Bible Study Law: A Fresh Look

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PHIL121 said:
Jason said:
Nice one... :lol: Israel WAS IN FACT in the wilderness, simply translate the word ecclesia/called-out assembly, but this is in contrast with the N.T. ecclesia.

Sure, Israel was in the wilderness for 40 years, but they WERE delievered to the Promised Land. And they whole history of the OT shows how they were rewarded for their Faith, and punished for breaking from it.

I don't disagree. I believe those who love God and walk according to Holy Spirit live the revelation given them will bare the fruit of the Spirit: Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith, Meekness, and Temperance. We are to abide in Him and the fruit of the Spirit is never mentioned as giving the ability to follow the Law.

Quote: "Every believer is regarded by God as alive from the dead, to bring forth fruit [not works] unto God. The law only deals with a man as long as he lives; never after he is dead. ‘For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God.’ And that is not at all what is said of us after a ‘second blessing,’ … or any other step of imaginary perfection. We begin with it… I am identified with Christ dead and risen. It is no longer the law dealing with me to try if it can get any good out of me. I have relinquished all by receiving the Lord Jesus, and I take my stand in Him dead and risen again … as one alive from the dead, to yield myself to God.

"The Gospel supposes that, good and holy and perfect as the law of God is, it is entirely powerless either to justify or sanctify. It cannot in any way make the old nature better; neither is it the rule of life for the new nature. The old man is not subject to the law, and the new man does not need it. The new creature has another object before it, and another power acts upon it, in order to produce what is lovely and acceptable to Godâ€â€Christ the object, realized by the power of the Holy Spirit." (Galatians, pp. 125, 137.)


Peace
 
Jason said:
"The Gospel supposes that, good and holy and perfect as the law of God is, it is entirely powerless either to justify or sanctify. It cannot in any way make the old nature better; neither is it the rule of life for the new nature. The old man is not subject to the law, and the new man does not need it. The new creature has another object before it, and another power acts upon it, in order to produce what is lovely and acceptable to Godâ€â€Christ the object, realized by the power of the Holy Spirit." (Galatians, pp. 125, 137.)[/color]

Peace

Ah, but the redundancy for the 'law abrogator' still exists. The 'new man' will not steal, kill, commit adultery or worship other gods then anyone still obeying the 10 commandments. If he does so, he has broken the law and still needs a Savior.

The redundancy is that the law of love is the 10 commandments and the spirit led Christian is still bound by obedience, not out of obligation or hope for justification, but because they love Christ, "If ye love me, keep my commandments'. He is still bound to a law, but merely a higher law embodied by the 10 commandments.

Face it...the only issue that truly exists for law abrogators is the issue of the Sabbath. If the other 9 are still valid whether in stone or in the heart, then the 4th commandment still is as well. But instead of accepting this, law abrogators call Christ the Sabbath and ignore the internalization of that law as well.

If there is no law and no sabbath, there is no commandment to kill, steal or commit adultery and these are acceptable. If they exist in the law of love, written in our hearts as Christ said the 10 commandments do, then the Sabbath is also written along with them

This smorgasbord method of cut and paste theology is laughable. No wonder Catholics and Orthodox laugh at Protestantism. Making a mockery of sola scriptura seems to be the norm for many Protestant faiths.
 
Prove 'which' day of the week (and name it), that Jews held as the sabbath? You can't do it before Ex. 16. A quick reading of Hebrews will show you, Christ is our everything even our Sabbath rest. You're a Judaizer unwilling to see progress in the revelation from God and maintain a carnal legalistic idea of salvation.

John 6:27-29 is an interesting passage showing the balance between God's working and man's working when it comes to salvation. The Lord told them to labour or work for the right kind of food (v.27). They then asked, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" The Lord did not say, "You should do NOTHING!" Instead He said, "You must BELIEVE!" (v.29).
 
"Run, John, run! The Law commands!
But gives me neither feet nor hands.
Far grander news the Gospel (grace) brings:
It bids me fly and gives me wings!"

– John Bunyan
 
Jason said:
Prove 'which' day of the week (and name it), that Jews held as the sabbath? You can't do it before Ex. 16. A quick reading of Hebrews will show you, Christ is our everything even our Sabbath rest. You're a Judaizer unwilling to see progress in the revelation from God and maintain a carnal legalistic idea of salvation.

Sputnik: Why would you ask a question that has such an obvious answer? Then, as now, the Jews kept the seventh-day Sabbath ...that's Saturday to you and me. That was the day God blessed and sanctified at Creation (WAY before Exodus 16) - evidently for NOTHING according to mainstream Christianity.

Jesus Christ did NOT take the place of the holiest day of the week. And, Hebrews says nothing of the kind.

If one is a Judaizer for obedience to the 4th-commandment, then all who remain obedient to the commands 1-3, and 5-10 are Judaizers also. Moreover, I truly HOPE that professed Christians ARE adhering to these commands, whether they were 'abolished' or not. Obedience to the first four, by the way, are what sets apart a Christian from a nonchristian. Even many nonchristians keep commands 5-10! So, how many Judaizers do we have participating on this forum?


Jason: "...unwilling to see progress in the revelation from God and maintain a carnal legalistic idea of salvation ..."

Remaining obedient to God's commands make one a carnal legalist? Oh, I don't think so. What irks you and others so much, Jason, are not commands 1-3 or commandments 5-10 but commandment #4 ...that's right, isn't it? The Sabbath is a thorn in the side of the majority of (educated) Christians. If not for the 4th-commandment, there would be NO discussion surrounding the issue of the Ten Commandments, nor "the progress in the revelation from God." By the way, Jason, other than 'freeing up' present-day Christians from obedience to God, what 'progress' are you referring to?
 
I don't think the question is, or ever has been, whether or not the law is valid. The law is valid, and does apply to all.

What Christ did was take away the ability of the law to hold us to death. He did not change the penalty for breaking the law. The difference is that the law could previously hold one to eternal death. Christ removed the ability of the law to do that.

In other words, all of us will still die for breaking the law. However, Christ has taken away the ability of the law to hold us eternally to death, as Christ will raise us from death and give us eternal life. Therefore, we are to adhere to the commandments or pay the penalty for sin, which is death.

God Bless!
 
Thou shalt realize that the book of Genesis does not contain the word "Sabbath" and nowhere is the Sabbath day commandment found and given to the Church, instead, it says the Sabbath was abolished!

Quote:
  • If every man from Adam to Moses kept the Sabbath, why is the Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath found in the ten commandments, never found in the book of Genesis? Why is no one before Moses ever being told to keep the Sabbath. Why are there no examples of anyone keeping the Sabbath?
    Why were the Patriarchs never instructed about he Sabbath, but were instructed regarding: offerings: Gen 4:3-4, Altars Gen 8:20, Priests: Gen 14:18, Tithes: Gen 14:20, Circumcision: Gen 17:10, Marriage: Gen 2:24 & Gen 34:9. Why would God leave out the "all important" Sabbath command?
    If the fact that God wrote the 10 commandments on stone proves they are forever, then whatever happened to the two stone tablets that God gave Adam at the beginning of time? Why is Moses the first one to see a stone tablet written by the finger of God?

