JW Book: “What Can the Bible Teach Us?”

[TrevorL]

Towards the end of 2019 I obtained a small JW book “What Can the Bible Teach Us?” I spoke to two JW ladies who had a magazine and booklet stand. I raised the subject of the return of Jesus based on Acts 1:11 and Acts 3:19-21, and they raised the subject of the 144,000 and a few other topics. The book is similar to an earlier book that I had received some years ago “What Does the Bible Really Teach?” The new book is basically a revision of the old, with similar chapter titles, while the new has endnotes replacing different appendix notes in the old.

In general I agree with much of what is stated, but some JW ideas are introduced without any Biblical support, and these ideas simply reflect the environment and teaching of the JWs. I invite discussion on the following brief comments and the JW view.

Chapter 1: Who is God?
Page 12: “God has told us that his name is Jehovah.” Comment: It is generally recognised that YHWH is better understood as Yahweh. Please consider Rotherham’s introduction and the JW Book: Aid to Bible Understanding especially pages 884-885 which is now been mainly supressed by the new JW publications. I agree with the future tense.
Page 17: “God wants us to have the best life possible.” Comment: This is true ultimately, but God subjects us to many circumstances now to develop us and some of these trials can be very difficult.

Chapter 2 The Bible – A Book from God
Page 22: “In Matthew chapters 5 to 7, we read very good advice that Jesus gave on how to be happy …”. Comment: Similar to the previous comment. Jesus speaks about being blessed, especially in the future and the word “happy” can have a different range of meaning.

Chapter 3 What is God’s Purpose for Humans?
Page 30: “Satan .. made it look as though the snake was talking.” Comment: The Bible states that the serpent was discerning and spoke Genesis 3:1. The JW NWT tries to hide this by translating Genesis 3:1 as “cautious”, but the KJV “subtil” and most modern translations “crafty” represent the correct translations.
Page 38: “We die because we inherited sin from Adam.” Comment: We do not inherit sin, but we inherit the effects or consequences of Adam’s sin. A baby is not a sinner.

Chapter 4 Who is Jesus Christ?
Page 40 Endnote 12: “God created Jesus before everything else.” Comment: I do not accept this as I believe that Jesus did not pre-exist his conception and birth. Jesus was and is a human, now glorified, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.
Page 51: “Luke 1:30-35 Jehovah sent Jesus to the earth.” Comment: Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:30-35 speak about the conception and anticipated birth of Jesus. God was his father through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[TrevorL]

In my opening post I said “In general I agree with much of what is stated” in chapters 1-4 of the JW book “What Can the Bible Teach Us?”, but there are many items in chapter 5 which I find difficult and that I do not agree with.

Chapter 5: The Ransom – God’s greatest gift
Page 54: “None of us could ever pay the ransom for the perfect life that Adam lost. The ransom that had to be paid was another perfect human life. The ransom that had to have the same value as the life that Adam lost.” Comment: This is the basis of the JW understanding of the concept of the ransom. The word ransom is used in the Scriptures, but it is only one aspect of a larger subject. The reasoning behind the JW concept ignores many important aspects of the redemption available in Jesus Christ. Some of the additional comments in this chapter shows some of the logic used to come to their conclusion.

Page 54: “Jehovah transferred Jesus from heaven to earth, and Jesus was born a perfect human, without sin Luke 1:35”. Comment: Jesus was not transferred from heaven, neither was he born a perfect human. Jesus was born as a descendant of Adam through Mary and shared our fallen human nature Romans 8:3 and Hebrews 2:14. Nevertheless he never sinned and he overcame sin and all its effects.

Page 55: “Three days after that, Jehovah brought Jesus back to life, not as a human, but as a spirit person.” Comment: Jesus is still a human, but a glorified human. Their statement vaguely introduces the JW unique idea that the human body of Jesus was not raised but somehow preserved separately. The sentence placed upon Adam and his descendants of returning to the dust Genesis 3:19 was reversed in Jesus when his body saw no corruption Acts 2:30-32 and God quickened his dead body after three days and God raised Jesus from the dead and gave him immortal life.

Page 59 – Endnote 16: “The Memorial: Those who will rule with Jesus in heaven eat the bread and drink the wine. Those who have the hope of living forever on earth respectfully attend the Memorial but do not eat the bread or drink the wine.” Comment: This introduces the unique JW teaching concerning the 144,000. I asked the ladies when they raised the subject of the 144.00 and they stated that there are none of the 144,000 in their meeting. As a result none of the JWs partake of the emblems. My understanding is that all the believers should remember Christ’s death and resurrection by means of the emblems each week. JWs only “celebrate” this once a year and pass the emblems along the row, and no one participates, at their meeting at least, proving that the majority of JWs are not in fellowship with Christ.

