Grubal Muruch
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There are those who will receive "eternal life" with God and those who will be cast into the lake of fire according to Scripture. Any thoughts??
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Just who will end up in the lake of fire, and why?
- Thread starter Grubal Muruch
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Anyone whose name is not written in the book of life, which appears to be based directly on what they have done.
Nick
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What Free said.
Is there anything particular you'd like to discuss about it. And please can it not be Calvinistic in nature?
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Asyncritus
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So salvation is by works?
Grubal Muruch
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Nope!!!
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It would seem that way.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (NKJV)
Also very relevant are the letters to the churches:
Rev 2:1 "To the angel of the church of Ephesus write, 'These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:
Rev 2:2 "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;
Rev 2:3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name's sake and have not become weary.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.
Rev 2:6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Rev 2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." ' (NKJV)
Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, 'These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:
Rev 2:9 "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Rev 2:11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." (NKJV)
Rev 2:12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write, 'These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword:
Rev 2:13 "I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.
Rev 2:15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Rev 2:16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
Rev 2:17 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it." ' (NKJV)
Rev 2:18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, 'These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:
Rev 2:19 "I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first.
Rev 2:20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.
Rev 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
Rev 2:23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
Rev 2:24 "Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden.
Rev 2:25 But hold fast what you have till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
Rev 2:27 'HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON; THEY SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES LIKE THE POTTER'S VESSELS'— as I also have received from My Father;
Rev 2:28 and I will give him the morning star.
Rev 2:29 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ' (NKJV)
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Rev 3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, 'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
Rev 3:4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Rev 3:6 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ' (NKJV)
Rev 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write, 'These things says He who is holy, He who is true, "HE WHO HAS THE KEY OF DAVID, HE WHO OPENS AND NO ONE SHUTS, AND SHUTS AND NO ONE OPENS":
Rev 3:8 "I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
Rev 3:13 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ' (NKJV)
Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
Rev 3:15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—
Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Rev 3:22 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ' " (NKJV)
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
Rev 3:4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Rev 3:6 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ' (NKJV)
Rev 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write, 'These things says He who is holy, He who is true, "HE WHO HAS THE KEY OF DAVID, HE WHO OPENS AND NO ONE SHUTS, AND SHUTS AND NO ONE OPENS":
Rev 3:8 "I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
Rev 3:13 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ' (NKJV)
Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
Rev 3:15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—
Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Rev 3:22 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ' " (NKJV)
A
Asyncritus
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Glad we agree on that point!
I think that Free, and everybody else who interprets this passage in the Revelation, makes a severe mistake, which lands them unwittingly and unwillingly in the 'salvation-by-works' camp.
Let me explain it with careful attention to what is actually said.
Rev 20.11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
This is, of course, Jesus appearing as the Judge appointed by God.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened:
Observe: this is a pile of 'books' which are opened.
and another book was opened, which is the book of life:
This is a separate, SINGLE book, which is the book of life.
and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
These people are those who think that their works will save them. There is a very Jewish flavour about that statement: they believed that their works (of the Law) would save them. But they are not alone in this - many think so.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Those who are NOT in the book of life are destroyed.
Those who are in the book are saved.
Which book is this?
Re 21:27 ...but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
In other words, those believe on Him, are in HIS book of life. They DO NOT believe that their works will save them.
In fact, the verse says expressly:
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Those are doing verbs. Works don't save. Faith does.
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It's interesting that you would use such a phrase as "Let me explain it with careful attention to what is actually said," and then proceed to eisegete the text. There is absolutely zero reason from the text to come to this understanding from the text:
"These people are those who think that their works will save them. There is a very Jewish flavour about that statement: they believed that their works (of the Law) would save them. But they are not alone in this - many think so."
This simply isn't in the text. It clearly states: "And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books." These books appear to be accounts of the works by which the dead are then judged. There really is no other meaning there. And certainly there is no mention of the Law.
This is also eisegesis: "In other words, those believe on Him, are in HIS book of life. They DO NOT believe that their works will save them."
Again, there is absolutely nothing in the text that those whose names are written in the book of life are those who "do not believe that their works will save them." That is to beg the question.
And what is this error that you mentioned? That the books and book of life are separate books? That is obvious. What the letters to the seven churches show is that it is possible to have one's name blotted out from the book of life.
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Asyncritus
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Before I proceed, can I ask how you account for the existence (which I pointed out perfectly clearly, and which you seem to have missed) of TWO distinct groups of book?
a. The Book of Life
b. The 'books' of works.
The singular 'book' and plural 'books' are sufficient to indicate a wide difference.
Thanks
I think there's a third option only valid for the Church of England and some others.
"A REPORT by the Church of England’s doctrine commission states that hell is not a fiery furnace after all; rather, it is an abstract place of nothingness. “There are many reasons for this change,†the report explains. “But amongst them have been the moral protest from both within and without the Christian faith against a religion of fear, and a growing sense that the picture of God who consigned millions to eternal torment was far removed from the revelation of God’s love in Christ."
Grubal Muruch
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You seem to be aligned to what I believe. However, when you mentioned, "Those who are NOT in the book of life are destroyed." Are you saying this "grouping of unbelievers" are "annihilated" or are sentenced to eternal punishment??
Grubal Muruch
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Free says----Again, there is absolutely nothing in the text that those whose names are written in the book of life are those who "do not believe that their works will save them." That is to beg the question.