It should also be noted, the Greatest commandment was not even listed in the 10 commandments, look it up for yourself.

Remaining obedient to God's commands make one a carnal legalist?

Of course, that's not what I wrote but you twisted my words like you twist the Scripture.

Quote: Jesus quite clearly taught that he was equal to God. This was the clear impression that Jesus listeners had of Jesus' teaching, and they wanted to stone him for it.

Comments: It is important to note that Jesus breaking the sabbath was the first recorded controversy that John records in the single most important chapter in the gospel of John to prove the deity of Christ. The sabbath controversy allowed Jesus to give one of the most compete statements of his divine nature. No where does the Bible say that Jesus did not break the sabbath.

Time to shake the dust off my heels.
 
Jason said:
Thou shalt realize that the book of Genesis does not contain the word "Sabbath" and nowhere is the Sabbath day commandment found and given to the Church, instead, it says the Sabbath was abolished!

Sputnik: Tell that to every mainstream Christian who tomorrow (Sunday) will be keeping what they believe is the Sabbath Day ...those who don't just follow a tradition like sheep, that is. Many of them REALLY believe that honoring Sunday as a 'holy day' is in keeping with the 4th-commandment ...absolutely true!

And NOWHERE in the scriptures, Jason, will you find that the Sabbath of the seventh-day of Creation was abolished! That is an absolute lie that the RCC still perpetrates on mainstream Christianity to this very day. They believe that they had - and HAVE - the authority to abolish and institute 'holy days' as they see fit. And you, Jason, give them every reason to make them believe that they can do so!


Jason: If every man from Adam to Moses kept the Sabbath, why is the Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath found in the ten commandments, never found in the book of Genesis?

Sputnik: It is ...it's found in Genesis in the part where God 'rested' on the 7th-day. The term 'rest' is fully associated with the name 'Sabbath'.

Jason: Why is no one before Moses ever being told to keep the Sabbath.

Sputnik: Why is no one before Moses ever being told about murder, stealing, adultery, and so forth? Countless people were even punished severely for committing these sins, yet we are not even told that they were aware of them. One can only conclude that they DID know what commands they were breaking to warrant God's wrath in the first place. The Bible is not clear on MANY issues. This is just another of them.

Jason: Why are there no examples of anyone keeping the Sabbath?

Sputnik: Um ...in the Bible there are numerous examples of those who kept the Sabbath ...you're kidding, right?

Why were the Patriarchs never instructed about the Sabbath, but were instructed regarding: offerings: Gen 4:3-4, Altars Gen 8:20, Priests: Gen 14:18, Tithes: Gen 14:20, Circumcision: Gen 17:10, Marriage: Gen 2:24 & Gen 34:9. Why would God leave out the "all important" Sabbath command?

Sputnik: Mysteries, mysteries. Will we ever know? You can bet your boots, however, that God did not bless and sanctify the 7th-day for absolutely no reason. And, the mere fact that He did so certainly DOES make the Sabbath command an "all important" one.

Jason: If the fact that God wrote the 10 commandments on stone proves they are forever, then whatever happened to the two stone tablets that God gave Adam at the beginning of time? Why is Moses the first one to see a stone tablet written by the finger of God?

Sputnik: I give up. Does this alter anything in regard to the issue of debate?

Jason: It should also be noted, the Greatest commandment was not even listed in the 10 commandments, look it up for yourself.

Sputnik: The first 4 commandments ARE the greatest commandment, Jason ...to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. That's why they were given top priority on the list of commandments.

Previous Sputnik: Remaining obedient to God's commands make one a carnal legalist?

Jason: Of course, that's not what I wrote but you twisted my words like you twist the Scripture.

Sputnik: I'm twisting the scriptures because I believe in obedience to God's commands!? And how did I twist your words? You're saying that one who honors (specifically the 4th-command of) the Ten Commandments is a carnal legalist. How many ways can one interpret that statement?

Jason: Jesus quite clearly taught that he was equal to God. This was the clear impression that Jesus listeners had of Jesus' teaching, and they wanted to stone him for it.

Comments: It is important to note that Jesus breaking the sabbath was the first recorded controversy that John records in the single most important chapter in the gospel of John to prove the deity of Christ. The sabbath controversy allowed Jesus to give one of the most compete statements of his divine nature. No where does the Bible say that Jesus did not break the sabbath.


Sputnik: Huh ...did NOT break the Sabbath? So, is the implication here that Jesus DID break the Sabbath? No He didn't. He just didn't (and INTENTIONALLY SO) keep the day as rigidly and as legalistically as the Pharisees but He certainly honored the Sabbath as it should be honored. The Sabbath is supposed to be a delight, remember?

Jason: Time to shake the dust off my heels.

Sputnik: Excuses, excuses ...an oldie but a goodie. The heat from the kitchen must be getting to you.
 
This post is basicly for one purpose....to fulfill Revelation 12:17..... Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. satan hates the law of God because of the commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) being the Righteousness of God, (Psalms 119:172).
 
There is no way you can 'prove' the 7th day of our week is the Sabbath BEFORE Exodus 16...no way. You appeal to tradition which is a fault in your logic see Apologetics forum.

Let's start fresh: quotes taken from Miles J. Standford.

The Contents of Israel's New Covenant:

Forgiven -- "For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer. 31:34).

Regenerated -- "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh" (Ezek. 37:26).

Kingdom Law -- "I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts" (Jer. 31:33).

Indwelling Spirit -- "And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My ordinances, and do them" (Ezek. 36:27).

Possession of the Land -- "Behold, I will gather them out of all countries to which I have driven them. Yea, I will rejoice over them in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with My whole heart and with My whole soul" (Jer. 32:37,41).

Agreed?

MOSES OUT! -- The author of Hebrews used Israel's New Covenant to show these converts that the Mosaic Covenant was to be replaced:

"But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the Mediator of a better covenant [grace], which was established upon better promises ['I will"]. For if the first [Mosaic] covenant had been faultless ['weak through the flesh' Rom. 8:3], then should no place have been sought for the second."

"For finding fault with this, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Heb. 8:6-8).

"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, which, My covenant, they broke" (Jer. 31:32).

"In that He saith, A new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and groweth old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).

Wm. R. Newell gives the proper conclusion concerning these covenants:

The great word as to the former covenant is: "He hath made the first old ... nigh unto vanishing away." It vanished indeed a few years later--in A.D. 70--when the Temple was sacked and burned, and Jerusalem destroyed by Titus.

While place is foretold for the "house of Israel and the house of Judah" in this Epistle of Hebrews, yet lay it to heart: The old Mosaic Covenant is gone (vs. 9,13); and the new covenant not yet come.

