the streets.

In the KJV, it says "...man goeth to his long home..."

"long" here is translated from the Hebrew word 'olam', which basically means 'concealed, vanishing, out of mind".

The same word is used in Psa. 143:3 and Isa. 42:14

And in this context, I don't think it can be properly interpreted to literaly mean 'eternal', especially when Job gave evidence of a future resurrection for the dead.

I take the eternal home of the body to be the grave and the eternal home of the inner self, the spirit, the immortal soul to be with God.

What OT Scriptures are you using to justify this reasoning? Where in the OT does it state that the soul is 'immortal'? Additionally, where in the OT, does it say that the soul goes to be with God immediately after death?

So far, Ecc. 12:7 only states that the spirit goes back to God, whom gave it. Where do you get (OT only) the soul goes to God after death?

Various OT Scriptures state that the soul can die.

When Jesus was on earth He said that no one had ever gone to Heaven so at that point in Eccesiastes 12 these souls or spirits would not have been in Heaven but somehow were in God's control.

That's not what Jesus meant. But, let's not jump the gun too quickly. Let's both establish what the OT Scriptures are saying about life after death, then we can move on to NT Scriptures.

I think there is a typo there because the wicked dead never go to Heaven at death or any other time.

So, you think there's a typo in Ecc. 12:7, thus invalidating it's meaning? Really? Why? Why isn't it Biblically sound to use this verse to prove that the wicked dead immediately goes to be with God in Heaven? That's what it says, doesn't it?

Why don't you believe Moses went to Heaven immediately after death?Doesn't Ecc. 12:7 prove that he did go to Heaven immediately after death?

Didn't you just say earlier that the spirit, the inner self goes to be with God? Then, that has to include the wicked dead too, right? Ecc. 12:7 doesn't discriminate or specify.

What do you mean that the spirit will live again? When did it die?

When Adam ate the Kiwi.

Can you elaborate, please?

 

[guibox]

Didn't you just say earlier that the spirit, the inner self goes to be with God? Then, that has to include the wicked dead too, right? Ecc. 12:7 doesn't discriminate or specify.

Yes. That is a very good point. None of the OT texts specify between the righteous and the wicked. It is ALL man who's soul die and ALL men's 'spirit' who goes back to God who gave it'.

The fundamental problem is people trying to translate the 'spirit' as the 'soul' which survives death as some ethereal thinking substance and goes to live in heaven awaiting a 'soul/body' reunification.

This thinking is so foreign to the bible that I can't fathom how people can miss the obvious thought that permeates throughout the entire bible: life after death is only realized and fulfilled at the resurrection of the dead, not at death.

The proof for the immortal soul that goes to heaven to live at death and comes down to inhabit a body is virtually non-existent with myriads of texts, culture and linguistic support that proves the opposite.

And yet we have people defending it completely with their entire heart, calling those who believe in it 'cultic'.

Why? When there is so much proof for it and virtually none for the other side, why do poeple insist that it doesn't exist?

And we see that many scholars and people from all faiths are seeing this more and more and abandoning this Catholic belief as the falsehood from hell that it is.

 

[Featherbop]

And yet we have people defending it completely with their entire heart, calling those who believe in it 'cultic'.

I've wondered that also, but I think I know why: The vast majority of Christian denominations and most religions hold strictly to the concept of an immortal soul, so, naturally, one that doesn't is going to be noticed and attacked, because, apparently, it is a big deal to have immortality now.

Why? When there is so much proof for it and virtually none for the other side, why do poeple insist that it doesn't exist?

Tradition. If religions in ancient times had beleived in the 'mortal soul', most people would beleive that today instead.

 

[SputnikBoy]

And yet we have people defending it completely with their entire heart, calling those who believe in it 'cultic'.

I've wondered that also, but I think I know why: The vast majority of Christian denominations and most religions hold strictly to the concept of an immortal soul, so, naturally, one that doesn't is going to be noticed and attacked, because, apparently, it is a big deal to have immortality now.


[quote:9cee7]Why? When there is so much proof for it and virtually none for the other side, why do poeple insist that it doesn't exist?

Tradition. If religions in ancient times had beleived in the 'mortal soul', most people would beleive that today instead.

Precisely, Featherbop. Ain't Christianity strange? It will twist and mutilate the scriptures, it will call others liars, heretics, condemn them, call their beliefs as being 'spawned from the pits of hell', ignore the scriptures if necessary, just to uphold tradition.