Grubal---- If I interpret what his saying correctly, the ones written in the "book of life" realized their salvation wasn't based upon "works" and realized they could only be saved through God's Grace through their faith, and if that is what he is saying, then I concur...
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Asyncritus
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You have entirely missed the overriding theme of the letters you quote.
The 'overcoming', which recurs frequently, should have given you the biggest indication of all.
IN EVERY CASE, it refers to the abandonment of Christ in favour of a false religion of one sort or another.
Thus:
Question, overcomes what?
This:
Rev 2:2 "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;
Patience? What's that? That dogged persistence in continuing in thre faith of Christ, no matter what.
False apostles? Who do what? Preach a different gospel, a different Christ.
This passage gives the whole game away. These Jews were those who pursued Paul and the apostles through the whole NT, preaching a nother Christ, killing and attempting to kill believers, dragging them away from Christ back to the law of Moses.
Suffer for the name of Christ and absolutely and stedfastly refuse to leave Him.
Here is the theme again. These guys stedfastly refused to abandon Christ's name, and were being killed for it.
Despite the above commendation, there were those who went after the fake apostles and prophets, into the immoralities, and worse, into idolatry, and abandoned Christ in the process.
This follows quite logically from the foregoing.
Here it is again. The evil works which He so roundly condemns, are the abandonment of His gospel, and a return to their old religions of idolatry.
As Jezebel of old led Israel to abandon Jehovah and go after Baal, the same was happening here. They were abandoning Christ in favour of idol worship and it's blandishments.
Jezebel, I may add, was the wife of the king of Israel, and a jewess by virtue of that fact. As shown above, the Jews were the prime movers in drawing away believers from Christ.
Rev 2:24 "Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine,
[which doctrine? That these idols can save you, not Christ]
What is the work of God?
Jn 6.29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
So those in the book of life are those who believed in Him, and totally refuse to abandon Him, for whatever reason. As Paul said:
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You may have forgotten Free, that there is only one sin that will finish anybody: and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
So whatever the works are, that these disciples were NOT doing, resulting in these threats, they amount to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. And how does one do that?
Hebrews 10 tells us:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Can you see that this is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
But what is it that this man does to incur that condemnation?
25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh.
That is to say, returning to the Law of Moses and abandoning Christ altogether as our Saviour.
The 'overcoming', which recurs frequently, should have given you the biggest indication of all.
IN EVERY CASE, it refers to the abandonment of Christ in favour of a false religion of one sort or another.
Thus:
Question, overcomes what?
This:
Rev 2:2 "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars;
Patience? What's that? That dogged persistence in continuing in thre faith of Christ, no matter what.
False apostles? Who do what? Preach a different gospel, a different Christ.
This passage gives the whole game away. These Jews were those who pursued Paul and the apostles through the whole NT, preaching a nother Christ, killing and attempting to kill believers, dragging them away from Christ back to the law of Moses.
Suffer for the name of Christ and absolutely and stedfastly refuse to leave Him.
Here is the theme again. These guys stedfastly refused to abandon Christ's name, and were being killed for it.
Despite the above commendation, there were those who went after the fake apostles and prophets, into the immoralities, and worse, into idolatry, and abandoned Christ in the process.
This follows quite logically from the foregoing.
Here it is again. The evil works which He so roundly condemns, are the abandonment of His gospel, and a return to their old religions of idolatry.
As Jezebel of old led Israel to abandon Jehovah and go after Baal, the same was happening here. They were abandoning Christ in favour of idol worship and it's blandishments.
Jezebel, I may add, was the wife of the king of Israel, and a jewess by virtue of that fact. As shown above, the Jews were the prime movers in drawing away believers from Christ.
Rev 2:24 "Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine,
[which doctrine? That these idols can save you, not Christ]
What is the work of God?
Jn 6.29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
So those in the book of life are those who believed in Him, and totally refuse to abandon Him, for whatever reason. As Paul said:
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You may have forgotten Free, that there is only one sin that will finish anybody: and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
So whatever the works are, that these disciples were NOT doing, resulting in these threats, they amount to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. And how does one do that?
Hebrews 10 tells us:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Can you see that this is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
But what is it that this man does to incur that condemnation?
25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh.
That is to say, returning to the Law of Moses and abandoning Christ altogether as our Saviour.
Grubal Muruch
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Sounds like "religious political correctness"
A
Asyncritus
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There are 3 groups of people who die: and these comments are based on Dan 12 .
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Group 1 Since he says 'MANY', I assume that not all will be raised. The non-raised are Group 1.
Group 2 are the redeemed, who receive eternal life, and interestingly, are described in 12.1 as "thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."
Group 3 are those who are raised to punishment: shame and everlasting contempt. This does not necessarily indicate 'eternity' because Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the vengeance of 'eternal fire.' Jude 1.7
They no longer exist, their destruction is eternal, but they aren't there burning now. They are annihilated, fire having been the destructive agent. The same will happen to the wicked and disobedient - they will receive graduated punishment:
(Lk 12.47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes) and be annihilated.
Grubal Muruch
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I wish it was that easy to "blow off" eternal punishment and eternal separation from God. I wish I was as confident as you, but, alas, I'm not...
Exactly right. AMEN