The author is writing to Hebrew believers with whose fathers God has made a "covenant," and with which nation He will, by and by, at the Messiah's return to Israel, make a "new" covenant, saying, "And this is the covenant from Me unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Rom. 11:27).

These Hebrew believers were called, then, to face the fact that the old covenant, with the Law principle of blessing, had been set aside. We behold national Israel today without a covenant, "regarded not" by Jehovah!

And so we turn to Hebrews 13:20, and "in the Blood of the Eternal Covenant" between the God of peace and the Lord Jesus, we find ourselves, with true Hebrew believers, all "partakers of a heavenly calling."

And it is the Blood of that Everlasting Covenant which we celebrate when we gather at the Lord's table; so that all hope in man has passed away forever; and so has all hope in Divine Law to be fulfilled by man as the "condition of blessing" (Hebrews, Verse by Verse, p. 259).

The purpose and burden of Hebrews is to draw believers away from anything of earthly Israel, and to establish them in their heavenly position in Christ, and that by the "Blood of the Everlasting Covenant." He would never point them to Israel's earthly New Covenant for anything heavenly!

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the Holiest by the Blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say , His flesh. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith..." (Heb. 10:19,20,22).

The Church isn't part of the new covenant with Israel.

EACH CHOSEN -- "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4).

EACH CALLED -- "Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ before the world began" (2 Tim. 1:9).

" ... called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom. 8:29,30).

HEART SECRET -- From eternity past, through the ages and generations of time, the Father kept the Bride secretly hidden in His heart of love. Like a mighty jet stream, high above recorded history and Scripture, all unknown to man, the Father finally brought her in a secret descent to the Cross. Not only the descent, but the Cross itself was secret:

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ages unto our glory: which none of the princes of this age knew; for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor. 2:7,8).

SINS FORGIVEN -- There, on the Cross, all of the sins that would ever be committed by a member of the Body, were forgiven. "In whom we have redemption through His Blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7).

SIN CONDEMNED -- Adamic sin was not forgiven. Rather, on the Cross it was judged, condemned, and crucified. "God, sending His own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." "Knowing this, that out old [Adamic] man was crucified with Him" (Rom. 8:3; 6:6).

IDENTIFICATION -- Every member of the Bride-to-be, in Adam, was judicially identified with Christ on the Cross. There He was made to be sin--our sin; hence we were identified with Him in His death to sin. "For He hath made Him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us." "I have been crucified with Christ" (2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 2:20).

BURIED WITH HIM -- In our identification with Him in His death to sin, we were buried with Him. "Therefore, we were buried with Him" (Rom. 6:4).

DEATH-SEPARATION -- In order to be raised from the dead, resurrected, as a new creation in the Last Adam, it was necessary for us to be separated from the first Adam by death. "Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; old [first Adam] things are [positionally] passed away; behold, all things are become [positionally] new." "Likewise, reckon ye also yourselves to have died indeed unto sin, but to be alive unto God in Jesus Christ" (2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 6:11).

ASCENDED BRIDE -- Having separated the Bride from Adam and recreated her in Christ, the Father raised her to the heavenlies--each member of the Body of Christ. "Even when we were dead in sins [God] hath made us alive [recreated] together with Christ ... and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:5,6).

THE BLOOD -- The Bride was redeemed by "the precious Blood of Christ" (1 Pet. 1: 19). The Bride was "made nigh by the Blood of Christ" (Eph. 2:13). The Bride was positioned in Christ--"hidden with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3). The Bride has "boldness to enter into the Holiest by the Blood of Jesus" (Heb. 10:19).

PENTECOST -- Soon the Spirit of God brought her to earth again, like a rushing mighty wind, to begin her experiential history--the Bride growing up incognito, in the world, but not of it. "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come ... suddenly there came a sound from heaven like a rushing mighty wind. ..and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:1,2,4).

THE HOLY SPIRIT -- From that time forth the Spirit of Christ indwells all who believe--all of the chosen, elect, called members of the Body of Christ. Each believer is baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ--in union with Christ. "For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one Body" (1 Cor. 12:13).

IN CHRIST -- "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (1 Cor. 12:27; Gal. 3:27).

CHRIST IN YOU -- Our union with Christ is reciprocal--we are in Him, and He is in us. "Christ in you, the hope of glory." "At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you" (Col. 1:27; John 14:20).

JOINT-HEIRS -- Each member of the Body of Christ is an heir with Christ. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." "The Spirit beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." "And if children, then heirs--heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8:14,16,17).

TOTAL ONENESS -- Our life in Christ is complete--total oneness with Him. "For he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit." "And ye are complete in Him." "Accepted in the Beloved." "For we are members of His Body, of His flesh, and of His bones" (1 Cor. 6:17; Col. 2:10; Eph. 1:6; 5:30).

RAPTURE -- In the Father's appointed time, when He has completed the Body of Christ, He will again take her aloft--this time for the Bride to meet her Bridegroom in the air. It is then that her eternal position will become experiential condition.

"When He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." "For our citizenship is in heaven, from where also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall change our lowly body, that it may be fashioned like His glorious body" (1 John 3:2; Phil. 3:20,21).

SECOND ADVENT -- Ere long the Bridegroom-King will bring His all-glorious Bride down from heaven to reign forever with Him over the earth. "When Christ, who is our Life shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory." "They shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." "And they shall reign for ever and ever" (Col. 3:4; Rev. 20:6; 22:5).

http://withchrist.org/MJS/twonew.htm

That's where I stand, sorry about the dust comment.

jason
 
Biblical Orthodoxy said:
There is no way you can 'prove' the 7th day of our week is the Sabbath BEFORE Exodus 16...no way. You appeal to tradition which is a fault in your logic see Apologetics forum.

There's a lot that can't be proven in the bible. However, we are told that Abraham walked in God's commandments and statutes, we see a direct link between Exodus 16 appealing to he creation Sabbath. It makes no sense for God to needlessly create a day of rest at the beginning for fellowship with man and not command it to be followed when God is the same God of man as He appealed to the Israelites. "Honor the Sabbath of the Lord thy God that it may be a sign between us'

Adam needed a day of cessation just as much, especially after sin.

Biblical Orthodoxy said:
"But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the Mediator of a better covenant [grace], which was established upon better promises ['I will"]. For if the first [Mosaic] covenant had been faultless ['weak through the flesh' Rom. 8:3], then should no place have been sought for the second."

"For finding fault with this, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Heb. 8:6-8).

The appropriate working of Hebrews is "for finding fault with THEM". A new covenant was needed not because of faulty terms of the covenant (to assume so is to make God worthy of creating mistakes and a burdenous and false covenant to begin with) but because of the disobedience of the Israelites.

"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, which, My covenant, they broke" (Jer. 31:32).

