If they are implying that God isn't Eternal, well their implication is straight up hands down WRONG. God never began, He ALWAYS existed.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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JW Book: “What Can the Bible Teach Us?”
- Thread starter TrevorL
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #43
Greetings again for_his_glory and Greetings KV-44-v1,
Psalm 8:3–6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
This uses the framework of the Genesis creation and the creation of Adam to speak of the creation or conception/birth of Jesus.
How this was accomplished is recorded in the following references:
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
As far as the second question is concerned, the same passage as above gives a poetic parallel to teach that the Holy Spirit is "the power of the Highest", showing that the Holy Spirit is God the Father's power.
Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
I know the position of BB1956, and we do not need him to answer again. He differs with my position as he believes that Jesus, possibly as Michael the Archangel, was the first being created, well before the creation of the present world. Yes, he believes that the Holy Spirit is God the Father's power.
I am quite willing to answer these two questions by using Scripture from my perspective. Yes, Jesus is a created being. He was conceived and born and the following Scriptures teach this:
Psalm 8:3–6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
This uses the framework of the Genesis creation and the creation of Adam to speak of the creation or conception/birth of Jesus.
How this was accomplished is recorded in the following references:
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
As far as the second question is concerned, the same passage as above gives a poetic parallel to teach that the Holy Spirit is "the power of the Highest", showing that the Holy Spirit is God the Father's power.
Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
- Apr 22, 2011
- 30,608
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Sorry, but I never argue with anyone, but try to discuss and since you are not willing to answer my two questions then I am done with our conversation and this thread. You have a great day.
Trevor said,
"I know the position of BB1956, and we do not need him to answer again. He differs with my position as he believes that Jesus, possibly as Michael the Archangel, was the first being created, well before the creation of the present world. Yes, he believes that the Holy Spirit is God the Father's power.[/QUOTE\]
The only begotten Son of God was the first being directly created by the only True God YHWH, then through his only begotten Son, YHWH God created the angels, and then the physical universe and all the life on planet earth, especially human life. So the only begotten Son of God is the only living being(creature) directly created by YHWH God. Everything else and everyone else was indirectly created by YHWH God. This is why the only begotten Son of God is called the only begotten Son, because the only begotten Son was the only one directly created by YHWH God.
The title archangel is used in two verses in scripture, that's at 1 Thessalonians 4:16 where it says the only begotten Son of God has a voice of an archangel and at Jude 9 where it says Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil. In both these cases the word, "archangel" is singular, suggesting that only one angel bears this title.
Why would an archangel's voice be associated with Jesus Christ when it comes to the resurrection of the dead, if he isn't the archangel Michael. At John 5:25, 28-29 it tells you that those who are dead in the memorial tombs will hear the voice of Jesus and be resurrected. At 1 Thessalonians 4: 16 it says that the dead will be resurrected with an archangel's voice. Both these scriptures are speaking about the resurrection of the dead. The only person that YHWH God has given authority or granted life in himself like YHWH God is his only begotten Son. YHWH God has also granted his only begotten Son the authority to judge. No angel inferior to the only begotten Son of God would have this kind of authority, because the scriptures show that YHWH God has only given this kind of authority, to his only begotten Son. So YHWH God's only begotten Son is also the archangel Michael.
For those that disagree with that, then they're going to have to show me from scripture where YHWH God has given someone else other than his only begotten Son this same authority he has given his only begotten Son.
"I know the position of BB1956, and we do not need him to answer again. He differs with my position as he believes that Jesus, possibly as Michael the Archangel, was the first being created, well before the creation of the present world. Yes, he believes that the Holy Spirit is God the Father's power.[/QUOTE\]
The only begotten Son of God was the first being directly created by the only True God YHWH, then through his only begotten Son, YHWH God created the angels, and then the physical universe and all the life on planet earth, especially human life. So the only begotten Son of God is the only living being(creature) directly created by YHWH God. Everything else and everyone else was indirectly created by YHWH God. This is why the only begotten Son of God is called the only begotten Son, because the only begotten Son was the only one directly created by YHWH God.
The title archangel is used in two verses in scripture, that's at 1 Thessalonians 4:16 where it says the only begotten Son of God has a voice of an archangel and at Jude 9 where it says Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil. In both these cases the word, "archangel" is singular, suggesting that only one angel bears this title.
Why would an archangel's voice be associated with Jesus Christ when it comes to the resurrection of the dead, if he isn't the archangel Michael. At John 5:25, 28-29 it tells you that those who are dead in the memorial tombs will hear the voice of Jesus and be resurrected. At 1 Thessalonians 4: 16 it says that the dead will be resurrected with an archangel's voice. Both these scriptures are speaking about the resurrection of the dead. The only person that YHWH God has given authority or granted life in himself like YHWH God is his only begotten Son. YHWH God has also granted his only begotten Son the authority to judge. No angel inferior to the only begotten Son of God would have this kind of authority, because the scriptures show that YHWH God has only given this kind of authority, to his only begotten Son. So YHWH God's only begotten Son is also the archangel Michael.
