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wondering said:
Sometimes we're so afraid to judge that we'll just let anything go by.
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That is the thought that started my posts. A false fear of any judgement has been preached.

I have heard the correct judgement method in your posts.

Church discipline starts in private, and stays private if possible. All this is not to start a self righteous campaign against sin, but to allow a humble work toward maturity in Christ Jesus.

We live in flesh tending toward sin, but we are encouraged to put the works of the flesh to death (the correct way - which I still deal with).

eddif
 
dianegcook said:
Welcome to the board
index.php
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I'm resigning from the forums and coming back as a newbie just so I can get one of these.
(Don't tell anyone, but I'll be Phart -- short for Phillip Hart, my real name. Our little secret :wink).
 
dianegcook said:
I also would like to say,
Those without sin, let them cast the first stone.

I do however, call it discernment, not judgment.
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The law cast stones. On the evidence of two or three. Has everyone turned in their sack of stones?

Grace tries to restore folks. We may have to set limits when / if we ever turn one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. Grace folks confess sins and depend on what Jesus did for their righteousness. Our weapons are no longer carnal.

eddif
 
wondering said:
Childeye said something that made me think of this:

I agree that it's okay to judge (in God's manner or things) but not to condemn. What do I mean by God's things?
You know, like it's not nice to say. Look at those old shoes he's wearing. For more reasons than one: Be nice to everyone, you never know what they're going through - would be one of them.

However, it would be okay to say that someone stealing is doing something wrong and it's okay to judge them in the sense that they're breaking a law of God. Sometimes we're so afraid to judge that we'll just let anything go by.
The bible doesn't tell us not to judge. In fact, it tells us to judge and to reprimand in a gentle way. As in Luke 17:3. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him. To know if someone is sinning, you have to be able to judge. We're so afraid to judge nowadays that we're willing to let everything just pass by. People will often say not to be judgmental. Well, why not? Am I not to be able to judge if my son wants to hang out with bad company? If I know the friend is bad company, then I'm judging!

But here we tread dangerous waters. Some people are so judgmental, they've taken it upon themselves to change the world and thus turn many off to God. So wisdom come in here somewhere.

It's the fear of judging I'm addressing here. I think righteous judgment, tempered with humility is just fine. As long as we realize that we're sinners too and are just trying to eliminate sin from effecting our lives or maybe even keeping it from proliferating any more since accepting it and NOT judging does cause proliferation.

I hope to have said judgements are necessary, but only in agreement with heaven.
and
If we just agree with God we are not judging of ourselves, but agree with God.

Oh. And grace must reign supreme in our hearts. Or we fall under the Law.

Wondering
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I often speak of semantics. That is because a single word can have two contrary meanings. "I don't deserve my wife". Am I speaking with a spirit that is good or evil? So it is with the word "judge". There is wicked judgment and there is righteous judgment. We are going to judge. Even to say "I won't judge", is in fact a judgment. But to be righteous in our judgment, we must not be hypocritical. To judge after the flesh is carnal discernment and is simply projecting our own inadequacies upon others. Hence we must return good for evil and love our enemies.

I like what you say here: I think righteous judgment, tempered with humility is just fine.
But this part I would like to further comment on: since accepting it and NOT judging does cause proliferation.

Again there are semantics and there is a good "accepting of sin" and a bad "accepting of sin".

My comment is that eliminating sin may be more about accepting that we are all weak in the flesh to accomplish that which is good in the sight of God, and therefore mercy and understanding are in order. In fact it could be called sin, to not have mercy and understanding.

"Accepting sin" is a problematic phrase. For example God forbears with our sin, He knows our weakness, and yet His strength is made perfect in our weakness. This doesn't make sin right, but offences are going to occur, and they will test our love and patience, which is where we also can make atonement. Anyone who is enslaved by sin, we should feel sorry for, if indeed through Christ we have escaped. We must point the sinner to Christ. We cannot do this if we speak as if sin is not an enslavement, which only the Truth of Christ can remedy.

I therefore don't believe that sin proliferates through acceptance. According to scripture, sin proliferates because of the deception of vanity. Notice that the law doesn't accept sin, nor did the Pharisees. Yet the law is the strength of sin. And the Pharisees in their righteousness, knew not the righteousness that comes by grace through faith. If the proliferation of sin could be eliminated by not accepting it, then what is the point of Romans 1, or the Gospel for that matter? Sin marks the absence of God. We need to accept that.
 
eddif said:
I think I will restate the way I would say the thoughts.
Men became abominations and God turned them over to their condition. (Consumed with their condition to practice the list of things)
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But this is not what scripture says. If we were already abominations, then God has nothing to turn us over to since we are already there. Notice that we did not glorify God as God. We were unthankful to God. We thought ourselves wise and became fools. We became vain and our foolish hearts were darkened. No one can Love with a dark heart. This mimics Satan, where sin was Fathered.

People see God reveal his wrath against sin and still choose to be overtaken by those sins;
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God's wrath is against those who suppress the Truth. We don't choose to be overtaken by the listed sins. The Truth is, we're all sinners. And why? Even because we thought that through the knowledge of good and evil we become like God. What is this knowledge that puffs up one so as to scrutinize the nakedness of one another? God never did this.
Romans 1:32
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
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I'm going to point out that in context, this is understood to be the end condition after being given over to a reprobate mind. God has condemned us to death, unless we acknowledge Him as the Spirit that makes a man righteous on the inside. If we could overcome sin without Him, then how does one choose to have or not have a vile passion?