 

[TrevorL]

I considered Chapters 1-4 of the JW book “What Can the Bible Teach Us?” in the Opening Post and Chapter 5 in Reply #1. My initial focus will be to highlight the items which I find difficult and that I do not agree with.
Chapter 6: Where do we go when we die?
I agree with most of this chapter as together with JWs and SDAs, as I believe in the resurrection at the return of Jesus and I do not believe that we have an immortal soul that goes to heaven or hell at death. The JW concept that the serpent in Genesis 3 is somehow Satan recurs in this chapter, three times on page 65 and once on page 66:
Page 66: “Satan said that Eve wouldn’t die, so Eve ate some of the fruit and then gave some to her husband.” Comment: The serpent was one of the creatures that was created as related in Genesis 1 and had the ability to discern and speak.

Chapter 7: There will be a resurrection!
Again as I do not believe in immortal souls, I share some aspects of the resurrection with the JWs but some of their unique concepts become apparent in this chapter.
Page 79: “The unrighteous” includes billions of people who did not have the opportunity to know Jehovah. Even though they died, Jehovah hasn’t forgotten them, and they will have the opportunity to learn about him and serve him. Comment: My understanding is that only some are resurrected, the faithful and unfaithful, representing those who have heard the gospel, whether they have responded or not, and whether they have been faithful to the gospel. There is no second chance for those who died without faith in the Gospel.

Page 79: “The Bible also tells us that some people will live in heaven. When someone is resurrected to heaven, he is not brought to life as human with a human body. He is resurrected to life in heaven as spirit person. … Jesus was not resurrected with a human body.” Comment: This is starting to introduce the JW concept of the 144,000, specifically mentioned on page 80. The JW view is also based upon the idea that the body of Jesus was not resurrected but preserved. Acts 2 clearly teaches that the tomb was empty, and this is because of the bodily resurrection of Jesus. I believe in the resurrection of the human body of the faithful, they will then be changed to immortal bodies and they will be upon the earth with Jesus when he returns.

Chapter 8: What is God’s Kingdom?
I share with JWs that there will be a Kingdom for 1000 years, but differ in many details.
Page 83: “We have learned that God’s name is Jehovah.” Comment: I suggest that Jehovah is an incorrect representation of YHWH. Yahweh is a better rendition, refer Rotherham’s introduction in his Bible translation.

Page 84: “Forty days after his resurrection, Jesus returned to heaven. Eventually, Jehovah appointed him as King of the Kingdom Acts 2:33. God’s government will rule over the earth from heaven Revelation 11:15.” Comment: The following two references give a different view to what the JWs deduct here.
Acts 2:36 (KJV): Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Revelation 5:9–10 (KJV): 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Jesus was already appointed as both Lord and Christ and the faithful will reign on earth not from heaven.

Page 91: “For many years before 1914, a group of sincere Christians understood that it would be an important year in Bible prophecy. World events since 1914 have proved that they were correct. Jesus began to rule as King in that year.” Comment: This introduces the unique JW view that Jesus started to rule in 1914. The Bible teaches that Jesus will return to earth and then reign from Jerusalem for the 1000 years Acts 1:11, 3:19-21, Isaiah 2:1-4, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14.

 

[TrevorL]

I considered Chapters 1-4 of the JW book “What Can the Bible Teach Us?” in the Opening Post, Chapter 5 in Reply #1 and Chapters 6-8 in Reply #2. Again my initial focus will be to highlight the items which I find difficult and that I do not agree with.
Chapter 9: Is the end of the world near?
I would agree with the title and some aspects of the answer given in general. Yes, the end of the present era is near, because Jesus will soon return to replace the present kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God.
Page 95: “In Chapter 8 we learned that Jesus became King in heaven in 1914 Daniel 7:13-14. The book of Revelation tells us what happened: “War broke out in heaven: Michael [meaning, Jesus] and his angels battled with the dragon [Satan] battled.” Satan and his demons lost the war and were thrown down to the earth.” Comment: Firstly, I am interested in the various time periods of Daniel and Revelation, both as to when they individually start and finish, and also what is represented by the time period and what particular event happens when this period ends. I believe that Jesus is yet to return and thus the JW view of 1914 is incorrect. Some of the termination dates are like milestones towards the Kingdom, not the start of the Kingdom. I believe that the “war” of Revelation 12 is depicting the war between the pagan Roman forces with the Apostate Christian forces of Constantine.

Chapter 10: The truth about the angels
Page 106: (Picture of Daniel in the lions’ den, depicting a large angel with very large wings). Comment: I do not believe that Angels have wings. They have appeared and were mistaken at first as men, and thus these were without wings. They can move by means of Holy Spirit power.

Page 108: “In Noah’s time some angels rebelled and left their home in heaven to live as humans on earth. Why? The Bible tells us they wanted to have wives Genesis 6:2. … [when the flood came:] … To survive those wicked angels returned to heaven. The Bible calls those wicked angels demons.” Comment: I consider that this embellishes the narrative even if you believe that these were fallen angels. My understanding of this is that it is talking about the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. The separation and godliness of Seth and his descendants was broken down when they started to intermarry with the descendants of Cain, and the appeal was the outward beauty of the women who were the descendants of Cain. Angels do not marry.