For those that disagree with that, then they're going to have to show me from scripture where YHWH God has given someone else other than his only begotten Son this same authority he has given his only begotten Son.
Those who want to whack at someone's believes I don't think to be appropriate. I can understand someone disagreeing with me that's their right. But I don't think I've done any whacking, disagreed yes, but whacking, I don't think so, certainly hope I haven't. If I have I certainly apologize for whacking. I don't think however that disagreeing with someone to be whacking.Thought so. Hide your worldview beliefs on those so we can't whack 'em. Quite sus.
- Jul 13, 2012
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- Thread starter
- #48
Greetings again BB1956,
I believe that our Lord Jesus Christ was and is a human, now exalted and now sitting on the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and Jesus will soon return to sit upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem and he will reign over a converted, significant remnant of natural Israel and over the mortal nations and individuals that survive the Battle of Armageddon.
Jesus is the Son of God by birth as God the Father is his father and Mary his mother, refer Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35. Jesus Christ is the Son of God by character, he was full of grace and truth John 1:14. He is also the Son of God by resurrection, and his resurrected body was changed from a mortal human, to a glorious immortal human, similar to that depicted in the Transfiguration.
I would like to concentrate on the character of Jesus. Was he sinless, was he full of grace and truth because in a previous life he was Michael the Archangel, or God the Son?
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Where I differ with both JWs and Trinitarians, I attribute "only begotten of the Father" is speaking of his human birth as detailed in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35. Was the human character and sinlessness of Jesus a development or a transfer of the character of Michael the Archangel or God the Son into the human body of Jesus? The Scriptures reveal that his wisdom was developed:
Luke 2:40,52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Isaiah 11:1–5 (KJV): 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isaiah 50:4–9 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.
None of the above attribute his character to a pre-existent Michael the Archangel or God the Son, but to his special birth and development as a human, and hence the phrase "the only begotten of the Father" relates to what is revealed in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35.
Daniel 10:12–13 (KJV): 12 Then said he (Gabriel) unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
If the writer to the Hebrews considered Jesus to be Michael the Archangel, then he would not state the following:
Hebrews 1:4–7,13-14 (KJV): 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Kind regards
Trevor
I appreciate your explanation of your perspective and you seem to have covered the JW perspective in a clear and detailed manner. Instead of answering every detail of your Post, I would like to give a general explanation of my perspective, and also respond to a few of your details.
I believe that our Lord Jesus Christ was and is a human, now exalted and now sitting on the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and Jesus will soon return to sit upon the Temple Throne of David in Jerusalem and he will reign over a converted, significant remnant of natural Israel and over the mortal nations and individuals that survive the Battle of Armageddon.
Jesus is the Son of God by birth as God the Father is his father and Mary his mother, refer Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35. Jesus Christ is the Son of God by character, he was full of grace and truth John 1:14. He is also the Son of God by resurrection, and his resurrected body was changed from a mortal human, to a glorious immortal human, similar to that depicted in the Transfiguration.
I would like to concentrate on the character of Jesus. Was he sinless, was he full of grace and truth because in a previous life he was Michael the Archangel, or God the Son?
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Where I differ with both JWs and Trinitarians, I attribute "only begotten of the Father" is speaking of his human birth as detailed in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35. Was the human character and sinlessness of Jesus a development or a transfer of the character of Michael the Archangel or God the Son into the human body of Jesus? The Scriptures reveal that his wisdom was developed:
Luke 2:40,52 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Isaiah 11:1–5 (KJV): 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isaiah 50:4–9 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.
None of the above attribute his character to a pre-existent Michael the Archangel or God the Son, but to his special birth and development as a human, and hence the phrase "the only begotten of the Father" relates to what is revealed in Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35.
I suggest that Michael the Archangel is an Angel and is an Angel of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father as the Scriptures state. From the following it appears that there were a number of Archangels, each given a different area of responsibility. They stood in the Presence of God, and in contrast Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God. Gabriel is one of these Archangels:
Daniel 10:12–13 (KJV): 12 Then said he (Gabriel) unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
If the writer to the Hebrews considered Jesus to be Michael the Archangel, then he would not state the following:
Hebrews 1:4–7,13-14 (KJV): 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Kind regards
Trevor
- Jan 23, 2011
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Like modern day Spiritualists JWs believe God is like created spirits, living inside a spirit body:
"While there are physical bodies visible and palpable, there are also spiritual bodies, invisible to human eyes and entirely beyond human senses. (1 Cor. 15:44) The bodies of spiritual persons (God, Christ, the angels) are glorious...The true God is not omnipresent."--Aid To Bible Understanding, p. 247, 665 (Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, 1971)
Its a main belief of JWs. Do you agree with it?