We are to see the condition of our flesh as wretched, and not glory in our fallen state.
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2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me,My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

When we forgive all others who sin against us, even because we believe they cannot help themselves, then we will have the Spirit of Christ to bear our own cross in proper atonement.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 
childeye said:
But this is not what scripture says. If we were already abominations, then God has nothing to turn us over to since we are already there. Notice that we did not glorify God as God. We were unthankful to God. We thought ourselves wise and became fools. We became vain and our foolish hearts were darkened. No one can Love with a dark heart. This mimics Satan, where sin was Fathered.

God's wrath is against those who suppress the Truth. We don't choose to be overtaken by the listed sins. The Truth is, we're all sinners. And why? Even because we thought that through the knowledge of good and evil we become like God. What is this knowledge that puffs up one so as to scrutinize the nakedness of one another? God never did this.

I'm going to point out that in context, this is understood to be the end condition after being given over to a reprobate mind. God has condemned us to death, unless we acknowledge Him as the Spirit that makes a man righteous on the inside. If we could overcome sin without Him, then how does one choose to have or not have a vile passion?


2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me,My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

When we forgive all others who sin against us, even because we believe they cannot help themselves, then we will have the Spirit of Christ to bear our own cross in proper atonement.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
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Gosh Childeye,

There's almost too much going on here and we could practically pick at each other's individual sentences, which would be quite a chore!

But in your above post, I THINK you're getting forgiveness mixed up with judgment?

You speak of discernment. If you're discerning something, you're trying to figure it out. You're even, maybe, trying to decide which of two roads is the correct one. If you're doing this, you're judging. I'll agree with everything you say but I disagree with the proliferation problem. Is this the thread where I said:

A man who accepts everything
believes in nothing

So, yes. I DO believe judgement is necessary. A righteous judgement just as you and Eddif and others have stated. Let's take smoking for instance. I can judge that it's a bad habit. Our bodies are a temple and nothing impure should enter that temple. Am I a legalist? NO. If someone is a christian and smokes, I'm not looking down my nose at them. We each have our road to take and this is a journey and we'll each make it to whatever marker the Lord has for us. But does that not allow me to say that smoking is bad for you? And to say to my friend, I wish you wouldn't smoke!?? In a nice way...

Is it wrong for me to judge that divorce is horrible. That it leaves children depressed, unable to cope with life, and wondering what it's all about - seeing their mother with a different man and their father with a different woman.
Isn't ACCEPTING all this, just going to make it be easier? Isn't it better to say, I know it's going to happen and there might even be a good reason (sometimes), but it's WRONG. For the individual persons involved, for the children involved and for society as a whole.

I just want to repeat that I did say in my original post that humility and grace are necessary ingredients. And self-righteousness is always a danger due to our sin nature.

Would you not agree with the above?

Wondering
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Yes, you did give a special one. Christmas '14 I think it was. Which, since this is now '16, was two years ago. So I was overdue for one. Thank you.
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Okay. Jethro Bodine.

I'm starting to understand what it means to be a Jethroite.

I'm willing!

Wondering
 
Isaiah 6:1 KJV
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

First and foremost this is about Jesus being sent to humanity. When the great commission was given it included us and the gospel message.
Notice:
Confession of the Lord
Confession of our shortcomings
Cloud (see through a glass darkly)

Plus the gospel.

eddif
 
wondering said:
Okay. Jethro Bodine.

I'm starting to understand what it means to be a Jethroite.

I'm willing!

Wondering
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So you think it's okay to judge people who smoke?
In a nice way?
Well aren't you a nice little critical Christian.

Did you know that drinking soda and diet soda has now been determined to be more dangerous for your health than smoking cigarettes?
Are you ready to start judging them in a nice way?

And the list goes on.....
 
wondering said:
Okay. Jethro Bodine.

I'm starting to understand what it means to be a Jethroite.

I'm willing!

Wondering
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You will not regret becoming a Jethroite.
But be forewarned: You will experience severe persecution, particularly from jealous and envious Tamasians.
But be strong. We shall overcome.:idea
 
eddif said:
Isaiah 6:1 KJV
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

First and foremost this is about Jesus being sent to humanity. When the great commission was given it included us and the gospel message.
Notice:
Confession of the Lord
Confession of our shortcomings
Cloud (see through a glass darkly)

Plus the gospel.

eddif
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Eddif,

I like no. 5. Because the closer one gets to God, the more one sees sin. It's a good thing to be sensitive to sin. It's not a bad thing. We've been desensitized to too much. When your eyes have seen The King, and you sense how pure Jesus was, all else starts to look very impure. Woe is me.

Could you expound a bit on your item no. 6 in post 29?

Wondering
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
So you think it's okay to judge people who smoke?
In a nice way?
Well aren't you a nice little critical Christian.

Did you know that drinking soda and diet soda has now been determined to be more dangerous for your health than smoking cigarettes?
Are you ready to start judging them in a nice way?

And the list goes on.....
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RolloTomasi,

Have you changed your avatar?
Are you trying to confuse me?
Or are you just showing off?
Enquiring minds want to know.

Don't go getting silly on me. I have a feeling we're both too old for this kind of stuff.

Fat is bad for you too. And salt. And sugar. But did you know that the ONE thing you could do right now to help yourself not get one of the most frequent cancers is to STOP SMOKING? I think God would be happy if one quit.

So let's see. Where does it end?

I accept smoking.
I accept marijuana.
I accept cocaine.
I accept heroine.

And the list goes on.

Wondering
P. S. I repeat that I'm not a legalist, but I do like to take a stand.
 
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