Chapter 11: Why so much suffering?
Page 117: “Jehovah never causes bad things to happen.” Comment: I disagree. God sends judgement upon the wicked. God raised Assyria and Babylon to judge and purify Israel and Judah.

Page 118: “Jehovah never causes suffering. He’s not to blame for war, crime and mistreatment. God does not cause disasters such as earthquakes, hurricanes and floods.” Comment: Similar to the above. God is in control of such disasters as earthquakes, hurricanes and floods and can and has used some of these to accomplish his purpose. God brought the flood in Noah’s time upon the earth.

 

[TrevorL]

The following is a brief consideration of the next four chapters of the JW book “What Can the Bible Teach Us?” Again my initial focus will be to highlight the items which I find difficult and that I do not agree with.
Chapter 12: How can you become God’s friend?
A large portion of this chapter from page 125 to 129 gives the impression our major problem is dealing with Satan. I remember my mother-in-law when a JW at the door spoke a lot about Satan or the Devil, my mother-in-law said: “I have enough problems in dealing with the devil within without worrying about the devil without.” I agree with her and believe that we have a real struggle with the lusts of the flesh, the lust of the eye and the pride of life.

Another feature throughout the whole book is the citation of a Biblical reference from the NWT. Some of these can be helpful, some give a slightly different perspective to my usual environment with the KJV and others seem strange. On Page 132 it uses “the old personality” and “the new personality” while the KJV has “the old man” and “the new man”. These have a slightly different range, and I prefer the KJV.

Chapter 13: Respect the gift of life
I agree with and endorse what is stated on Pages 135-139. Then on Pages 140-141 the subject of blood transfusion is considered and this is one of the unique JW teachings.
Page 104: “God’s faithful servants are determined to obey his law about blood. They will not eat or drink blood, and they will not accept blood for medical reasons.” Comment: I believe that the law concerning drinking blood does not apply to blood transfusions. The law was speaking about some form of pagan sacrifices.

Chapter 14: Your family can be happy
This chapter is Pages 145-153 and I agree with what is stated.

Chapter 15: The right way to worship God
I agree in concept with what is stated in this chapter, including some teachings that are different to many Protestant Churches, but one outcome is that they claim that the JWs are the true religion. Here is one example of this where it is almost stated:
Page 156: “So, as God’s servants we follow Jesus’ example. We worship only Jehovah, we use his name, and we teach others God’s name and what he will do for us.” Comment: This claim is based upon their use of the word “Jehovah”, and I believe that the Name of God is better rendered Yahweh, and it is not only speaking the Name, but what is the meaning of the Name. I do not believe that the JWs fully or correctly understand or teach the meaning of the Name.

Their claim that the JWs are the true religion is explicitly stated on pages 158-159, where there is a list of some of their teachings and practices are listed, and then the following is stated:
Page 158: “After studying these points, ask yourself: Who base their teachings on the Bible? Who tell others about God’s name? Who …? Who …? Who …? It is only Jehovah’s Witnesses Isaiah 43:10-12.” Comment: JWs do not fully base their beliefs on the Bible. They incorrectly use and teach the name “Jehovah”. The witnesses spoken of in Isaiah 43:10-12 was Israel, not the JWs.



Forum Post #6 October 24th 2019

The following is a brief consideration of the last four chapters of the JW book “What Can the Bible Teach Us?” mainly highlighting items that I disagree with.
Chapter 16: Choose to Worship God
Most of this chapter is satisfactory. I personally do not keep Christmas though I do not worry if some in my fellowship do keep this. I endorse the concept of having a family gathering. JWs also do not celebrate birthdays, but I find no problem with celebrating birthdays.

Chapter 17: The Privilege of Prayer
I endorse most of what is stated in this chapter.

Chapter 18: Should I Dedicate my Life to God and be Baptized
This chapter possibly does not give much detail. One feature is the introduction of one of the main JW functions, that of preaching and traditionally this has been door to door, but more recently they have been using book stands in shopping areas or public areas such as parks where there are pedestrians passing by. Both of these have been restricted due to covid, but they plan to resume soon.
Page 188: “Eventually, you will be able to begin preaching with the congregation. When you feel ready to do so, you can talk to the Witness who is teaching you the Bible and tell him or her that you would like to share in the preaching work with the congregation.” Comment: This seems to indicate that the individual is gradually inducted into preaching before they are baptised, and that this reflects the main purpose and activity of the JW movement.

Page 191: “After you have dedicated yourself to Jehovah, you are ready for the next step. You need to get baptized.” Comment: This possibly gives the impression that part of this dedication is a full induction to preaching before baptism. Also what is not clear is the level of faith and understanding before baptism, but it would include all of the unique JW teachings.