How many Christians, I wonder, really DO know what the BIBLE and it alone actually has to say about the cherished tenets upheld so militantly by their particular 'mainstream' church? Very few I would say. It's so much easier to go along with the belief of the masses who in turn go along with the beliefs of their particular minister who in turn goes along with the beliefs of their particular denomination who in turn follow the beliefs that probably originated with the RCC. The Bible seems to be the least consulted book within Christendom unless used to condemn someone.[/quote:9cee7]

 

[noblej6]

Hi advent,


You brought up the meaning of the Hebrew word interpreted as eternal in the NIV Ecclesiastes 12:5.

This is Strongs definition. I think the interpreters of the NIV are doing alright here.
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

a) ancient time, long time (of past)

b) (of future)

1) for ever, always

2) continuous existence, perpetual

3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

********************************

And in this context, I don't think it can be properly interpreted to literaly mean 'eternal', especially when Job gave evidence of a future resurrection for the dead.

The resurrections of the dead are future at the time of the writing of this book.

What OT Scriptures are you using to justify this reasoning? Where in the OT does it state that the soul is 'immortal'? Additionally, where in the OT, does it say that the soul goes to be with God immediately after death?

The above is questioning my statement here:
******************************
I take the eternal home of the body to be the grave and the eternal home of the inner self, the spirit, the immortal soul to be with God.
**********************************

I take this from exactly the verses we have been talkng about. Ecclesiastes 12.

You ask where it says the soul goes to be with God.

Again that is Eccesiastes 12:7. Maybe you don't consider the soul to be the spirit. Fine, we can refer to it as the spirit if you prefer.

So far, Ecc. 12:7 only states that the spirit goes back to God, whom gave it. Where do you get (OT only) the soul goes to God after death?

To me soul and spirit are the same thing. It appears to me that in this conversation we better call it spirit to avoid confusion.

Various OT Scriptures state that the soul can die.

Yes.

That's not what Jesus meant. But, let's not jump the gun too quickly. Let's both establish what the OT Scriptures are saying about life after death, then we can move on to NT Scriptures.

Mind reading from 2000 years away is probably not very accurate. I'll stay with what He said as long as the obvious meaning fits with other scripture.

So, you think there's a typo in Ecc. 12:7, thus invalidating it's meaning? Really? Why? Why isn't it Biblically sound to use this verse to prove that the wicked dead immediately goes to be with God in Heaven? That's what it says, doesn't it?

Whoops, I never said there was a typo in Eccesiastes 12, the typo would have been in your statement which was:

Hypothetically, would this be Biblical to use Ecc. 12:7 as a proof text that the wicked dead goes to Heaven immediately after death? If not, why not?

When this was written nobody was going to heaven. Jesus said so in John 3.
So no that verse can not say that. It says it returns to the God that gave it, but it doesn't say how God deals with it or anything else about it.

Why don't you believe Moses went to Heaven immediately after death?Doesn't Ecc. 12:7 prove that he did go to Heaven immediately after death?

I don't believe Moses went to Heaven because Jesus said nobody had yet in John 3.
No it doesn't prove that anybody went to heaven.. It says the spirit returns to the God that gave it. It would appear that the spirit slept in the dust awaiting that resurrection of the dead we talked about. The body was decaying in the ground and the spirit was sleeping with it/ beside it/ in Abraham's bosom/in whatever place God cared to place it until that resurrection of the dead which occurs at the time of the Great tribulation/parousia.BUT apparently it wasn't heaven.

Didn't you just say earlier that the spirit, the inner self goes to be with God? Then, that has to include the wicked dead too, right? Ecc. 12:7 doesn't discriminate or specify.

As above. The wicked would be in this same place awaiting being raised to be condemned. I'll copy and paste the verses from an earlier post to you that I think you missed.
******************************
Prior to the parousia they....

Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

After Jesus makes arrangements, the dead in the graves...

John 5

29and come outâ€â€those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

So before the parousia the wicked dead AND the righteous lay asleep in the dust and at the parousia there is a resurrection of the dead where those who sleep in the dust are spiritually resurrected to Heaven or Hell. People no longer have to sleep in the dust aware of nothing when they suffer physical death after the time of the parousia ..
1 Cor 15
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

As we also can understand from here:
2 Cor 5
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

*****************************************

You had asked me;

What do you mean that the spirit will live again? When did it die?

The same time that the person did. That is the soul sleep. That is the spirit that returned to the God that gave it, that is the "many who sleep in the dust" Daniel 12, that is the ones who have fallen asleep, 1 Thess 4:13-18.

