Justification and Sanctification

[FreeGrace]

Got questions!!!
Got anything more liberal?
LOL

I see that there is no interest in what proper exegesis is. Which does fit your agenda quite well.

 

[FreeGrace]

PJ

Did you not know that
Whosoever does not mean whosoever?
The world does not mean everyone?
All does not really mean all? It really means some.

Bizarre indeed !

You've described Calvinism quite well.

 

[PeterJens]

I gave verses that absolutely STATE the FACT.
Only the very slow ones, for sure.
Apparently the very slow theologians have missed ALL the verses that describe The Father, the Son, and the Spirit as God.

My friend, I hope you can cope with me saying this.
"absolutely" "state" "fact" - these are very closed comments, shutting out other views, or arguments,
not in reality, but in how the writer wants things to be accepted.

In any debate, we are just putting our perspective, hoping people agree with us and persuading others
to investigate further and then maybe agree.

In cults or dictatorial groups, you either agree with the teaching, or you are not part of the group.
Loyalty is defined on this basis. It means the authority can say what they like, because they are
the definers of truth.

Did Jesus ever take this approach? No, He set puzzles in terms of the parables, that dwell in ones
mind and work through relationship realities which lead one to the truth.

So who is your neighbour? The assaulted man on a road, who appears to be your cultural enemy
but is in need. And how do we show love? By meeting their need for protection and provision.

What is the Kingdom of heaven? The seed and the sower, the tenant farmers etc.
Who is Jesus? One discovers by walking and listening to Him.

So I get the feeling some are not following Jesus's way but creating a new way, with facts, absolutes,
things you must just accept or be rejected. Which way are we called to follow?

 

[PeterJens]

so which one of you has the "proper" exegesis ????

It is for the reader to discover. Our teacher is Jesus, not man, and the authority is the word of God and the
Holy Spirit working in the believers heart. Godly men can be miss-understood and enthusiasm not applied
correctly, and we are all equal in the eyes of God, testifying to His word and work in our hearts. Amen.

 

[ezra]

Godly men can be miss-understood and enthusiasm not applied
correctly,

yes and the enthusiasm of the reader/ hearer are less than desired . preached yesterday morning on the subject of not for sale . naboth refused to sell/compromise his inheritance . we allow out side sources to influence us.....the congregation was very still one of those pull your boots on and wade out let it go . honestly it seems as there is a argument over who said it best

 

[FreeGrace]

My friend, I hope you can cope with me saying this.
"absolutely" "state" "fact" - these are very closed comments, shutting out other views, or arguments,
not in reality, but in how the writer wants things to be accepted.

In any debate, we are just putting our perspective, hoping people agree with us and persuading others
to investigate further and then maybe agree.

In cults or dictatorial groups, you either agree with the teaching, or you are not part of the group.
Loyalty is defined on this basis. It means the authority can say what they like, because they are
the definers of truth.

Did Jesus ever take this approach? No, He set puzzles in terms of the parables, that dwell in ones
mind and work through relationship realities which lead one to the truth.

So who is your neighbour? The assaulted man on a road, who appears to be your cultural enemy
but is in need. And how do we show love? By meeting their need for protection and provision.

What is the Kingdom of heaven? The seed and the sower, the tenant farmers etc.
Who is Jesus? One discovers by walking and listening to Him.

So I get the feeling some are not following Jesus's way but creating a new way, with facts, absolutes,
things you must just accept or be rejected. Which way are we called to follow?

I'll just ask a few questions.

What did Jesus say about those He gives eternal life?

OK, I'll tell you. From John 10:28 He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

When did Jesus say a person possesses eternal life?

OK, I'll tell you. From John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:47 and 11:25-27, He said those who believe possess eternal life.

Any questions for me, regarding these 2 answers to my questions to you?

 

[PeterJens]

I'll just ask a few questions.
What did Jesus say about those He gives eternal life?
OK, I'll tell you. From John 10:28 He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.
When did Jesus say a person possesses eternal life?
OK, I'll tell you. From John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:47 and 11:25-27, He said those who believe possess eternal life.
Any questions for me, regarding these 2 answers to my questions to you?

