Leaving Pro-Gay Theology For True Faith

[Focus on the Family]

{summary}

 

[elena]

What homosexuals do is abomination to God and is a grave sin. They must repent, make a U-turn away from their sinful ways and go towards God.
The Bible clearly says:
Leviticus 18:22"Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin."(NLT)Leviticus 20:13"
If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense."(NLT)

 

[Hidden In Him]

What homosexuals do is abomination to God and is a grave sin. They must repent, make a U-turn away from their sinful ways and go towards God.
The Bible clearly says:
Leviticus 18:22"Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin."(NLT)Leviticus 20:13"
If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense."(NLT)

Greetings Elena, and welcome to Christian forums.

First off, any threads started by, for, or on behalf of Focus on the Family usually won't give you a response. They are just posted for the benefit of any who wish to read them.

But I can respond to your post. I do agree that homosexuality is detestable in the eyes of God. My only reservation would be using Leviticus 20:13 when discussing this subject in the public arena, because it could be misconstrued as favoring the practice of putting homosexuals to death today.

Not that this is what you are saying, just that this is how it can be misconstrued. I'm guessing if you were to quote this verse in a discussion with non-Christians, the first thing they would ask you is "You think homosexuals should be put to death?" which at that point puts you on the defensive for the rest of the conversation.

God bless, and hope you will consider what I am saying.

Welcome once again,
Hidden In Him

 

[Christ_empowered]

Im a former gay. I think part of the problem is that God simply did not allow for same sex relationships in His grand design. Could He have? Maybe in some alternate universe. In this world…

Ugh even in more progressive nations the suicide rate for homosexuals is higher than heterosexuals. For any number of reasons drug abuse seems far too common in the gay community. I remember heterosexual men telling me they’d go to gay bars to score drugs.

I dunno Paul makes it clear that not everyone can or should get married or in some cases remarried. I do wish the modern church would create a space for believers who cannot marry for whatever reasons…,

 

[Riven]

This is from the Old Testament, is it not? This is the Jewish law that existed at the time. Why is it being applied to today's society?

 

[Hidden In Him]

It really is something to see Christians, who are commanded by their Lord to love one another, display such hate and vitriol towards others for simply being different, and attempt to justify that hate with Old Testament scripture that has no relevance in the modern age.

The Old Testament scripture does have relevance, Riven, only the punishments they were commanded to carry out against sinners are no longer in force. But this is not to say that such sins are not still displeasing to God, but simply that what Paul called the "handwriting of the ordinances that were against us" have now been wiped away.

This doesn't mean we don't love them, because we do, but exactly what scriptures we use in an attempt to communicate how God feels about an issue need to be weighed against how they would be refuted in a modern context.

 

[Riven]

The Old Testament scripture does have relevance, Riven, only the punishments they were commanded to carry out against sinners are no longer in force. But this is not to say that such sins are not still displeasing to God, but simply that what Paul called the "handwriting of the ordinances that were against us" have now been wiped away.

If the law and punishment are no longer in effect, then I think we should also reconsider what is displeasing to God in this regard. If only because of the fact that the Old Testament verses have caused a tremendous amount of harm to people that are otherwise just trying to live their lives, and the fact that God seems to have done such an about face in the New Testament in the form of Jesus Christ.

This doesn't mean we don't love them, because we do, but exactly what scriptures we use in an attempt to communicate how God feels about an issue need to be weighed against how they would be refuted in a modern context.

That isn't why Christians use them though. They use those old verses in an attempt to justify their own hatred of a particular group.

 

[Free]

If the law and punishment are no longer in effect, then I think we should also reconsider what is displeasing to God in this regard. If only because of the fact that the Old Testament verses have caused a tremendous amount of harm to people that are otherwise just trying to live their lives, and the fact that God seems to have done such an about face in the New Testament in the form of Jesus Christ.

But he didn’t.

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. (ESV)

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (ESV)

1Ti 1:8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
1Ti 1:10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, (ESV)

That isn't why Christians use them though. They use those old verses in an attempt to justify their own hatred of a particular group.

Disagreement is not hate.

 

[Riven]

But he didn’t.

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. (ESV)

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (ESV)

1Ti 1:8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
1Ti 1:10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, (ESV)

How many of these verses are in Jesus's own words? Did he speak these things or was someone speaking for him after the crucifixion?

Disagreement is not hate.

Disagreeing is something you do in an argument. What's the argument being made?

 

[Free]

How many of these verses are in Jesus's own words? Did he speak these things or was someone speaking for him after the crucifixion?

Jesus, being truly God, inspired those words. The argument from silence does not work, especially since Jesus upheld the Law and as both a Jew and God, his belief that homosexuality was sin goes without saying. Just as he didn’t address a number of other issues because he didn’t need to; they all believed the same, being Jews and followers of the Law.

Disagreeing is something you do in an argument. What's the argument being made?

