King Saul - heaven or hell??

[Jim Parker]

What is this talmudic tale, and how is it important?

It was important enough for St. Jude to quote from it in his letter.

 

[Jim Parker]

Why did you refer to the episode as a "twisted parallel"?

I didn't.
And you didn't answer my question: "May I ask, is English a second language for you? (Seriously)"

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Which can signify that he never lost faith and trust in the Promise.

He was unfaithful, but he may not have been faithless. Like Moses, if Saul's disobedience was not the result of an abandonment of belief and trust in the Promise to Abraham, but simply the result of weakness, ignorance, or stupidity, then he went to the place of the righteous dead.

What we learn from Saul is not that a person can never lose their place in God. What we learn is that when you act like an idiot nobody can tell if you still have that place in God (thus the reason for this thread, and the multitudes before it). That is why the Bible exhorts us to be obedient children of God, so our calling and election can be shown to be real.

Nobody starts threads wondering if Daniel went to the righteous dead, or not. His life of obedience indicates the reality of his belief in the Promise. If he was disobedient, that could only indicate that he was unfaithful, and would not be sufficient in and of itself to indicate him being faithless. We can not judge the reason why someone is being unfaithful if they don't tell us why themselves.

Consider Peter. He denied that he even knew Jesus.
So, was he lost? No way!

1Ch 10:13-14 (NKJV) So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the LORD, because he did not keep the word of the LORD, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. But he did not inquire of the LORD; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

That bit of scripture states that God killed Saul to remove him from his position as king in order to replace him with David. It may be that God removed him (by allowing the enemies of Israel to kill him) because of the path down which he had started by consulting a medium. God may have "brought him home" before he got lost.

David was also failed to keep the word of the Lord by committing adultery with Bathsheba and murdering her husband, Uriah who had been one of his faithful "mighty men" during the time Saul was trying to kill him.
It really does not address Saul's eternal condition.

We don't have a sound basis by which we may pronounce judgment upon King Saul. IMHO

iakov the fool

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"What is this talmudic tale, and how is it important?"

It was important enough for St. Jude to quote from it in his letter.

The question "how is it important" refers to the discussion, not it was quoted by Jude.

So, again, how is it important to our discussion?

 

[FreeGrace]

I didn't.

My bad. It was sinthesis who did.

And you didn't answer my question: "May I ask, is English a second language for you? (Seriously)"

Your question is hardly serious. It is quite condescending. Anyone who reads this thread would obviously know the answer to that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Consider Peter. He denied that he even knew Jesus.
So, was he lost? No way!

1Ch 10:13-14 (NKJV) So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the LORD, because he did not keep the word of the LORD, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. But he did not inquire of the LORD; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

That bit of scripture states that God killed Saul to remove him from his position as king in order to replace him with David. It may be that God removed him (by allowing the enemies of Israel to kill him) because of the path down which he had started by consulting a medium. God may have "brought him home" before he got lost.

David was also failed to keep the word of the Lord by committing adultery with Bathsheba and murdering her husband, Uriah who had been one of his faithful "mighty men" during the time Saul was trying to kill him.
It really does not address Saul's eternal condition.

We don't have a sound basis by which we may pronounce judgment upon King Saul. IMHO

iakov the fool

We do have a sound basis by which to know where Saul's soul went after he died on the battlefield. He joined Samuel.

 

[Jim Parker]

Your question is hardly serious. It is quite condescending. Anyone who reads this thread would obviously know the answer to that.

That is not an answer.
I asked if English was a second language for you because your answers seem to be based on a confusion of that was posted and to which you responded. They often do not "connect." That repeated disconnect between what was posted and your responses have led me to ask the question.
So it is a serious question since a candid answer to it would provide information which may assist in the manner in which comments addressed to you are formed thus facilitating communication.
It is not condescending, it is a serious question.
It is a question which you seem reluctant to answer.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

The question "how is it important" refers to the discussion, not it was quoted by Jude.

That it is important, or at least germane, to the discussion is demonstrated by the context in which it was introduced.
If you wish to know how it is important, go back and examine the post in which it was introduced.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

We do have a sound basis by which to know where Saul's soul went after he died on the battlefield. He joined Samuel.

Yes, in death.

 

[JohnDB]

I asked this:
"What is this talmudic tale, and how is it important?"

The question "how is it important" refers to the discussion, not it was quoted by Jude.

So, again, how is it important to our discussion?

It's a Talmudic tale that talks about Moses going to Heaven.

In the meantime can you please show us a reputable anthropology report that refutes the timeline I have related as to beliefs in Sheol before beliefs about Heaven became clear?

Something that comes from someone other than you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Consider Peter. He denied that he even knew Jesus.
So, was he lost? No way!

1Ch 10:13-14 (NKJV) So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the LORD, because he did not keep the word of the LORD, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. But he did not inquire of the LORD; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

That bit of scripture states that God killed Saul to remove him from his position as king in order to replace him with David. It may be that God removed him (by allowing the enemies of Israel to kill him) because of the path down which he had started by consulting a medium. God may have "brought him home" before he got lost.

David was also failed to keep the word of the Lord by committing adultery with Bathsheba and murdering her husband, Uriah who had been one of his faithful "mighty men" during the time Saul was trying to kill him.
It really does not address Saul's eternal condition.