My friend, repeating the same verses and not answering the point, does not change anything.
I can say all cars can travel on roads. If we agree what a car is and what a road is,this makes sense.
Jesus declares His sheep shall not perish, those who qualify as believers will have eternal life.

We all believe and accept this, but have differing views on what a believer is, and who the sheep are,
and when will we know fulfillment of the promises.

Now if you can accept this is actually the case as a factual statement, with the open ended implications
we have progress.

What I have found is some believers go a lot further, and declare some as unbelievers without specifying
why, and then attempt to get a confession of hypocracy out of them.

For me the problem with this is judgmentalism, putting people in boxes and then pushing them doctrinally
off the edge of heaven and hell, but with no biblical justification or definition of sin.

After digging deeper, what I found was just continual labelling and accusations. If one wants a sign of
spiritual problems and condemnation, there is nothing bigger than this, especially when the same group
want to declare how sinful they are and the sins which everyday they have not resolved.

7> But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8> If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9> If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:7-9
The above talks about being purified, confessing, being forgiven.
It is active, walking in the light today, confessing sin today and being righteous.
This is the process of sanctification.

So walking in darkness, not repenting of sin, and saying one is forgiven for things not repented of is not Gods
way. This is the process of being lost in sin.

 

[ezra]

ever feel like you 2 was hitting a brick wall lol

 

[PeterJens]

ever feel like you 2 was hitting a brick wall lol

I am happy to define the brick wall, if it exists, and explore how far it reaches and where it progresses
from and to. It is important because this teaching and approach is prevalent in the church, and we face
it often, but maybe not fully understanding it or being able to respond.

 

[FreeGrace]

My friend, repeating the same verses and not answering the point, does not change anything.

This is quite correct. The truth NEVER changes.

What is hopeful is that truth may CHANGE some minds.

I can say all cars can travel on roads. If we agree what a car is and what a road is,this makes sense.

Here we go again with irrelevant comments.

Jesus declares His sheep shall not perish, those who qualify as believers will have eternal life.

Do you know what qualifies one to be a believer? Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

Why the need to try to dodge the issue here about what Jesus said of recipients of eternal life?

It's real clear. Jesus is the One who gives the gift of eternal life. And He gives this gift to those who believe, when they believe. And the result of being a recipient of eternal life is that the recipient shall never perish.

This is as clear as can be stated. Once given eternal life, the recipient cannot perish.

We all believe and accept this, but have differing views on what a believer is, and who the sheep are,
and when will we know fulfillment of the promises.

Why would that be so, since the Bible is clear enough on "what a believer is" and "who the sheep are". This seems more just a diversion tactic to avoid the obvious; that once given eternal life, that one can never perish.

Which means salvation is guaranteed to recipients. OSAS.

Now if you can accept this is actually the case as a factual statement, with the open ended implications
we have progress.

There is nothing open ended here.

What I have found is some believers go a lot further, and declare some as unbelievers without specifying
why, and then attempt to get a confession of hypocracy out of them.

Why, oh why, is the opinions of others so all important? Please just FOCUS on what the Scriptures say. That is what I'm doing.

It seems you're way too distracted by what others may think. Who cares!!

For me the problem with this is judgmentalism, putting people in boxes and then pushing them doctrinally
off the edge of heaven and hell, but with no biblical justification or definition of sin.

What does the "definition of sin" have to do with anything??? The Bible has already declared that "both Jew and Gentile are ALL under sin" *Rom 3:9), and that "ALL have sinned" (3:23). So, because all have sinned, we're all under the SAME condemnation.

Further, the Bible says that Christ died for all sin (1 John 2:2) and Heb 7-10 (the words "once for all" found 9x).

So, sin isn't the issue. All are sinners, and Christ died (paid for) all sin. So let's stop being distracted by these unnecessary issues and focus on what Jesus said about eternal security, which it seems to me isn't what you want to discuss.

After digging deeper, what I found was just continual labelling and accusations.

This has zero bearing on what Jesus said about eternal security. Please FOCUS on what He said, and ignore what others think.

If one wants a sign of spiritual problems and condemnation, there is nothing bigger than this, especially when the same group
want to declare how sinful they are and the sins which everyday they have not resolved.

Non relevant distraction.

 

[WIP]

Closing for review.