God has promised to write it in their hearts all the while still requiring that they follow the laws. The difference is in the TERMS of the covenant, not the CONTENTS.

Notice Hebrews 8:6:

"But now hath he obtained a MORE EXELLENT MINISTRY, by how much He is a mediator of A BETTER COVENANT, which was etablished upon BETTER PROMISES"

The issue wasn't the law, but the terms of the covenant. It is no longer us saying as the Israelites did 'All that you command WE will do" Now the mediator is Christ and through the spirit of love and grace, it is us, changed man, a new creature that keeps the law through Christ by his empowering spirit.

If we fail, we have an advocate with the Father that forgives us our sins without sacrifice as He has already done it.

This is the new covenant, not an abolishing of the commandments but a new approach to obedience.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Nay we establish the law!"
"The law is holy, just and good"

Strange things for Paul to say for such a vehement supporter of NO LAW for the Christian as many try to make him out to be.

Ephesians 2 and James 2 refer to specific commandments and refer to them as "commandments". A strange thing to do when the law is no longer binding.

The problem is a gross misunderstanding of what the New Covenant is and the distiniction between those laws that Christ fulfilled and those that are part of God's moral government. and righteous standard for His people.
 
Biblical Orthodoxy said:
There is no way you can 'prove' the 7th day of our week is the Sabbath BEFORE Exodus 16...no way.
May I suggest to read the 4th commandment...as it says the "Remember'...then goes on, to tell us when the 7th day sabbath was created (Exodus 20:8-11).
Rmemeber as to the fact of pointing a person to look back at when it started.

Let's start fresh: quotes taken from Miles J. Standford.

The Contents of Israel's New Covenant:

Forgiven -- "For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer. 31:34).

Regenerated -- "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh" (Ezek. 37:26).

Kingdom Law -- "I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts" (Jer. 31:33).

Indwelling Spirit -- "And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My ordinances, and do them" (Ezek. 36:27).

Possession of the Land -- "Behold, I will gather them out of all countries to which I have driven them. Yea, I will rejoice over them in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with My whole heart and with My whole soul" (Jer. 32:37,41).

Agreed?

MOSES OUT! -- The author of Hebrews used Israel's New Covenant to show these converts that the Mosaic Covenant was to be replaced:

"But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the Mediator of a better covenant [grace], which was established upon better promises ['I will"]. For if the first [Mosaic] covenant had been faultless ['weak through the flesh' Rom. 8:3], then should no place have been sought for the second."

"For finding fault with this, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Heb. 8:6-8).

"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, which, My covenant, they broke" (Jer. 31:32).

"In that He saith, A new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and groweth old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).

Wm. R. Newell gives the proper conclusion concerning these covenants:

The great word as to the former covenant is: "He hath made the first old ... nigh unto vanishing away." It vanished indeed a few years later--in A.D. 70--when the Temple was sacked and burned, and Jerusalem destroyed by Titus.

While place is foretold for the "house of Israel and the house of Judah" in this Epistle of Hebrews, yet lay it to heart: The old Mosaic Covenant is gone (vs. 9,13); and the new covenant not yet come.

The author is writing to Hebrew believers with whose fathers God has made a "covenant," and with which nation He will, by and by, at the Messiah's return to Israel, make a "new" covenant, saying, "And this is the covenant from Me unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Rom. 11:27).

These Hebrew believers were called, then, to face the fact that the old covenant, with the Law principle of blessing, had been set aside. We behold national Israel today without a covenant, "regarded not" by Jehovah!

And so we turn to Hebrews 13:20, and "in the Blood of the Eternal Covenant" between the God of peace and the Lord Jesus, we find ourselves, with true Hebrew believers, all "partakers of a heavenly calling."

And it is the Blood of that Everlasting Covenant which we celebrate when we gather at the Lord's table; so that all hope in man has passed away forever; and so has all hope in Divine Law to be fulfilled by man as the "condition of blessing" (Hebrews, Verse by Verse, p. 259).

The purpose and burden of Hebrews is to draw believers away from anything of earthly Israel, and to establish them in their heavenly position in Christ, and that by the "Blood of the Everlasting Covenant." He would never point them to Israel's earthly New Covenant for anything heavenly!

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the Holiest by the Blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say , His flesh. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith..." (Heb. 10:19,20,22).

The Church isn't part of the new covenant with Israel.

EACH CHOSEN -- "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4).

EACH CALLED -- "Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ before the world began" (2 Tim. 1:9).

" ... called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom. 8:29,30).

HEART SECRET -- From eternity past, through the ages and generations of time, the Father kept the Bride secretly hidden in His heart of love. Like a mighty jet stream, high above recorded history and Scripture, all unknown to man, the Father finally brought her in a secret descent to the Cross. Not only the descent, but the Cross itself was secret:

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ages unto our glory: which none of the princes of this age knew; for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor. 2:7,8).

SINS FORGIVEN -- There, on the Cross, all of the sins that would ever be committed by a member of the Body, were forgiven. "In whom we have redemption through His Blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7).

SIN CONDEMNED -- Adamic sin was not forgiven. Rather, on the Cross it was judged, condemned, and crucified. "God, sending His own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." "Knowing this, that out old [Adamic] man was crucified with Him" (Rom. 8:3; 6:6).

IDENTIFICATION -- Every member of the Bride-to-be, in Adam, was judicially identified with Christ on the Cross. There He was made to be sin--our sin; hence we were identified with Him in His death to sin. "For He hath made Him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us." "I have been crucified with Christ" (2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 2:20).

BURIED WITH HIM -- In our identification with Him in His death to sin, we were buried with Him. "Therefore, we were buried with Him" (Rom. 6:4).

DEATH-SEPARATION -- In order to be raised from the dead, resurrected, as a new creation in the Last Adam, it was necessary for us to be separated from the first Adam by death. "Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; old [first Adam] things are [positionally] passed away; behold, all things are become [positionally] new." "Likewise, reckon ye also yourselves to have died indeed unto sin, but to be alive unto God in Jesus Christ" (2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 6:11).

ASCENDED BRIDE -- Having separated the Bride from Adam and recreated her in Christ, the Father raised her to the heavenlies--each member of the Body of Christ. "Even when we were dead in sins [God] hath made us alive [recreated] together with Christ ... and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:5,6).

THE BLOOD -- The Bride was redeemed by "the precious Blood of Christ" (1 Pet. 1: 19). The Bride was "made nigh by the Blood of Christ" (Eph. 2:13). The Bride was positioned in Christ--"hidden with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3). The Bride has "boldness to enter into the Holiest by the Blood of Jesus" (Heb. 10:19).

PENTECOST -- Soon the Spirit of God brought her to earth again, like a rushing mighty wind, to begin her experiential history--the Bride growing up incognito, in the world, but not of it. "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come ... suddenly there came a sound from heaven like a rushing mighty wind. ..and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:1,2,4).