Chapter 19: Stay Close to Jehovah
I agree with much of this chapter, but again the following main function of the JW movement appears.
Page 201: “If we want to remain close to Jehovah, we also need to talk to others about our faith.”

Concluding comment: I hope that this review and comments on this book is sufficient to indicate that the JW faith and practice is not in conformity with the Bible teaching.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[for_his_glory]

JW's are only allowed to use The New World Translation, which is a translation/rewritten edition of the Bible published by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. It is used and distributed by Jehovah's Witnesses. Notice it's a translation as only the Watch Tower Society tells you what to believe.

The Watchtower Organization teaches that it is God's sole earthly representative. Jehovah’s Witnesses are controlled by a "Governing Body" which they claim is the "faithful and discreet slave" spoken of at Mathew 24:45. This group consists of 10 to 15 mature men that, Jehovah’s Witnesses are told, have direct guidance from God. The Governing Body in turn instructs followers with this guidance through the pages of the Watchtower and other publications. Jehovah’s Witnesses are told by this "Governing Body" that Scripture alone is insufficient to understand the things of God. One needs the Watchtower Society and the literature it publishes to properly understand the Bible. ("Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit-anointed ones... Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do. Watchtower, December 1, 1981 p.27) they are the instruments God is using to teach the world the deeper things of the scriptures. People are not to think for themselves but instead submit to the Watchtower Society teachings. (" But a spirit of independent thinking does not prevail in God’s organization, and we have sound reasons for confidence in the men taking the lead among us. Watchtower September 15, 1989 p. 23) Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are the only people on earth that are serving God and the only ones that will be saved. They dare not question the teachings of the Watchtower Society; one who questions the Watchtower Society is considered to be weak in faith and could be disfellowshipped.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are not allowed to salute the flag of any nation, recite the pledge of allegiance, stand for or sing the national anthem, run for public office, vote, or serve in the armed forces.

Trinity
They do not believe in the Trinity. Instead, they follow a strict monotheism, in which: Jehovah is the Supreme Being. Jesus is the Son of God, a created being. Christ is believed to have originally existed in a pre-human state as the Archangel Michael. He later took human form as a man like any other person, except that he was sinless at birth and remained so throughout his earthly life. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe that after the crucifixion, Christ died and was resurrected as an invisible, non-material, glorious, spirit creature. They believe that Jesus appeared on earth after his resurrection in a special body that Jehovah created for him.
The Holy Spirit they believe, is not a separate entity, but is simply a force: the method by which God interacts with the world.

Salvation (Grace vs. Works)
Salvation requires that one accept Bible doctrines as interpreted by the Governing Body, be baptized as a Jehovah's Witness and follow the program of works as laid out by the Governing Body.
Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that they believe in the grace of God and that one does not earn salvation by their works. While they give lip service to God’s grace, their actions indicate differently. Consider the policy of making a disfellowshipped person earn their way back into the congregation. Remember you must be a Jehovah’s Witness "in good standing" to survive the end times, and to remain in good standing you must follow the rules and works set out by the Watchtower Organization. If someone breaks a rule, the elders decide whether that person is repentant or not, if they decide they are not repentant they are disfellowshipped. A disfellowshipped witness will not survive the time of the end. Think about it, they are deciding who deserves God’s grace and who does not.

 

[Josef]

JW's are only allowed to use The New World Translation, which is a translation/rewritten edition of the Bible published by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. It is used and distributed by Jehovah's Witnesses. Notice it's a translation as only the Watch Tower Society tells you what to believe.

The Watchtower Organization teaches that it is God's sole earthly representative. Jehovah’s Witnesses are controlled by a "Governing Body" which they claim is the "faithful and discreet slave" spoken of at Mathew 24:45. This group consists of 10 to 15 mature men that, Jehovah’s Witnesses are told, have direct guidance from God. The Governing Body in turn instructs followers with this guidance through the pages of the Watchtower and other publications. Jehovah’s Witnesses are told by this "Governing Body" that Scripture alone is insufficient to understand the things of God. One needs the Watchtower Society and the literature it publishes to properly understand the Bible. ("Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his "faithful and discreet slave," made up of spirit-anointed ones... Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do. Watchtower, December 1, 1981 p.27) they are the instruments God is using to teach the world the deeper things of the scriptures. People are not to think for themselves but instead submit to the Watchtower Society teachings. (" But a spirit of independent thinking does not prevail in God’s organization, and we have sound reasons for confidence in the men taking the lead among us. Watchtower September 15, 1989 p. 23) Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are the only people on earth that are serving God and the only ones that will be saved. They dare not question the teachings of the Watchtower Society; one who questions the Watchtower Society is considered to be weak in faith and could be disfellowshipped.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are not allowed to salute the flag of any nation, recite the pledge of allegiance, stand for or sing the national anthem, run for public office, vote, or serve in the armed forces.