- Jan 23, 2011
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Question. JWs believe people cease to exist when they die. God's memory of them is "recreated" therefore, "resurrection" to JWs is not "bringing to life again the person who died" for they remain dead. Nothing "connects" what died, with what is recreated from God's memory.
Is that what you believe also?
God's ability to resurrect...If scientific principles established by God can be used by scientists to preserve and later reconstruct a visible and audible scene by means of videotape, how easy it is for the great Universal Sovereign and Creator to resurrect a person by repatterning the same personality in a newly formed body."-Insight on the Scriptures, Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, 1988, Vol 2, p. 784.
- Thread starter
- #51
Greetings Alfred Perssson,
"His attributes
The true God is not omnipresent, for he is spoken of as having a location. (1 Ki. 8:49; John 16:28; Heb. 9:24) His throne is in heaven. (Isa. 66:1) He is all-powerful, being the Almighty God. (Gen. 17:1; Rev. 16:14) "All things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him," and he is "the One telling from the beginning the finale." (Heb. 4:13; Isa. 46:10, 11; 1 Sam. 2:3) His power and knowledge extend everywhere, reaching every part of the universe. 2 Chron. 16:9; Ps. 139:7-12; Amos 9:2-4."
I am not sure where you disagree with the above. I believe he is located upon His Throne in Heaven, with Jesus at his right hand and the Angels in attendance.
Kind regards
Trevor
I believe that Jesus and the Angels are physical beings and are visible to human eyes. I consider that Jesus' physical body was raised from the dead and THEN changed to immortality. He possessed the same body but this was changed into a spiritual body, still physical and visible.
The full paragraph states the following:
"His attributes
The true God is not omnipresent, for he is spoken of as having a location. (1 Ki. 8:49; John 16:28; Heb. 9:24) His throne is in heaven. (Isa. 66:1) He is all-powerful, being the Almighty God. (Gen. 17:1; Rev. 16:14) "All things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him," and he is "the One telling from the beginning the finale." (Heb. 4:13; Isa. 46:10, 11; 1 Sam. 2:3) His power and knowledge extend everywhere, reaching every part of the universe. 2 Chron. 16:9; Ps. 139:7-12; Amos 9:2-4."
I am not sure where you disagree with the above. I believe he is located upon His Throne in Heaven, with Jesus at his right hand and the Angels in attendance.
No, I believe in the resurrection of the body. Lazarus is an example of God's power granted to Jesus, as he was raised after 4 days. Yes, although I agree with many of the JW concepts more than the normal Protestant views, such as God is One, the mortality of man, the 1000 year Kingdom, I disagree with many of their specific finer details.
Kind regards
Trevor
- Jan 23, 2011
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While I agree the resurrected body of Jesus and angels are physical, Jesus as the Word of God must be more than the angels because scripture never says "in angels all things hold together" nor are angels "before all things":
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Col. 1:17 NIV)
So how do you interpret that verse?
- Jan 23, 2011
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As God, nothing is impossible for Him. He can have "location" via a "theophany", but He must also be omnipresent because it is written:
27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
(Acts 17:27-28 NIV)
How can we "live and move and have our being" in God, and He not be omnipresent?
Another example, God lives in two places at the same time. He lives in a "high and holy place, but also with the one who is contrite"
15 For this is what the high and exalted One says-- he who lives forever, whose name is holy: "I live in a high and holy place, but also with the one who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite. (Isa. 57:15 NIV)
God must be omnipresent to do both at the same time.
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- Jan 23, 2011
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But what of the person himself that died? The body is not the person, its a body a person lives in. So if the body is resurrected, what becomes of the person who once lived in that body?
- Thread starter
- #55
Greetings Alfred Perssson,
The JWs leave the bodies of the 144,000 in the grave and some invisible spirit being ascends to heaven. I am not sure exactly what the body of those who will occupy the earth will possess, but I do not think they consider that they will be immortal.
Do you hold a similar body/spirit view as the JW 144,000?
Kind regards
Trevor
Yes, Jesus is superior to the Angels and has been given all authority and power in heaven and earth.
I suggest that the article is not very clear. They are saying that God is not ONLY omnipresent, but he is located in heaven.
I am not sure what you are questioning. I believe the body is the person and each body has two arms, two legs, a nose, two eyes, a brain and consciousness. The resurrection restores all of this, and then when the faithful are accepted, the same person is perpetuated but glorified with greater attributes. I do not believe in immortal souls or a person having a conscious spirit that continues after death.