THE HOLY SPIRIT -- From that time forth the Spirit of Christ indwells all who believe--all of the chosen, elect, called members of the Body of Christ. Each believer is baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ--in union with Christ. "For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one Body" (1 Cor. 12:13).

IN CHRIST -- "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (1 Cor. 12:27; Gal. 3:27).

CHRIST IN YOU -- Our union with Christ is reciprocal--we are in Him, and He is in us. "Christ in you, the hope of glory." "At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you" (Col. 1:27; John 14:20).

JOINT-HEIRS -- Each member of the Body of Christ is an heir with Christ. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." "The Spirit beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." "And if children, then heirs--heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8:14,16,17).

TOTAL ONENESS -- Our life in Christ is complete--total oneness with Him. "For he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit." "And ye are complete in Him." "Accepted in the Beloved." "For we are members of His Body, of His flesh, and of His bones" (1 Cor. 6:17; Col. 2:10; Eph. 1:6; 5:30).

RAPTURE -- In the Father's appointed time, when He has completed the Body of Christ, He will again take her aloft--this time for the Bride to meet her Bridegroom in the air. It is then that her eternal position will become experiential condition.

"When He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." "For our citizenship is in heaven, from where also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall change our lowly body, that it may be fashioned like His glorious body" (1 John 3:2; Phil. 3:20,21).

SECOND ADVENT -- Ere long the Bridegroom-King will bring His all-glorious Bride down from heaven to reign forever with Him over the earth. "When Christ, who is our Life shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory." "They shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." "And they shall reign for ever and ever" (Col. 3:4; Rev. 20:6; 22:5).

http://withchrist.org/MJS/twonew.htm

That's where I stand, sorry about the dust comment.

jason[/quote]
 
Biblical Orthodoxy said:
There is no way you can 'prove' the 7th day of our week is the Sabbath BEFORE Exodus 16...no way.
May I suggest to read the 4th commandment...as it says the "Remember'...then goes on, to tell us when the 7th day sabbath was created (Exodus 20:8-11).
Rmemeber as to the fact of pointing a person to look back at when it started.

Let's start fresh: quotes taken from Miles J. Standford.

The Contents of Israel's New Covenant:

Forgiven -- "For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer. 31:34).

Regenerated -- "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh" (Ezek. 37:26).

Kingdom Law -- "I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts" (Jer. 31:33).

Indwelling Spirit -- "And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My ordinances, and do them" (Ezek. 36:27).

Possession of the Land -- "Behold, I will gather them out of all countries to which I have driven them. Yea, I will rejoice over them in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with My whole heart and with My whole soul" (Jer. 32:37,41).

Agreed?

MOSES OUT! -- The author of Hebrews used Israel's New Covenant to show these converts that the Mosaic Covenant was to be replaced:

"But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the Mediator of a better covenant [grace], which was established upon better promises ['I will"]. For if the first [Mosaic] covenant had been faultless ['weak through the flesh' Rom. 8:3], then should no place have been sought for the second."

"For finding fault with this, He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Heb. 8:6-8).

"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, which, My covenant, they broke" (Jer. 31:32).

"In that He saith, A new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and groweth old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).

Wm. R. Newell gives the proper conclusion concerning these covenants:

The great word as to the former covenant is: "He hath made the first old ... nigh unto vanishing away." It vanished indeed a few years later--in A.D. 70--when the Temple was sacked and burned, and Jerusalem destroyed by Titus.

While place is foretold for the "house of Israel and the house of Judah" in this Epistle of Hebrews, yet lay it to heart: The old Mosaic Covenant is gone (vs. 9,13); and the new covenant not yet come.

The author is writing to Hebrew believers with whose fathers God has made a "covenant," and with which nation He will, by and by, at the Messiah's return to Israel, make a "new" covenant, saying, "And this is the covenant from Me unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Rom. 11:27).

These Hebrew believers were called, then, to face the fact that the old covenant, with the Law principle of blessing, had been set aside. We behold national Israel today without a covenant, "regarded not" by Jehovah!

And so we turn to Hebrews 13:20, and "in the Blood of the Eternal Covenant" between the God of peace and the Lord Jesus, we find ourselves, with true Hebrew believers, all "partakers of a heavenly calling."

And it is the Blood of that Everlasting Covenant which we celebrate when we gather at the Lord's table; so that all hope in man has passed away forever; and so has all hope in Divine Law to be fulfilled by man as the "condition of blessing" (Hebrews, Verse by Verse, p. 259).

The purpose and burden of Hebrews is to draw believers away from anything of earthly Israel, and to establish them in their heavenly position in Christ, and that by the "Blood of the Everlasting Covenant." He would never point them to Israel's earthly New Covenant for anything heavenly!

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the Holiest by the Blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say , His flesh. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith..." (Heb. 10:19,20,22).

The Church isn't part of the new covenant with Israel.

EACH CHOSEN -- "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4).

EACH CALLED -- "Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ before the world began" (2 Tim. 1:9).

" ... called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom. 8:29,30).

HEART SECRET -- From eternity past, through the ages and generations of time, the Father kept the Bride secretly hidden in His heart of love. Like a mighty jet stream, high above recorded history and Scripture, all unknown to man, the Father finally brought her in a secret descent to the Cross. Not only the descent, but the Cross itself was secret:

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ages unto our glory: which none of the princes of this age knew; for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor. 2:7,8).

SINS FORGIVEN -- There, on the Cross, all of the sins that would ever be committed by a member of the Body, were forgiven. "In whom we have redemption through His Blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7).

SIN CONDEMNED -- Adamic sin was not forgiven. Rather, on the Cross it was judged, condemned, and crucified. "God, sending His own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." "Knowing this, that out old [Adamic] man was crucified with Him" (Rom. 8:3; 6:6).

IDENTIFICATION -- Every member of the Bride-to-be, in Adam, was judicially identified with Christ on the Cross. There He was made to be sin--our sin; hence we were identified with Him in His death to sin. "For He hath made Him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us." "I have been crucified with Christ" (2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 2:20).

BURIED WITH HIM -- In our identification with Him in His death to sin, we were buried with Him. "Therefore, we were buried with Him" (Rom. 6:4).

DEATH-SEPARATION -- In order to be raised from the dead, resurrected, as a new creation in the Last Adam, it was necessary for us to be separated from the first Adam by death. "Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; old [first Adam] things are [positionally] passed away; behold, all things are become [positionally] new." "Likewise, reckon ye also yourselves to have died indeed unto sin, but to be alive unto God in Jesus Christ" (2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 6:11).

ASCENDED BRIDE -- Having separated the Bride from Adam and recreated her in Christ, the Father raised her to the heavenlies--each member of the Body of Christ. "Even when we were dead in sins [God] hath made us alive [recreated] together with Christ ... and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:5,6).

