King Saul - heaven or hell??

[FreeGrace]

You are really not understanding what I am saying in the least.

What I am saying is that the people of Israel held a belief in a Mythology that was inaccurate before Daniel told them otherwise. [/QUOT]E
If that's true, then Heb 11:26 needs a whole lot of explaining.

Heb 11:26
He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.
NIV

I look forward to yours.

Today we know exactly about the rewards of Heaven... much more so than Saul or David did at the time when they were kings.

Again, please explain Heb 11:26 then.

 

[JohnDB]

Well, my focus is on the OP of this thread, which IS about Saul conversing with Samuel and what was said.

I can appreciate that. Sorry for the intrusion. See my reply to smaller above as to what I have been discussing

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree.
However, how does this unique situation support OSAS?
JLB

How could it not? 1 Chron 10:13-14 plainly says that God killed Saul for unfaithfulness, the very thing that your position claims will result in loss of salvation. Yet, Samuel told Saul that he would join him the next day.

That would refute your position.

 

[FreeGrace]

Which can signify that he never lost faith and trust in the Promise.

He was unfaithful, but he may not have been faithless.

They mean the SAME THING. "unfaithful" means to lack faith. "faithless" means to lack faith.

What we learn from Saul is not that a person can never lose their place in God.

Which is eternal security. Thank you.

 

[smaller]

I was answering a question posed by FreeGrace or freewill ...(.can't remember)when you inserted yourself into the discussion.

Please don't try that angle.

And the question was about what they believed if they didn't believe in Heaven...and I answered it.

When anyone flashes the mythology card about scriptures, which you did, I'm sure you'd understand that presents issues to the basis of scriptural discussions.

 

[FreeGrace]

Where is it written that Saul was ever a believer?

Clearly implied.

First, Samuel told Saul that he would join him the next day. Only believers went where Samuel went.

Also, we have this verse that indicates that he was saved:
1 Sam 10:6
"Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you mightily, and you shall prophesy with them and be changed into another man." NASU

It doesn't seem reasonable that this would occur with an unsaved unbeliever.

 

[JohnDB]

FreeGrace , your question about Hebrews 11:26 is answered by Hebrews 11:27.

 

[turnorburn]

Clearly implied.

First, Samuel told Saul that he would join him the next day. Only believers went where Samuel went.

Also, we have this verse that indicates that he was saved:
1 Sam 10:6
"Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you mightily, and you shall prophesy with them and be changed into another man." NASU

It doesn't seem reasonable that this would occur with an unsaved unbeliever.

Caiaphas prophesied as well..

John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. (KJV)

 

[JohnDB]

Please don't try that angle.



When anyone flashes the mythology card about scriptures, which you did, I'm sure you'd understand that presents issues to the basis of scriptural discussions.

I never once said that what they believed was accurate... only that the current information was not available to them.
My addition to this discussion is of an Apologetical nature and not theological. I'm explaining historical anthropology...not Theology.
I really don't want to subject myself to trying to "cleaning the Aegean Stables" so I pretty much gave up debate on Theological topics.

 

[JohnDB]

Caiaphas prophesied as well..

John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. (KJV)

And this is a rather interesting point.

One day Saul is prophesying with the prophets and filled/overcome with the Holy Spirit (taking off his royal robe to do so) and then at another time he is consulting a witch for fortune telling...which results in him taking his own life and getting his body abused by the enemy. (Which is not what he wanted)

Saul died and lived poorly. But had some relationship with God... albeit rather a difficult one.
Saul had anything but perfect Love (which casts out fear). Saul was consumed by his fears and wants. But he knew God at the same time... knowing better but not doing better.

 

[smaller]

I never once said that what they believed was accurate... only that the current information was not available to them.

The O.T. does present some interesting matters. No doubt. I just try to keep in mind that God really doesn't hold back for anyone, O.T. or N.T.

My addition to this discussion is of an Apologetical nature and not theological. I'm explaining historical anthropology...not Theology.

I'm familiar with that angle. But the normal results do not usually result in myth presentations. Forcing the texts to fit strict historical narratives have issues.

I really don't want to subject myself to trying to "cleaning the Aegean Stables" so I pretty much gave up debate on Theological topics.

I'll leave off on further comment to your insertions. I hope you saw the merit in pointing out the myth angle as it really doesn't suit the arena of discourse here.

I tried to show the potential downside in taking the accounts of a witch, a seance and talking to the dead and with a guy who had a evil spirit as problematic for analysis, for what I might consider obvious reasons.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace , your question about Hebrews 11:26 is answered by Hebrews 11:27.

But 11:26 seems to refute your comments about people not understanding heaven and rewards until Daniel. v.27 doesn't get your view off the hook.

 

[FreeGrace]

Caiaphas prophesied as well..

John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. (KJV)

Was Caiaphas "changed into another man"?
Did the Holy Spirit "come upon him"?
Did he speak in tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit coming upon him?

 

[turnorburn]

i see Saul as an example of a person that knows about God but doesn't know God..

"churchianity"

 

[JohnDB]

But 11:26 seems to refute your comments about people not understanding heaven and rewards until Daniel. v.27 doesn't get your view off the hook.

Umm
Having a positive relationship with the Maker of the world vx a positive relationship with someone who just temporarily controls a small portion of the earth....yeah...and exactly who would any reasonable and prudent person choose?

 

[FreeGrace]

i see Saul as an example of a person that knows about God but doesn't know God..

"churchianity"

There was no church back then. And being filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, and being changed into another man seems not to have much meaning for you then.

It does to me.

But, bottom line anyway: Saul joined Samuel after death.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"But 11:26 seems to refute your comments about people not understanding heaven and rewards until Daniel. v.27 doesn't get your view off the hook."

Umm
Having a positive relationship with the Maker of the world vx a positive relationship with someone who just temporarily controls a small portion of the earth....yeah...and exactly who would any reasonable and prudent person choose?

Sorry, but unable to figure out how any of this relates to anything I posted.

 

[JohnDB]

I said this:
"But 11:26 seems to refute your comments about people not understanding heaven and rewards until Daniel. v.27 doesn't get your view off the hook."

Sorry, but unable to figure out how any of this relates to anything I posted.

Vs 27 explains what Moses was after...that he could see by faith. Heaven wasn't on his radar screen.
The Talmudic tale of the Assumption of Moses wasn't written till the interTestament period.

Do you have any anthropology studies that show something different than what I have explained? I would be greatly interested in reading them after confirming the author has standing. I'm really looking for your source in history in this issue.

 

[FreeGrace]

Vs 27 explains what Moses was after...that he could see by faith. Heaven wasn't on his radar screen.

No, v.26 explains clearly what He was "looking ahead" for. It's about "looking ahead", and not "after" that the verse speaks to.

The Talmudic tale of the Assumption of Moses wasn't written till the interTestament period.

What is this talmudic tale, and how is it important?

Do you have any anthropology studies that show something different than what I have explained?

I have been clear that what "general people" thought means nothing because it's what the Bible SAYS that is important.

And Moses was fully aware of Christ and rewards.

I would be greatly interested in reading them after confirming the author has standing. I'm really looking for your source in history in this issue.

Regarding what the word of God says, I look only to the Bible. Certainly NOT anthropology studies. Most anthropologists are secular anyway.

Further, Jesus was clear about the Jews having "Moses and the prophets" who taught about eternal life. That proves that at least as far back as Moses Scripture taught about eternity and rewards.

My sources that support my position:
Luke 16:29, 31, 24:27, 44, John 1:45, Acts 16:22, 28:23

 

[Jim Parker]

Where is it written that Saul was ever a believer?

same place it's written that he was not