That is the spirit that will live again in a spiritual resurrection to Heaven at the time of the great tribulation/parousia. This process began way back there when Adam ate the forbidden fruit. The spiritual heavenly afterlife was lost to all mankind until Jesus came and gave the ultimate sacrifice to settle the sins of man and then Jesus had to reign for a certain time until the last enemy was destroyed.

That happened sometime before Paul wrote this:
2 Tim 1
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

Now let's jump into why Jesus said this:

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

AND meant something else.

no man has ascended......no man has ascended.

noble6

 

[noblej6]

Hi guibox,

he fundamental problem is people trying to translate the 'spirit' as the 'soul' which survives death as some ethereal thinking substance and goes to live in heaven awaiting a 'soul/body' reunification.

This thinking is so foreign to the bible that I can't fathom how people can miss the obvious thought that permeates throughout the entire bible: life after death is only realized and fulfilled at the resurrection of the dead, not at death.

The proof for the immortal soul that goes to heaven to live at death and comes down to inhabit a body is virtually non-existent with myriads of texts, culture and linguistic support that proves the opposite.

I agree, there are no verses which mention a re-uniting with a heavenly spirit to any decayed body in any earthly grave.

Life after death is realized at the resurrection of the dead......which generally is refeerred to as the first resurrection of Rev 20 and the resurrection at the time of the great tribulation/parousia.

There is no soul sleep after the parousia because after that believers go immediately to heaven at physical death.

Is this anywhere near what you are thinking?

noble6

 

[guibox]

There is no soul sleep after the parousia because after that believers go immediately to heaven at physical death.

Is this anywhere near what you are thinking?

noble6

Our problem, noble, is that we believe the parousia occurs at different times. To me, the parousia is at the end of the age where we are resurrected in physical, immortal body to forever be with the Lord. You believe that this occured already and that our 'soul' then goes to heaven at death.

To me the second coming and resurrection to eternal life is visible and physical. To you it is spiritual (it has to be because I haven't walked by the grave and seen someone climb out of their graves and then ascend to heaven).

We are arguing apples and oranges.

To me this just merely reinforces the fallacy of 'soul leaving the physical body at death and going to heaven). The bible doesn't teach it.

Though you do teach it in a unique way with your interpretation of the parousia, I'll give you that.

 

[noblej6]

Hi guibox,

Our problem, noble, is that we believe the parousia occurs at different times. To me, the parousia is at the end of the age where we are resurrected in physical, immortal body to forever be with the Lord. You believe that this occured already and that our 'soul' then goes to heaven at death

We probably believe the parousia happens at different times but I tried to leave that out of it.
The verses I quoted are still in relation to the parousia whenever it is.

To me the second coming and resurrection to eternal life is visible and physical. To you it is spiritual (it has to be because I haven't walked by the grave and seen someone climb out of their graves and then ascend to heaven

Yes, exactly. No I don't figure you ever will see anybody crawl up out of grave and walk away, but there again I have been trying to keep my comments connected just to the meaning of the sleep in the grave idea. People sleep in the grave from physical death until the resurrection of the dead at the time of the great trib/parousia. After that parousia people no longer sleep in the dust but are spiritually resurrected to heaven at death.

To me this just merely reinforces the fallacy of 'soul leaving the physical body at death and going to heaven). The bible doesn't teach it.

44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies;

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

5the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel

There are verses which show the heavenly eternal life. Show me the visible and physiacal eternal life.

Remember that things eternal are invisible.

2 Cor 4
18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

noble6

 

[guibox]

People sleep in the grave from physical death until the resurrection of the dead at the time of the great trib/parousia. After that parousia people no longer sleep in the dust but are spiritually resurrected to heaven at death.

To me this just merely reinforces the fallacy of 'soul leaving the physical body at death and going to heaven). The bible doesn't teach it.

44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies;

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

5the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel

There are verses which show the heavenly eternal life. Show me the visible and physiacal eternal life.

Remember that things eternal are invisible.

2 Cor 4
18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

noble6

But noble, one cannot be 'raised a spiritual body' and receive it in heaven when there is nothing to GET to heaven with at death. This 'spiritual body' is merely the changed, immortal, incorruptible flesh that arises from the grave at the second resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).

This is the same body spoken of by Paul in 2 Corinthians 5. It is not talking about a 'spiritual resurrection' at death. Either man raised physically in body, or he is some immortal soul that goes to heaven without a body. You cannot say that man gets a spiritual body at death. How is this possible when Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 make this clear that it is at the literal, visible second coming at the end of the ages?