THE BLOOD -- The Bride was redeemed by "the precious Blood of Christ" (1 Pet. 1: 19). The Bride was "made nigh by the Blood of Christ" (Eph. 2:13). The Bride was positioned in Christ--"hidden with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3). The Bride has "boldness to enter into the Holiest by the Blood of Jesus" (Heb. 10:19).

PENTECOST -- Soon the Spirit of God brought her to earth again, like a rushing mighty wind, to begin her experiential history--the Bride growing up incognito, in the world, but not of it. "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come ... suddenly there came a sound from heaven like a rushing mighty wind. ..and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:1,2,4).

THE HOLY SPIRIT -- From that time forth the Spirit of Christ indwells all who believe--all of the chosen, elect, called members of the Body of Christ. Each believer is baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ--in union with Christ. "For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one Body" (1 Cor. 12:13).

IN CHRIST -- "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (1 Cor. 12:27; Gal. 3:27).

CHRIST IN YOU -- Our union with Christ is reciprocal--we are in Him, and He is in us. "Christ in you, the hope of glory." "At that day ye shall know that I am in My Father, and ye in Me, and I in you" (Col. 1:27; John 14:20).

JOINT-HEIRS -- Each member of the Body of Christ is an heir with Christ. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." "The Spirit beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." "And if children, then heirs--heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8:14,16,17).

TOTAL ONENESS -- Our life in Christ is complete--total oneness with Him. "For he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit." "And ye are complete in Him." "Accepted in the Beloved." "For we are members of His Body, of His flesh, and of His bones" (1 Cor. 6:17; Col. 2:10; Eph. 1:6; 5:30).

RAPTURE -- In the Father's appointed time, when He has completed the Body of Christ, He will again take her aloft--this time for the Bride to meet her Bridegroom in the air. It is then that her eternal position will become experiential condition.

"When He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." "For our citizenship is in heaven, from where also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall change our lowly body, that it may be fashioned like His glorious body" (1 John 3:2; Phil. 3:20,21).

SECOND ADVENT -- Ere long the Bridegroom-King will bring His all-glorious Bride down from heaven to reign forever with Him over the earth. "When Christ, who is our Life shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory." "They shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." "And they shall reign for ever and ever" (Col. 3:4; Rev. 20:6; 22:5).

http://withchrist.org/MJS/twonew.htm

That's where I stand, sorry about the dust comment.

jason[/quote]
 
quibox,
A couple of comments-


Notice Hebrews 8:6:

"But now hath he obtained a MORE EXELLENT MINISTRY, by how much He is a mediator of A BETTER COVENANT, which was etablished upon BETTER PROMISES"

The issue wasn't the law, but the terms of the covenant. It is no longer us saying as the Israelites did 'All that you command WE will do" Now the mediator is Christ and through the spirit of love and grace, it is us, changed man, a new creature that keeps the law through Christ by his empowering spirit.

If we fail, we have an advocate with the Father that forgives us our sins without sacrifice as He has already done it.

This is the new covenant, not an abolishing of the commandments but a new approach to obedience.
I agree with all that you said until you say that this is the new covenant.

First, you also have misquoted Hebrews 8:6;

Hbr 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much ((ALSO)) he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

This word is very important to the verse, as it separates the two statements. The first statement is that He OBTAINED (past tense) a more excellent ministry. In other words what was already there was made more excellent. That's what was obtained.

The next statement begins with ALSO. It would be like someone saying, "I am a doctor and ALSO a lawyer." One is not connected to the other. The word "also" separates the two. The second statement says that He is the mediator of a better covenant (new covenant). The new covenant isn't the more excellent ministry. They are two separate things. The verse doesn't say that the better covenant was obtained. It was established (meaning the way for it's coming is paved), but not obtained as of yet.

guibox:
"Do we then make void the law through faith? Nay we establish the law!"
"The law is holy, just and good"

Strange things for Paul to say for such a vehement supporter of NO LAW for the Christian as many try to make him out to be.

Ephesians 2 and James 2 refer to specific commandments and refer to them asz "commandments". A strange thing to do when the law is no longer binding.

The problem is a gross misunderstanding of what the New Covenant is and the distiniction between those laws that Christ fulfilled and those that are part of God's moral government. and righteous standard for His people.
I couldn't agree more. But I say the problem is that there is no scripture which states we're under the New Covenant, or even that the New Covenant is for anyone other than the house of Israel.

God Bless!
 
Jay T:
MOSES OUT! -- The author of Hebrews used Israel's New Covenant to show these converts that the Mosaic Covenant was to be replaced:

Replaced with what? The only difference between the old and new covenants are changes to the people made by God. There are no changes to the covenant itself!

"But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the Mediator of a better covenant [grace],...
The problem is that the Bible doesn't say that grace comes under the New Covenant. But, it does say that grace came under the Old Covenant (Hbr. 9:15). How do we explain that? How can there be NO scripture that says the New Covenant is in effect, or that says the New Covenant is for Gentiles?

Jay T:
... which was established upon better promises ['I will"]. For if the first [Mosaic] covenant had been faultless ['weak through the flesh' Rom. 8:3], then should no place have been sought for the second."

"For finding fault with this,...

Finding fault with "this"? As Sputnik pointed out, the word is "them". That is significant because there were no changes in substance to the new covenant. It is the exact same promise as the Old Covenant. The changes are to be made to the PEOPLE, not the promise. There are no changes to the promise.

He saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Heb. 8:6-8).

Why is this breezed over? The promise is to the house of Israel ONLY.

"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, which, My covenant, they broke" (Jer. 31:32).

"In that He saith, A new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and groweth old is ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).

Wm. R. Newell gives the proper conclusion concerning these covenants:

The great word as to the former covenant is: "He hath made the first old ... nigh unto vanishing away." It vanished indeed a few years later--in A.D. 70--when the Temple was sacked and burned, and Jerusalem destroyed by Titus.
Where does the Bible say the New Covenant began in A.D. 70?

While place is foretold for the "house of Israel and the house of Judah" in this Epistle of Hebrews, yet lay it to heart: The old Mosaic Covenant is gone (vs. 9,13); and the new covenant not yet come.

--READY to vanish means it's still here, not gone.

Question: How can Gentiles be grafted into what Israel has, and at the same time Israel doesn't have it yet? I mean, the Bible says Gentiles were grafted in to make Israel Jealous. So how is it that Gentiles could be grafted into a New Covenant that even Israel didn't have?

The author is writing to Hebrew believers with whose fathers God has made a "covenant," and with which nation He will, by and by, at the Messiah's return to Israel, make a "new" covenant, saying, "And this is the covenant from Me unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Rom. 11:27).
And do you consider this to be already done?

These Hebrew believers were called, then, to face the fact that the old covenant, with the Law principle of blessing, had been set aside. We behold national Israel today without a covenant, "regarded not" by Jehovah!
The problem with this statement is that the law is not the old covenant. The law was an "addition" to the old covenant, and can't override the old covenant.