Trinity
They do not believe in the Trinity. Instead, they follow a strict monotheism, in which: Jehovah is the Supreme Being. Jesus is the Son of God, a created being. Christ is believed to have originally existed in a pre-human state as the Archangel Michael. He later took human form as a man like any other person, except that he was sinless at birth and remained so throughout his earthly life. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe that after the crucifixion, Christ died and was resurrected as an invisible, non-material, glorious, spirit creature. They believe that Jesus appeared on earth after his resurrection in a special body that Jehovah created for him.
The Holy Spirit they believe, is not a separate entity, but is simply a force: the method by which God interacts with the world.

Salvation (Grace vs. Works)
Salvation requires that one accept Bible doctrines as interpreted by the Governing Body, be baptized as a Jehovah's Witness and follow the program of works as laid out by the Governing Body.
Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that they believe in the grace of God and that one does not earn salvation by their works. While they give lip service to God’s grace, their actions indicate differently. Consider the policy of making a disfellowshipped person earn their way back into the congregation. Remember you must be a Jehovah’s Witness "in good standing" to survive the end times, and to remain in good standing you must follow the rules and works set out by the Watchtower Organization. If someone breaks a rule, the elders decide whether that person is repentant or not, if they decide they are not repentant they are disfellowshipped. A disfellowshipped witness will not survive the time of the end. Think about it, they are deciding who deserves God’s grace and who does not.

Hey All,
And yet people still follow their rules.

It boggles the mind.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[for_his_glory]

Hey All,
And yet people still follow their rules.

It boggles the mind.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

That's because they have no truth found in them as they become indoctrinated being led around like a bull with a ring in its nose. My sister use to be a JW, and she showed me how they can add one word or take away one word to change a whole verse. They are very deceiving and do not even know they are.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings "for_his_glory",

That's because they have no truth found in them as they become indoctrinated being led around like a bull with a ring in its nose.

I do not have such a strong disapproval of the JWs by comparison to most Protestant Churches as I am most probably closer to some of their teachings than what is taught in the Churches. In general terms I share with the JWs that man is mortal and does not have an immortal soul, that there will be a 1000 year Kingdom of God, and that there is only One God, the Father. But even here on these three subjects, when we look closer I differ in many of the details, and some of this I have highlighted in my earlier posts.

Part of my respect for the JWs is based upon my contact with a Senior JW who for a short period was my supervisor, and on one occasion he helped me when I got into serious difficulty at work. We had a number of brief discussions over the years, but as usual we made no progress. I considered him very sincere in his beliefs and way of life. When he was about to retire he told me that he had partly derided one of my mates at work, who was in my fellowship. My mate had discussed maybe a few years earlier, his belief that Russia is mentioned in Ezekiel 38 as the King from the North. To indicate how long ago this was, it was at the time of the breakup of the Soviet Union, and the JW considered that his view of Ezekiel 38 was now not very likely to happen. Evidently my mate was a bit disturbed by the encounter. Possibly I am more patient, and time and circumstances have now again opened the possibility that Russia could fulfill the role depicted in Ezekiel 38. My response to the JW at the time was that I asked as to whom he thought would be this King from the North, and the King of the North mentioned in Daniel 11:40-45, and I received no answer, as this does not fit in with the JW assessment of the end times. This JW, if he is still alive would now be over 90 years old.

This was my second last contact with him, and your quotation from the NWT reminded me of the last time that I spoke to him.

The Watchtower Organization teaches that it is God's sole earthly representative. Jehovah’s Witnesses are controlled by a "Governing Body" which they claim is the "faithful and discreet slave" spoken of at Mathew 24:45.

After a very brief conversation at a shopping centre, with his Pentecostal wife urging him to continue with the shopping, my JW friend mentioned the "faithful and discreet slave". At the time I did not have a clue as to what he was talking about, and there was no opportunity for a clarification due to his wife's insistence. It was only some years later that I understood that this was a reference to the unique translation by the JWs of Matthew 24:45, and only later still realised how they understand this to apply almost exclusively to the GB. I was used to the KJV and the context:

Matthew 24:42–51 (KJV): 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I apply this passage to the individual "servants" within every one of the meetings in my fellowship. Each one of our meetings is autonomous, and we do not have a central authority. The individual members in each community from an early age are encouraged to do their private study so that they can eventually help the other members in their growth and understanding of God's Word.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[for_his_glory]

TrevorL here is a little more I would like to present about the Watch Tower Society that is so against the word of God.