The JWs leave the bodies of the 144,000 in the grave and some invisible spirit being ascends to heaven. I am not sure exactly what the body of those who will occupy the earth will possess, but I do not think they consider that they will be immortal.
Do you hold a similar body/spirit view as the JW 144,000?
Kind regards
Trevor
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- Jan 23, 2011
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You didn't explain what "before all things" and "in him all things hold together" mean:
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Col. 1:17 NIV)
- Thread starter
- #57
Greetings Alfred Perssson,
Psalm 8:3–6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
We encounter the phrase "all things" in the above and Paul is quoting and alluding to this. As I stated, Jesus is now superior to the Angels. Whereas God had placed the world under the control of the Angels, Jesus has now been mae superior to the Angels.
We can understand how this was accomplished because Jesus inherited this role as a result of his special birth, his special education and his willing acceptance of this instruction and guidance, his willingness to fulfill the role of God's servant:
Philippians 2:5–11 (KJV): 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Notice the expression "things" in verse 10, and this is an explanation or expansion of the phrase "all things" of Psalm 8:6.
Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
The shedding forth of the Holy Spirit was a token and an evidence that Jesus has been granted authority and power over all things.
Your use of the NIV possibly gives a clearer explanation of the second part of Colossians 1:17:
Colossians 1:17 (KJV): And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Colossians 1:17 (NIV84): He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Perhaps two more references, the first is part of the exposition concerning Psalm 8:
Hebrews 2:5–10 (KJV): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, (the One God, Yahweh, God the Father) for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Matthew 28:18 (KJV): And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Kind regards
Trevor
Yes, I did, but you do not want to accept what I stated.
If you want me to expand on what I said, then the following is an attempt to clarify. Before the creation of the world, God foresaw the failure of Adam and that it would be necessary to raise up a "Son of Man", that is a Son of Adam to fulfill his purpose in creating the earth.
Psalm 8:3–6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
We encounter the phrase "all things" in the above and Paul is quoting and alluding to this. As I stated, Jesus is now superior to the Angels. Whereas God had placed the world under the control of the Angels, Jesus has now been mae superior to the Angels.
We can understand how this was accomplished because Jesus inherited this role as a result of his special birth, his special education and his willing acceptance of this instruction and guidance, his willingness to fulfill the role of God's servant:
Philippians 2:5–11 (KJV): 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Notice the expression "things" in verse 10, and this is an explanation or expansion of the phrase "all things" of Psalm 8:6.
Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
The shedding forth of the Holy Spirit was a token and an evidence that Jesus has been granted authority and power over all things.
Your use of the NIV possibly gives a clearer explanation of the second part of Colossians 1:17:
Colossians 1:17 (KJV): And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Colossians 1:17 (NIV84): He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Perhaps two more references, the first is part of the exposition concerning Psalm 8:
Hebrews 2:5–10 (KJV): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, (the One God, Yahweh, God the Father) for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Matthew 28:18 (KJV): And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Kind regards
Trevor
- Jan 23, 2011
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Psalm 8:3-6 is about "what is man", not Jesus:
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Col. 1:17 NIV)
Paul can't be alluding to that.
- Jan 23, 2011
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Paul is speaking about Jesus, not "what is man". According to John 1:1-3 all things were created by Jesus:
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Col. 1:16-17 NIV)
Therefore, the plain reading of Colossians 1:17 in context, is as follows:
1:16–17. The third characteristic of Christ is that by Him all things were created. In fact all things were created by Him (di’ autou, instrumental Cause) and for Him (eis auton, final Cause), and in Him (en autō) they hold together (He is the constituting or conserving Cause). Christ is not only the One through whom all things came to be, but also the One by whom they continue to exist.-Geisler, N. L. (1985). Colossians. In J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck (Eds.), The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (Vol. 2, p. 673). Victor Books.
In Jesus we live and move and have our being:
'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' (Acts 17:28 NIV)
It is the power and intellect of Jesus that creates the matrix, and sustains everyone in it. He holds it all together.
Electromagnetism is analogous to this, as is the way a "thought" exists in our brain:
This in no way suggests Jesus being a "created being". This is referring to sonS of men, plural. Not THE Son of Man.
Look in NASB. The 'him' is lowercased. Therefore, there is no way that is referring to Jesus, but to common everyday sonS of men.
"What is man that You think of him,
And a son of man that You are concerned about him?
5 Yet You have made him a little lower than [d]God,
And You crown him with glory and majesty!
6 You have him rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put everything under his feet,"
This actually weakens your case.
If Jesus is just a created, not THE CREATOR, this UNDERMINES the entire Gospel!!
These two you cited are discussing Jesus being born, PHYSICALLY. Nothing to do with His origins. Jesus is God so therefore He never began. All you are doing is grasping at straws.
*AND* the power of the Highest.
Still 3 Persons 1 God.