The Church isn't part of the new covenant with Israel.

Then what was the church grafted into? (Rom. 11). For the record, I don't believe it was the new covenant.

Help me put all of this together.

God Bless!
 
Biblical Orthodoxy said:
Quote: But, the believer (new man) has also been resurrected from the dead (Col. 3:1-3) as a new man with the life of Christ, and the old man is still dead. The position of the new man is one of having already attained perfect righteousness positionally, so all sin is in the past and the penalty has already been paid (Eph. 4:22-24 - you have put off the old man... you have put on the new man...). Now, it is not the Law that is worked out (forbidding unrighteousness), but it is the life of Christ worked out (positive righteousness) from the new nature and the indwelling HS, none of which can be found in the Law.
Romans 10:4 "For Christ is the [end] of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth".

And the Greek word for, 'end', is.....goal to get to, distination to attain to, purpose.
 
7-bacchiocchi-anything-but-33AD.gif

What does the Scripture say on this matter, did the Law make anyone holy?

“For Christ once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh . . .†(1 Peter 3:18); “. . . being justified by His blood we shall be saved from wrath through Him†(Rom.5:9); “So Christ was once offered to bear the sin of many . . .â€Â(Heb. 9:28). “ . . . to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly†(Rom. 4:5); “...no man is justified by the law in the sight of God†(Gal. 3:11); “knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ...â€Â(Gal. 2:16).



One theologian writes:
Had Christ only kept the law, neither your soul nor mine could have been saved much less be blessed as we are. Whoever kept the law, it would have been a righteousness of the law, and not God's righteousness, which has not the smallest connection with obeying the law. Because Christ obeyed unto death, God brought in a new kind of righteousness â€â€not ours, but His own favor. Christ has been made a curse upon the tree; God has made Him sin for us that we might be the righteousness of God in Him.

Does the righteousness of God mean simply that, or does it mean law keeping? For the Reformer, it means keeping a shadow of the Mosaic Law for personal holiness. But what does the Scripture say? Doesn't it say we will bear fruit, and why does it never ever say the fruit of the Spirit is the ability to keep the Mosaic Law?

We are saved by Grace, but we are also sancified by Grace as well. Romans 8 makes this clear.

I'm don't believe in lawlessness, but being in Christ to fulfill the Law. We must abide in Christ as our rule of life.

Quote:
"And now, little children, ABIDE IN HIM; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at his coming" (1 John 2:28).
"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but BE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT" (Ephesians 5:18).
"This I say then, WALK IN THE SPIRIT, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh" (Galatians 5:16).
"Likewise RECKON YE ALSO YOURSELVES TO BE DEAD INDEED UNTO SIN, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:11).
"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but YIELD YOURSELVES UNTO GOD, AS THOSE THAT ARE ALIVE FROM THE DEAD, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God" (Rom. 6:13).
"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, SO WALK YE IN HIM" (Col. 2:6).
"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye WALK WORTHY of the vocation [the believer’s high, heavenly, holy CALLING] wherewith ye are called" (Eph. 4:1).
"And that ye PUT ON THE NEW MAN, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24).
"For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: WALK AS CHILDREN OF LIGHT" (Eph. 5:8).
"If ye then be risen with Christ, SEEK THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE ABOVE, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God" (Col. 3:1).
"PUT ON therefore, AS THE ELECT OF GOD, HOLY AND BELOVED, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering" (Col. 3:12).

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and LET US RUN WITH PATIENCE THE RACE that is set before us, LOOKING UNTO JESUS the Author and Finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Heb. 12:1-2).

Quote:

WHAT THE LAW IS
"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" (Rom. 7:12),

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin" (Rom. 7:14).

"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" (Rom. 7:22).

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully" (I Tim. 1:8).

"And the law is not of faith" (Gal. 3:12).

THE LAWFUL USE OF THE LAW
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet" (Rom. 7:7; see also verse 13).

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).

"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because Of transgressions" (Gal. 3:19).

"Now we know, that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" (Rom. 3:19). Law has but one language: "what things soever." It speaks only to condemn.

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Gal. 3: 10).

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (James 2:10).

"The ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor. 3:7).

"The ministration of condemnation" (2 Cor. 3:9).

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died" (Rom. 7:9).

"The strength of sin is the law" (1 Cor. 15:56).

"It is evident, then, that God's purpose in giving the law, after the race had existed twenty-five hundred years without it (John 1: 17; Gal. 3:17), was to bring to guilty man the knowledge of his sin first, and then of his utter helplessness in view of God's just requirements. It is purely and only a ministration of condemnation and death.

WHAT THE LAW CANNOT DO
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2:16).

"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain" (Gal. 2:21).

"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith" (Gal. 3: 11).

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom. 8:3).

"And by him, all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses" (Acts 13:39).

"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God" (Heb. 7:19).

THE BELIEVER IS NOT UNDER THE LAW
Romans 6, after declaring the doctrine of the believer's identification with Christ in His death, of which baptism is the symbol (verses 1-10), begins, with verse 11, the declarations of the principles which should govern the walk of the believer-his rule of life. This is the subject of the remaining twelve verses. Verse 14 gives the great principle of his deliverance, not from the guilt of sin that is met by Christ's blood, but from the dominion of sin-his bondage* under it. "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Lest this should lead to the monstrous Antinomianism of saying that therefore a godly life was not important, the Spirit immediately adds: "What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid" (Rom. 6:15). Surely every renewed heart answers 'Amen" to this.

Then Romans 7 introduces another principle of deliverance from law. "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should he married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter" (Rom. 7:4-6). (This does not refer to the ceremonial law; see verse 7.)

"For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God" (Gal. 2:19).

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up, unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal. 3:23-25).

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man" (I Tim. 1:8-9).

WHAT IS THE BELIEVER'S RULE OF LIFE?
"He that saith he abideth in him, ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked" (I John 2:6).

"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren" (I John 3:16).

"Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul" (I Pet. 2:11; see also verses 12-23).

"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love" (Eph. 4:1-2).

"Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us" (Eph. 5:1-2).

"For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light" (Eph. 5:8).

"See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil" (Eph. 5:15-16).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh" (Gal. 5:16).

"For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have, done to you" (John 13:15).

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love" (John 15: 10).

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you" (John 15:12).

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me" (John 14:21).

'And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment" (I John 3:22-23).

"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them" (Heb. 10: 16).

A beautiful illustration of this principle is seen in a mother's love for her child. The law requires parents to care for their offspring and pronounces penalties for the willful neglect of them; but the land is full of happy mothers who tenderly care for their children in perfect ignorance of the existence of such a statute. The law is in their hearts.

It is instructive, in this connection, to remember that God's appointed place for the tables of the law was within the ark of the testimony. With them were "the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded" (types: the one of Christ our wilderness bread, the other of resurrection, and both speaking of grace), while they were covered from sight by the golden mercy seat upon which was sprinkled the blood of atonement. The eye of God could see His broken law only through the blood that completely vindicated His justice and propitiated His wrath (Heb. 9:4-5).