Disfellowshipping

Most Christian churches have a system of moral oversight, but their systems are set up to help individuals with problems. Only after extensive effort over a period of time is action taken. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that Disfellowshipping is a loving act but in fact it is their most important control mechanism. It allows the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to control its members with guilt and fear.
The Watchtower Society makes a lot of rules, based on their interpretations of various scriptures that all Jehovah's Witnesses must follow. Members are taught that that they must turn each other in for any rule violations. If they observe another Jehovah's Witness breaking a rule and do not report him or her to the elders they are as guilty as the offending party. Anyone breaking any of the Watchtower Society rules is called before 3 elders in a private meeting that is conducted like a trial. The elders become judge and jury deciding whose is repentant and who is not.
Members, who are found to be unrepentant of violations of Watchtower rules by these elders, are disfellowshipped. Jehovah’s Witnesses can be disfellowshipped for a number of rule violations: premarital or extramarital sex, using alcohol excessively, using tobacco products, celebrating Christmas, reciting the pledge of allegiance, lying, stealing, joining the military, speaking to a disfellowshipped Witness, reading religious material not published by the governing body, or running for political office just to name a few. Fellow members are then required to shun him/her completely, having no contact even if the disfellowshipped person is a family member. (Some allowances are made if the family member is living in the same household). Disfellowshipping has a devastating effect because the individual's entire religious, family and social life are rooted in the Society. Keep in mind Jehovah’s Witnesses who are disfellowshipped are no longer part of the Watchtower Society and have, therefore, lost all hope of salvation until they can prove themselves worthy of being accepted back into the Watchtower Organization by their works. Elders in the congregation are the ones who decide when an individual has earned the right to come back into the fold, and the Watchtower Organization instructs elders that it would be very rare for one to earn their way back in less than a year. In order to earn their way back they must attend meetings regularly, sit in the back of the church -Kingdom Hall- while everyone in the congregation ignores them, if anyone did dare to speak to them they could be disfellowshipped themselves. They must do this with the knowledge that if Armageddon should come before they have earned their way back they will be destroyed. Sad to say disfellowshipping has resulted in suicide. Those who leave on their own are treated just as a disfellowshipped one. Once you join their group there is no easy way out.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings "for_his_glory",

here is a little more I would like to present about the Watch Tower Society that is so against the word of God.
Disfellowshipping

Yes, their method of disfellowshipping and shunning appear to be almost completely different to the Bible teaching. The JWs have a bad reputation because of this, and my experience in my fellowship is that much more care and love needs to be exercised otherwise any discipline would be counterproductive. My father's foster father had been disfellowshipped at one stage, most probably because of the breakdown of his first marriage, and in the late 1920s divorce and remarriage were rare. But he was refellowshipped and brought firstly my father to belief and baptism at the age of 21 and then later his second wife. As a result my father gained a strength and stability that served him well for the rest of his life, despite his very miserable beginnings in his childhood up until the age of 13. I have seen the results of the predominance of kindness and love and understanding in our fellowship recently, with very positive results.

reading religious material not published by the governing body

This seems to be in total contrast to what happens in my fellowship. In our youth we were encouraged to buy decent reference books, even though we realised that some of these contained some religious bias of the Authors. Do JWs own a Strong's Concordance or Young's Concordance for starters? If I refer to something very simple and straightforward in Strong's they either ignore me or do not want to know what is obvious.

I would feel very confined if I did not read a few "outside" commentaries as they often have some very useful comments and I like some of their summaries, for example a summary of a particular Psalm. One of these is Derek Kidner's two volumes on the Psalms.

Also I prefer to read a number of Bible versions and my main reading in the morning is a RV/KJV Interlinear Bible, evidently my Grandmother's favourite Bible. She died before I was born. For the Psalms I also like Robert Alter and Alec Motyer, who both give new translations and some useful notes on the text. I consider the NWT is very limited and most probably has many errors, e.g. Genesis 3:1 NWT "cautious" is an obvious error. Try telling a JW that this is an error. They will go to extraordinary lengths to try to justify an "established" error in the NWT and any associated comment on this error in "Let God be True".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JLB]

Chapter 1: Who is God?
Page 12: “God has told us that his name is Jehovah.” Comment: It is generally recognised that YHWH is better understood as Yahweh. Please consider Rotherham’s introduction and the JW Book: Aid to Bible Understanding especially pages 884-885 which is now been mainly supressed by the new JW publications. I agree with the future tense.
Page 17: “God wants us to have the best life possible.” Comment: This is true ultimately, but God subjects us to many circumstances now to develop us and some of these trials can be very difficult.

Here are some things to consider about the name "Jehovah" -

• It was first used in the 16th century. So Moses, who wrote the first five books of the bible, nor the prophets, nor Jesus, nor any writers of the New Testament would have recognized it as the name of God.

• Jesus never instructed anyone to call His Father Jehovah. He instructed us to call Him our heavenly Father. “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:14-15 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. Galatians 1:3-5

• What does Jehovah mean?

Jehovah, like halleluyah is a compound word.

Halleluyah:
Yah = Lord (H3050)
halal = praise (H1984)


Jehovah:

Yah = Lord (H3050)
hovah = ruin, disaster






The root of hovah is H1942

 

[Runningman]

That's because they have no truth found in them as they become indoctrinated being led around like a bull with a ring in its nose. My sister use to be a JW, and she showed me how they can add one word or take away one word to change a whole verse. They are very deceiving and do not even know they are.