We don't have a sound basis by which we may pronounce judgment upon King Saul. IMHO

iakov the fool

I couldn't agree more.
Good post.

 

[FreeGrace]

That is not an answer.
I asked if English was a second language for you because your answers seem to be based on a confusion of that was posted and to which you responded. They often do not "connect." That repeated disconnect between what was posted and your responses have led me to ask the question.

Then cite the post #s to show this confusion.

So it is a serious question since a candid answer to it would provide information which may assist in the manner in which comments addressed to you are formed thus facilitating communication.
It is not condescending, it is a serious question.
It is a question which you seem reluctant to answer.

I'll wait to answer AFTER evidence is provided to show this so-called confusion that you've noted.

The only confusion that I'm aware of was who said what, to which I responded to the wrong "who".

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, in death.

I will point out once again that any prophet of God would NOT have placed any emphasis on the grave, or just physical death. That's just a cop-out to what Samuel was clearly saying.

Every believer in the OT knew about life after death and I've shown Scripture that backs that up.

How could Jesus refer to "Moses and the prophets" regarding eternal life to the Pharisees if neither Moses or the major prophets knew about eternal life? That makes zero sense to me.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's a Talmudic tale that talks about Moses going to Heaven.

In the meantime can you please show us a reputable anthropology report that refutes the timeline I have related as to beliefs in Sheol before beliefs about Heaven became clear?

Something that comes from someone other than you.

Wasn't what Jesus said important enough? He referred to "Moses and the prophets" regarding having eternal life to the Pharisees. Moses existed around 1400 BC, while Daniel lived around 400 BC. That's reputable enough for me. But I can't speak for others.

 

[JohnDB]

Wasn't what Jesus said important enough? He referred to "Moses and the prophets" regarding having eternal life to the Pharisees. Moses existed around 1400 BC, while Daniel lived around 400 BC. That's reputable enough for me. But I can't speak for others.

Again another whole tamale.

You asked the question as to what David and Saul believed in if it wasn't Heaven. I answered you accurately. I added proof and a biblical timeline of when beliefs changed and why.

I'm sorry you don't like the answer.

But scripture isn't going to show a different answer to your original question. An anthropology report might based upon a more recent excavation...but I haven't seen anything like that yet. They have been doing some digs...but they don't believe them to be related to this subject.

 

[FreeGrace]

You asked the question as to what David and Saul believed in if it wasn't Heaven. I answered you accurately.

I recall the comment about no one knew anything of heaven or rewards before Daniel. Which doesn't explain Heb 11:26 at all.

I added proof and a biblical timeline of when beliefs changed and why.

Meaning, Daniel?

I'm sorry you don't like the answer.

It's not what I like or don't like. It's about what Scripture says.

But scripture isn't going to show a different answer to your original question.

I know what the Scripture says. Saul joined Samuel after physical death.

 

[Jim Parker]

I will point out once again that any prophet of God would NOT have placed any emphasis on the grave, or just physical death.

And you base that very personal opinion on what?
At the time of Saul and Samuel, the concepts of the resurrection and eternal life had not yet been revealed.
There was a universal, extra-Biblical, belief that the spirit continued after the death of the body. That belief is not the equivalent of the Biblical teaching of eternal life.

Every believer in the OT knew about life after death and I've shown Scripture that backs that up.

So did every Greek Philosopher. So what?

How could Jesus refer to "Moses and the prophets" regarding eternal life to the Pharisees if neither Moses or the major prophets knew about eternal life?

(1) He didn't refer to Moses and the prophets when speaking to the pharisees about eternal life. There is no such scripture.
(2) There are two places where Jesus makes reference to "Moses and the Prophets."
A. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, where Jesus makes reference to Moses and the prophets, there is no reference to eternal life. (Luke 16:19-31)
B. At Luke Luke 24:27 and 44 Jesus makes no reference to eternal life.
These are the 4 times when Jesus referred to Moses and the prophets and he said exactly NOTHING about eternal life and he wasn't talking to the pharisees.
(3) There is absolutely no evidence in scripture that Moses had any conception of eternal life. The promise to Israel for keeping the Law was that they would "live long and prosper" in the land which God gave them. (Deu 5:33; 11:8-9) But there was absolutely no suggestion of eternal life.

That makes zero sense to me.

It makes no sense because, when you aren't creating your own scripture, (like Jesus referring to Moses and the prophets while talking to the pharisees) you are making a hash of actual scripture by mixing the revelations of the Gospel with the revelations of the Law.


iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Then cite the post #s to show this confusion.

Pick practically anything you have posted.

I'll wait to answer AFTER evidence is provided to show this so-called confusion that you've noted.
The only confusion that I'm aware of was who said what, to which I responded to the wrong "who".

Do you really think that no one could easily see through that dodge?
Please just answer the question instead of trying to dodge it.
Yes, English is a second language for me.
No, English is not a second language for me.
pick one

 

[Jim Parker]

We do have a sound basis by which to know where Saul's soul went after he died on the battlefield. He joined Samuel.

ANd exactly were was Samuel?

 

[Sinthesis]

ANd exactly were was Samuel?

And which direction would Saul go to be with Samuel?
And which direction would one go to be with Jesus?