 

[adventageous]

Hi advent,

You brought up the meaning of the Hebrew word interpreted as eternal in the NIV Ecclesiastes 12:5.

This is Strongs definition. I think the interpreters of the NIV are doing alright here.
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

a) ancient time, long time (of past)

b) (of future)

1) for ever, always

2) continuous existence, perpetual

3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

********************************

This is not a big issue to me. All I'm saying is that, sometimes the original word used should be considered when interpreting or understanding a text.

"For ever and ever" and even "everlasting" don't always equate to "forever w/o ceasing".

Thus, to my understanding, there eternal home (grave) is only temporary.

The resurrections of the dead are future at the time of the writing of this book.

Ah! So, the "Soul Sleep" doctrine does have some credibility.

What OT Scriptures are you using to justify this reasoning? Where in the OT does it state that the soul is 'immortal'? Additionally, where in the OT, does it say that the soul goes to be with God immediately after death?

I take this from exactly the verses we have been talkng about. Ecclesiastes 12.

You ask where it says the soul goes to be with God.

Again that is Eccesiastes 12:7. Maybe you don't consider the soul to be the spirit. Fine, we can refer to it as the spirit if you prefer.

What kind of honest Bible studying is that? You can't just take Ecc. 12:7 and say "...okay, it's referring to the soul...or...that I can use them interchangeably..." What about studying the words it's translated from? What about studying other verses that contain those words in the OT and comparing them?

So far, Ecc. 12:7 only states that the spirit goes back to God, whom gave it. Where do you get (OT only) the soul goes to God after death?

To me soul and spirit are the same thing. It appears to me that in this conversation we better call it spirit to avoid confusion.

And what OT Biblical scriptures give you this reasoning? What happened to applying the "line upon line, here a little, there a little" principle.

If it says "Spirit", then that's what we should based this study upon. I can't just say whimsically "...oh, there's the word spirit, let me call it soul instead..." That wouldn't be honest or thorough, if that was my studying method.

I think we should consider the definitions of spirit and soul, which up to this point, I have avoided.

Various OT Scriptures state that the soul can die.

Yes.

Then the soul isn't immortal.

When this was written nobody was going to heaven. Jesus said so in John 3.
So no that verse can not say that. It says it returns to the God that gave it, but it doesn't say how God deals with it or anything else about it.

I beg to differ. I believe Enoch, Elijah, and Moses were in Heaven at that time. But, I won't comment on what Jesus in John 3 until we have established, if possible, what the OT teachings say about "afterlife", whether it's immediate upon one's death or appointed at a certian time.

As above. The wicked would be in this same place awaiting being raised to be condemned. I'll copy and paste the verses from an earlier post to you that I think you missed.

******************************
Prior to the parousia they....

Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Again, wouldn't this give credence to the "Soul Sleep" doctrine?

Where does it say "spirit" or "soul" in Daniel 12:2? Doesn't it say "who"? What comprises this "who", that is the question?

Does the "who" imply "body", "spirit", and "soul"? Or just the "body"? Because, as far as Ecc. 12:7 goes, there is a separation at death. The spirit isn't where the body is, right?

Now let's jump into why Jesus said this:

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

AND meant something else.

no man has ascended......no man has ascended.

noble6

Not until we established what the OT teachings are saying. We will get to the NT later.

Honestly, I still do not understand your position as far as what the OT Scriptures teaches on this subject. Is it "Soul Sleep?" Or is "Immediate ascension or descension into Heaven or Hell?"

I would like to establish this point first before we move on to the NT.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Exactly, adventageous. Just what IS your take on the 'soul sleep' issue, noble?

 

[noblej6]

Hi guibox,

But noble, one cannot be 'raised a spiritual body'

Spiritual, heavenly, invisible ...body. That is what they call it in the bible so that is what I call it.

Here is the verse:

44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

It spells it out word for word right there. So it definately can be raised a spiritual body. Raised here means resurrected, spiritually resurrected to Heaven. Heavenly body which is eternal which is invisible.

and receive it in heaven when there is nothing to GET to heaven with at death.

Consider this. I don't mean this to be the exact procedure but it is the only physical phenomenom I can think of to explain this. When you dream at night you see people, touch people talk to people, yet anyone watching you sleep during that dream sees none of this , is unaware that anything is being experienced by you as you lie there sleeping. You saw that body in the dream, you could touch it and you were there thru the whole thing. Tell me, what did your own body look like? Where was it?

This 'spiritual body' is merely the changed, immortal, incorruptible flesh that arises from the grave at the second resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).