There are possibly errors in all of the translations because there is often more than one plausible way to translate something from one language into another. Language translation isn't always rigid and literal. They used euphemisms, figures of speech, metaphor, poetry, and other literary devices that all people of every tongue use.

That's why understanding the culture, society, and context in which the Bible's manuscripts were written in is also important and it's an involved process. We cannot intuitively lift all that what we need to know about their time from the Bible, but instead have to look at sources external to the Bible for this.

That's why I don't say the JW's are in error. Every way I have seem them translate something, to the best of my knowledge, is, atleast, Biblically viable if not closer to the truth than what the Protestants and Catholics have produced. Though I myself am not a JW, I don't have any major issues with the majority of their doctrines.

 

[for_his_glory]

Greetings "for_his_glory",

Yes, their method of disfellowshipping and shunning appear to be almost completely different to the Bible teaching. The JWs have a bad reputation because of this, and my experience in my fellowship is that much more care and love needs to be exercised otherwise any discipline would be counterproductive. My father's foster father had been disfellowshipped at one stage, most probably because of the breakdown of his first marriage, and in the late 1920s divorce and remarriage were rare. But he was refellowshipped and brought firstly my father to belief and baptism at the age of 21 and then later his second wife. As a result my father gained a strength and stability that served him well for the rest of his life, despite his very miserable beginnings in his childhood up until the age of 13. I have seen the results of the predominance of kindness and love and understanding in our fellowship recently, with very positive results.

This seems to be in total contrast to what happens in my fellowship. In our youth we were encouraged to buy decent reference books, even though we realised that some of these contained some religious bias of the Authors. Do JWs own a Strong's Concordance or Young's Concordance for starters? If I refer to something very simple and straightforward in Strong's they either ignore me or do not want to know what is obvious.

I would feel very confined if I did not read a few "outside" commentaries as they often have some very useful comments and I like some of their summaries, for example a summary of a particular Psalm. One of these is Derek Kidner's two volumes on the Psalms.

Also I prefer to read a number of Bible versions and my main reading in the morning is a RV/KJV Interlinear Bible, evidently my Grandmother's favourite Bible. She died before I was born. For the Psalms I also like Robert Alter and Alec Motyer, who both give new translations and some useful notes on the text. I consider the NWT is very limited and most probably has many errors, e.g. Genesis 3:1 NWT "cautious" is an obvious error. Try telling a JW that this is an error. They will go to extraordinary lengths to try to justify an "established" error in the NWT and any associated comment on this error in "Let God be True".

Kind regards
Trevor

I remember one time I invited two JW into the house, but instead of allowing them to speak for very long I went and grabbed my Bible and started having a Bible study with them. The one guy was so nervous and wanted to leave while the other one was getting interested in what I was saying, but they both made their excuses and left, but at last some seed was planted into the one guy. They are not allowed to veer off from the Watch Tower's NWT bible.

 

[for_his_glory]

There are possibly errors in all of the translations because there is often more than one plausible way to translate something from one language into another. Language translation isn't always rigid and literal. They used euphemisms, figures of speech, metaphor, poetry, and other literary devices that all people of every tongue use.

That's why understanding the culture, society, and context in which the Bible's manuscripts were written in is also important and it's an involved process. We cannot intuitively lift all that what we need to know about their time from the Bible, but instead have to look at sources external to the Bible for this.

That's why I don't say the JW's are in error. Every way I have seem them translate something, to the best of my knowledge, is, atleast, Biblically viable if not closer to the truth than what the Protestants and Catholics have produced. Though I myself am not a JW, I don't have any major issues with the majority of their doctrines.

If you read my post #6, especially about the Trinity, you will see the heresies the Watch Tower society teaches its members.

 

[BB1956]

for_his_glory said,
"JW's are only allowed to use The New World Translation.[/QUOTE\]

This isn't true. I'm a JW and I have always used different translations of the scriptures, when studying the scriptures. So do most JW I know. It's true that we use the NWT and it is published by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. However the Watchtower Society doesn't dictate to JW's what translation of the Bible to used.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings JLB,

Jehovah, like halleluyah is a compound word.
Halleluyah:
Yah = Lord (H3050)
halal = praise (H1984)

Jehovah:
Yah = Lord (H3050)
hovah = ruin, disaster

Jehovah is recognised as an incorrect rendition of the YHWH Name and many scholars suggest Yahweh.

Strongs' gives the following definitions and this gives some indication why the erroneous form "Jehovah" occurred. "Jehovah" is based upon reading the wrong vowel points into YHWH:

3068 יהוה, יְהוִה [Yâhovah /yeh·ho·vaw/] n pr dei. From 1961; 6519 occurrences; AV translates as “LORD” 6510 times, “GOD” four times, “JEHOVAH” four times, and “variant” once. 1 the proper name of the one true God. 1A unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136.