It was reserved to modernists to wrench these holy and just but deathful tables from underneath the mercy seat and the atoning blood and erect them in Christian churches as the rule of Christian life.

WHAT IS GRACE?
"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared . . . according to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:4-5). "That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace, in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:7).

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom. 5:8).

WHAT IS GOD'S PURPOSE IN GRACE?
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world: looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:11-13).

"That, being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7).

"Being justified freely by his grace; through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).

"By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand" (Rom. 5:2).

"And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified" (Acts 20:32).

"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved: in whom we have redemption through f. his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" (Eph. 1:6-7).

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need"(Heb. 4:16).

"How complete, how all-inclusive! Grace saves, justifies, builds up, makes accepted, redeems, forgives, bestows an inheritance, gives standing before God, provides a throne of grace to which we may come boldly for mercy and help; it teaches us how to live and gives us a blessed hope! It remains to note that these diverse principles cannot be intermingled.

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work" (Rom. 11:6).

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:4-5; see also Gal. 3:16-18; 4:21-31).

"So then, brethren, we are not children of the bond-woman, but of the free" (Gal. 4:31).

"For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words: which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more (for they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall he stoned, or thrust through with a dart: and so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake). But ye are come unto Mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn which are written in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel" (Heb. 12:18-24).

It is not, then a question of dividing what God spoke from Sinai into moral law and ceremonial law-the believer does not come to that mount at all.

As sound old Bunyan said: "The believer is now, by faith in the Lord Jesus, shrouded under so perfect and blessed a righteousness, that this thundering law of Mount Sinai cannot find the least fault or diminution therein. This is called the righteousness of God without the law."

Should this meet the eye of an unbeliever, he is affectionately exhorted to accept the true sentence of that holy and just law which he has violated: "For there is no difference: for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:22-23). In Christ such will find a perfect and eternal salvation, as it is written: "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" (Rom. 10:9); for Christ is "the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Rom. 10:4).

Read the Bible, not Ellen White.

As if that wasn't enough!

Quote:

10 Commandments for Sabbatarians!

Thou Shalt not divide the first covenant up into moral and ceremonial laws!
Thou shalt not arbitrarily switch the definition of terms like "commandments" and "the law" in passages to avoid contradiction with your own theology.
Thou shalt realize that the book of Genesis does not contain the word "Sabbath" and nowhere in the New Covenant is the Sabbath day commandment found, instead, it says the Sabbath was abolished!
Thou shalt never again misquote Matthew 5:17 (jot or tittle) as a proof text for Sabbath keeping.
Thou shalt not make the keeping of days (Sabbath day) into a moral law, when it is clearly a ceremonial law.
Thou shalt never teach that if the Ten Commandments are abolished, we can steal and commit adultery.
Although you may not like it, thou shalt learn that the current and historic "official position" of the Seventh-day Adventist and most other Sabbatarians churches is that Sunday worship IS THE Mark Of The Beast.
Thou shalt remember that the two greatest commandments were not in the 10 commandments.
Thou shalt stop misrepresenting history by ignoring the fact that early Christians always worshipped on the first day (Sunday) and never kept the Sabbath!
Thou shalt not claim that Ellen G. White was an inspired prophet, when in fact she plagiarized (copied) most of her major books from the local library including many of what she claimed were visions from God!
Thou shalt not teach that the Ten Commandments and the Old Covenant that was abolished, are two different things!
Thou shalt not reject everything the Catholic church teaches EXCEPT their claim to have changed the Sabbath day.
If thou claim that since Jesus is our example and that He did keep the Sabbath, therefore we should keep the Sabbath... Also keep animal sacrifices, the day of Pentecost feast, the Days of Unleavened bread, since Jesus also kept these...being our example. Thou shalt be consistent.
Thou shalt teach that although God never changes, the Sabbath law does change!
Thou shalt not say that the Sunday worship is of pagan origin by quoting from Bible haters like Arthur Weigall, who trash not only Sunday, but Sabbath, the virgin birth and resurrection of Christ!
Thou shalt not fail to understand that OUR POSITION is not that the Sabbath day was not changed to Sunday, it was abolished before you contact us.
Thou shalt not ever teach that that Apostle Paul kept the Sabbath 84 times, when in fact he never kept the Sabbath as a Christian.
Thou shalt learn that the Seventh-day Adventist church has a long record of suppressing information of its members to hide proof it was founded by a cult leader.
Thou shalt fully understand why former Seventh-day Adventists left the movement and criticized the church about 100 years ago.
Thou shalt learn that the only day ever mentioned in connection with worship of Christians after the resurrection was the first day of the week communion (Acts 20:7) and first day of the week collection (1 Cor 16:1-2)
 
Jay T said:
[quote="Biblical Orthodoxy":b4894]
Quote: But, the believer (new man) has also been resurrected from the dead (Col. 3:1-3) as a new man with the life of Christ, and the old man is still dead. The position of the new man is one of having already attained perfect righteousness positionally, so all sin is in the past and the penalty has already been paid (Eph. 4:22-24 - you have put off the old man... you have put on the new man...). Now, it is not the Law that is worked out (forbidding unrighteousness), but it is the life of Christ worked out (positive righteousness) from the new nature and the indwelling HS, none of which can be found in the Law.
Romans 10:4 "For Christ is the [end] of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth".

And the Greek word for, 'end', is.....goal to get to, distination to attain to, purpose.[/quote:b4894]

That's right, Jesus Christ is the goal, not the Law for everyone that believes.
 
Biblical Orthodoxy said:
[quote="Jay T":d2862]
Romans 10:4 "For Christ is the [end] of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth".

And the Greek word for, 'end', is.....goal to get to, distination to attain to, purpose.[/quote:d2862]

That's right, Jesus Christ is the goal,

Which means that one will desire to emulate the character of Jesus

not the Law for everyone that believes.

Which will include keeping the spirit of the Law as Jesus did. Oh, that would also include a desire to obey the 4th-commandment which has NOTHING to do with Ellen G. White! Much of the content of your above lengthy post, BO, contains little more than mainstream Christian hype, scriptural inaccuracies, and red herrings.
 
Yes, these rabid, anti-Adventists seem to forget that Sabbatarianism existed long before any Seventh Day Adventist.

However, spiritual pride and elitism usually conceals the truth and logical thinking most of the time in the Christian world.

All the Pauline disciples on this forum seem to think they know exactly what Paul was talking about but like to put their own preconceived slant on his words and call them 'truth'. Therefore, anybody who has a differing opinion MUST be 'false'.

And the favorite whipping boy on this forum are the Adventists.

Get it straight people and put your ill conceived prejudices on the side:

- Sabbath doesn't mean Seventh Day Adventist!!!!