I have never seen anywhere in any bible where any flesh rises from the grave of common man. The bottom line is that the life after the physical death is eternal. Here is what the bible says about that which is eternal.

2 Cor 4
18while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

This is the same body spoken of by Paul in 2 Corinthians 5. It is not talking about a 'spiritual resurrection' at death. Either man raised physically in body, or he is some immortal soul that goes to heaven without a body. You cannot say that man gets a spiritual body at death.

What else can explain it? What else fits all the scripture as written? Yes, I definately say man gets a spiritual, Heavenly, invisible to mortal man body at death.

John 3
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I see this as the end of the physical earthly body or the natural body physiclly dies and we are 'born again' a spiritual being. Not the generally accepoted meaning of 'born again' as used today, but that IS a man made definition.

Read the verse again and ask yourself if a living born again person can enter the kingdom of God at will. No they can't if the Kingdom of God is the same as the Kingdom of Heaven because flesh and blood can not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

How is this possible when Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 make this clear that it is at the literal, visible second coming at the end of the ages?

I have never seen anything in either of those sets of verses that indicate a visible second coming of Jesus or a physical resurrection of mankind.

When do you say the end of the ages is?

Biblically it is here:

Hebrews 9
26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

OR in the KJV
26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself

The end of the ages or end of the world (Greek-aion) was during the time of the cross. Some like to say the end of the ages just happens to be very long, some say this and some say that, but what is important is what the bible says.

Here aree more indications that the coming of the son of man is not visible to the living.

The transfiguration was this:

28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

So what were those three men going to see? They were going to see the son of man coming in His Kingdom. God put on a vision for them to see what the coming of the son would be like. That is what the transfiguration was, Jesus being totally glorified, made the whitest white.

The key here is that in all of history only three men will be alive to see the coming of the son. Everyone else will be dead when they see it.

I'lll show another example.

Rev 1
7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

It clearly states that every eye will see Him coming,

Yet we have these verses:

21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

So here we have the situation of every eye seeing Jesus Christ coming on the clouds, but nobody ever says anything about it. If anybody does say something about it, it is not to be believed.
The only way every eye can see Jesus and nobody ever says anything about it is if every body is dead when they see Jesu coming. Dead men don't talk.

There are some of my understandings from the word. Feel free to question any of it you care to. If it doesn't stand up to scrutiny it ain't worth keepin'.

noble6

 

[noblej6]

Hi adventageous,

Ah! So, the "Soul Sleep" doctrine does have some credibility.

How many times have I said that? Of course the soul/spirit/inner man/whatever was asleep aware of nothing prior to the parousia.

That is what I have been saying all along.

That is what the verses I quoted indicate.

What kind of honest Bible studying is that? You can't just take Ecc. 12:7 and say "...okay, it's referring to the soul...or...that I can use them interchangeably..." What about studying the words it's translated from? What about studying other verses that contain those words in the OT and comparing them?

I have done all that....many times. Somehow you have a specific meaning for soul and a specific meaning for spirit/spiritual etc. I don't, I call the spirit the immortal soul. That seems to be causing confusion so let's go with whatever your meanings are.

Then the soul isn't immortal.

Technically no, but there is only one entity that can kill it.

I beg to differ. I believe Enoch, Elijah, and Moses were in Heaven at that time.

Jesus said no one has ever gone to Heaven.....I'll go with that.

until we have established, if possible, what the OT teachings say about "afterlife", whether it's immediate upon one's death or appointed at a certian time.

In the OT it is appointed at a crertain time, here:

Daniel 12
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Again, wouldn't this give credence to the "Soul Sleep" doctrine?

Sure would if soul sleep means that the dead lay in the ground aware of nothing. The spirit may have gone to the custody of God and be elsewhere for all I know, but at any rate there is no thought procesesses or feelings of peace expereinced by the dead.

Where does it say "spirit" or "soul" in Daniel 12:2? Doesn't it say "who"? What comprises this "who", that is the question?

It doesn't say anything about spirit or soul in verse two. For that you have to go to other scripture.

Does the "who" imply "body", "spirit", and "soul"? Or just the "body"? Because, as far as Ecc. 12:7 goes, there is a separation at death. The spirit isn't where the body is, right?

That's the way I would like to take it, but nothing there defines that.

Honestly, I still do not understand your position as far as what the OT Scriptures teaches on this subject. Is it "Soul Sleep?" Or is "Immediate ascension or descension into Heaven or Hell?"