3069 יהוה, יְהוִה [Yâhovih /yeh·ho·vee/] n pr dei. A variation of 3068 [used after 136, and pronounced by Jews as 430, in order to prevent the repetition of the same sound, since they elsewhere pronounce 3068 as 136]; 305 occurrences; AV translates as “GOD” 304 times, and “LORD” once. 1 Jehovah—used primarily in the combination ‘Lord Jehovah’. 1A equal to 03068 but pointed with the vowels of 0430.
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Excerpts from JW Book Aid to Bible Understanding - Article Jehovah

I was interested in reading the article “Jehovah” pages 882-895 in the JW Book Aid to Bible Understanding. The following are a few excerpts that I found to be relevant to the subject of the derivation of the erroneous rendition "Jehovah".

Page 882: “Jehovah” is the best known English pronunciation of the divine name, but “Yahweh” is preferred by most scholars.

Page 884: The time did come, however, when in reading the Hebrew Scriptures in the original language, the Jewish reader substituted either ‘Adho-nay’ (Lord) or ‘Elo-him’ (God) rather than pronounce the divine name represented by the Tetragrammaton. This is seen from the fact that when vowel pointing came into use in the second half of the first millennium C.E. the Jewish copyists inserted the vowel points for either ‘Adho-nay’ or ‘Elo-him’ into the Tetragrammaton, evidently to warn the reader to say those words in place of pronouncing the divine name.

Pages 884-885: The pronunciations “Jehovah” and “Yahweh”: By combining the vowel signs of ‘Adho-nay’ and ‘Elo-him’ with the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton the pronunciations ‘Yeho-wah’ and ‘Yeho-wih’ were formed. The first of these provided the basis for the Latinised form “Jehova(h)”. The first recorded use of this form dates from the thirteenth century C.E. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican Order, used it in his book Pugco Fidei of the year 1270. Hebrew scholars generally favour “Yahweh” as the most likely pronunciation.

Page 888: Moses raised the question: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they do say to me ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” … Moses’ question was a meaningful one. God’s reply in Hebrew was “’Eh-yeh’ asher eh-yeh’.” While some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM,” the Hebrew verb (ha-yah’) from which the word ‘eh-yeh’ is drawn does not mean simply to exist. Rather, it means to come into existence, to happen, occur, become, take on (an attribute), enter upon (a state), or constitute. Thus, the footnote of the Revised Standard Version gives as one reading “I Will Be What I Will Be”.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BB1956]

Greetings JLB,

Jehovah is recognised as an incorrect rendition of the YHWH Name and many scholars suggest Yahweh.

Strongs' gives the following definitions and this gives some indication why the erroneous form "Jehovah" occurred. "Jehovah" is based upon reading the wrong vowel points into YHWH:

3068 יהוה, יְהוִה [Yâhovah /yeh·ho·vaw/] n pr dei. From 1961; 6519 occurrences; AV translates as “LORD” 6510 times, “GOD” four times, “JEHOVAH” four times, and “variant” once. 1 the proper name of the one true God. 1A unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136.

3069 יהוה, יְהוִה [Yâhovih /yeh·ho·vee/] n pr dei. A variation of 3068 [used after 136, and pronounced by Jews as 430, in order to prevent the repetition of the same sound, since they elsewhere pronounce 3068 as 136]; 305 occurrences; AV translates as “GOD” 304 times, and “LORD” once. 1 Jehovah—used primarily in the combination ‘Lord Jehovah’. 1A equal to 03068 but pointed with the vowels of 0430.
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.

Kind regards
Trevor

It's not like the majority of people and translators care about the name of God, which is representative by the four letters, YHWH. The tetragrammaton was in the old testament scriptures 6,828 times. These four letters have been replaced by titles such as Lord or God. However the frequency of YHWH in the old testament, 6,828 times throughout the old testament far out numbers that of any titles, such as, Sovereign Lord, or God, that's applied to him. However scholars and translators don't consistently used YHWH in their versions of the scriptures, most translators use titles such as Lord and God. So it's not like the majority translators truly care about the name YHWH that God inspired it to be written down 6,828 times in the scriptures. Imperfect men born in sin think what they have done, taking the name YHWH out of the scriptures and replacing it with titles such as Lord and God to be far more important than what God did, when he inspired men to write his name YHWH down far more times than any titles such as Sovereign Lord or God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again BB1956,

mperfect men born in sin think what they have done, taking the name YHWH out of the scriptures and replacing it with titles such as Lord and God to be far more important than what God did, when he inspired men to write his name YHWH down far more times than any titles such as Sovereign Lord or God.

Yes, I disagree with the replacement of the Name YHWH with LORD and GOD, rendered by capitals in the KJV. In my fellowship, when I read the KJV from the platform, I read Yahweh where LORD and GOD appear, and Lord when Lord appears, e.g. Psalm 110:1 David's Lord. We also use the form "Yahweh" in talks and conversation as possibly the accepted rendition, and consider that "Jehovah" is erroneous, appearing in some old hymns and almost exclusively used and advertised by JWs.

Kind regards
Trevor