In the Old Testement the soul/spirit/ inner self/whatever is aware of nothing in death. It sleeps, is the word the bible uses. At the time of the great tribulation/ parousia there is a resurrection and those sleeping immortal souls/ordinary soul spirits are spiritually resurrected to Heaven. Anyone alive at the time of the parousia does not have to 'sleep' after they die because they are instantly judged and sent to Heaven or Hell.

The reason I have little trouble with verses in the NT which seem to conflict with the sleeping verses of the Old is that I see that parousia as happening in the first century.

noble6

 

[SputnikBoy]

The reason I have little trouble with verses in the NT which seem to conflict with the sleeping verses of the Old is that I see that parousia as happening in the first century.

Hi noble. Why do you not believe that 'the parousia' as you call it doesn't occur at the second coming of Jesus?

 

[noblej6]

Hi sputnik,

Hi noble. Why do you not believe that 'the parousia' as you call it doesn't occur at the second coming of Jesus?

I see the parousia as he origonal coming of the son of man on the clouds, which is also the origonal second coming.with some extras. Thst is the time of the resurrectons of the dead and the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven as well. All those things we read about like the revealing of the man of lawlessness occur at that time. That parousia was also the time of the judgemnt of those who died prior to the Kingdom of Heaven or that parousia.

After that origonal parousia the judgment of each individual occurs after their personal death. Such as for you and me.

Hebrews 9
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Jesus, alone judges......

John 5
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

Believers go to heaven after death....

2 cor 5
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

It has to happen immediately because

John 11
25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

There had to be a place for Martha to go to to 'live' because she did in fact die. She physically died and the earthly body perished. That leaves only the spiritual body of 1 Cor 15 which is a heavenly situaltion.

One second coming per person at the time of their personal physical death.

That works for those who died in the rebellion of Judea in 70 AD, that works for Mother Teresa, that works for all those who happen to be alive when this planet is desolved in great heat. 2 Peter 3:10.

That's why I always refer to the coming of the son on the clouds which is immediately after the great tribulation as the parousia and my meeting with Jesus Christ as a second coming. I didn't see Jesus when He came in 70 AD, I never seen Him when He came for Martha. Yet He said He would return a second time...

Hebrews 9
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

He said He would return a second time and He hasn't yet so my experience of the second coming is yet future. Martha has to have already had her turn or else Jesus could not say," you will never die."

noble6

 

[SputnikBoy]

Whew noble, you've lost me. Need this REALLY be that complicated?

Why do you have a problem believing that when Jesus told Martha that she will never die he was talking about her eternal spiritual state? Her physical body is in the grave (metaphorically 'sleeping') and eternal life (never dying) will be realized at the second coming of Jesus. This concept in no way disputes what Jesus told her. He told her that she would never die and she didn't ...not spiritually anyway. And that's the part that counts.

 

[noblej6]

Hi sputnik,

Why do you have a problem believing that when Jesus told Martha that she will never die he was talking about her eternal spiritual state?

That is what I see there. Martha 'lives' on in the spiritual body/life/whatever in the spiritual, invisible, heaven.

Her physical body is in the grave (metaphorically 'sleeping') and eternal life (never dying) will be realized at the second coming of Jesus.

Yes, and where we differ is that I see Martha's second coming experience to be at her personal death. She is BORN AGAIN a spiritual being. John 3. That physical body in the grave is over and done with, only the spiritual body remains. The spiritual body is the invisible, imperishable, immortal, heavenly body that only other spirits can see. The physical body decays and returns to dust.

This concept in no way disputes what Jesus told her. He told her that she would never die and she didn't ...not spiritually anyway. And that's the part that counts.

Oh, but those before the parousia did 'sleep' spiritually as well as die physically. They lay in the grave aware of nothing. After the parousia the believers are able to have eternal heavenly life immediately.

The soul/spirit/inner self/whatever was 'dead' too, that is what Adam lost for us and Jesus regained............eternal, heavenly life after death. That can be had by believer's now when they personally suffer physical death. In Daniel's time they slept in the dust. Daniel 12:1-3.

Many years ago when I had only read the bible a couple of tiems, I also thought there was some world wide occurance where Jesus floated over the surface of the earth to do....whatever. After 40 more years of reading I don't see that in scripture anymore.
Please feel free to poke holes in this. As I said there is no use holding on to an interpretation if it isn't biblical.

noble6

 

[SputnikBoy]

I like your attitude, noble. You're willing to admit that you don't know everything and could be in error. Since I don't know everything either I'd like to invite others to add their input to the topic.