Disagreeing isn’t only done in arguments. However, the argument that is made is that if a person disagrees with gay marriage, believes homosexuality is a sin, or any other number of things, that they’re hating others. But that is simply false.

 

[Riven]

Jesus, being truly God, inspired those words. The argument from silence does not work, especially since Jesus upheld the Law and as both a Jew and God, his belief that homosexuality was sin goes without saying. Just as he didn’t address a number of other issues because he didn’t need to; they all believed the same, being Jews and followers of the Law.

We can't say what goes without saying unless you also want to conclude that Jesus believed gays should be put to death because he was there to uphold the law and not break it.

And I can't stress enough how important it is that these are not the words of Jesus Christ, but instead an anonymous writer that wrote these things many years after the crucifixion.

Disagreeing isn’t only done in arguments. However, the argument that is made is that if a person disagrees with gay marriage, believes homosexuality is a sin, or any other number of things, that they’re hating others. But that is simply false.

But why do you and others disagree with it and what does that disagreement entail? Do you also disagree with those that like the color blue as opposed to red? If you did, what does that mean in practice? Also, removing the bible from the equation, would you still disagree with it, or do you only disagree because the bible says it is wrong?

 

[Christ_empowered]

The gay lifestyle is generally a dead end. That’s what bothers me. I’m all for secular gay marriage and such but the church should speak the truth in love.

 

[Hidden In Him]

God seems to have done such an about face in the New Testament in the form of Jesus Christ.

No He hasn't, LoL. He is only assumed to have. The only difference is what I told you.

That isn't why Christians use them though. They use those old verses in an attempt to justify their own hatred of a particular group.

Some do, but some are simply pointing out God's displeasure with homosexuality by using an Old Testament passage. Most use the New Testament ones.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Yeah…

Usually I hear the NT. The street preachers with megaphones go ot.

 

[Hidden In Him]

How many of these verses are in Jesus's own words? Did he speak these things or was someone speaking for him after the crucifixion?

This position, however, assumes that the apostles did not speak for Him, which was kind of the old bait and switch technique used by Muslims and Gnostics, inserting themselves as better authorities on what Jesus actually taught.

It discredits the outpouring of the Holy Spirit through whom Jesus said He would teach His disciples all things, but Jesus told them this:

I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

If we are going on Jesus' words as the criteria, Jesus said that when the Spirit of Truth would be given to them, He would guide the disciples into all truth - not a few truths, but all of it - and that He would not speak on His own authority but He would take from what Jesus said and speak it to them.

Jesus Himself also said this:

Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate. Matthew 19:4-6 (ESV)

Then we have Paul teaching this:

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. (Romans 1:26-27)

This, then, is the Holy Spirit amplifying on the same teaching Jesus gave, and it is entirely in agreement with it. The natural use of sexuality was as Jesus said. Concerning marriage, God created them male and female, and decreed the two become one flesh.

 

[Free]

We can't say what goes without saying unless you also want to conclude that Jesus believed gays should be put to death because he was there to uphold the law and not break it.

We can say it goes without saying since Jesus is God in the flesh and God gave the Law to Moses in the first place.

And I can't stress enough how important it is that these are not the words of Jesus Christ, but instead an anonymous writer that wrote these things many years after the crucifixion.

Well, you've just undermined all authority of Scripture and we can literally just throw out our Bibles.

But why do you and others disagree with it and what does that disagreement entail?

Because the Bible says homosexuality is sin. More than that, the standard that the Law is based on, that all morality is based on isn't the Bible, it's God himself. God himself is the standard for right and wrong. Homosexual sin is an affront to God and his created order.

Disagreement means we don't support gay marriages, even of family members; it means we don't approve of the "gay lifestyle;" it means we don't attend pride events or show support of pride month by using their rainbow for things; it means we call to repentance those who are Christians and are living a life of homosexuality. Fundamentally, it means we agree with the Bible that it is sin and we oppose anything or anyone that would seek to coerce or force us to change our beliefs on the matter. None of that means we hate those we disagree with. That is a thoroughly worldly idea that has no basis in reality.

Do you also disagree with those that like the color blue as opposed to red? If you did, what does that mean in practice?

Apples and oranges. Sexual sins are moral sins, they are objectively wrong. Colour preference is not objectively wrong; it is entirely subjective preference and opinion.

Also, removing the bible from the equation, would you still disagree with it, or do you only disagree because the bible says it is wrong?

If God didn't give us the Bible, then likely he wouldn't have provided the way of salvation. In which case, we would all be living in sin and be fully accepting of homosexuality. But, it's all hypothetical anyway.

There are three parts to this discussion and they cover a lot of ground. All three formerly lived as homosexuals, became saved, and now they live as Christians. It is very much worth listening to.

 

[Christ_empowered]

As a recovering gay lol I’ll say…

Homosexual could be a description of part of someone’s self their bring.

Gay is what someone does and it lends itself to a bad lifestyle especially in urban areas.

 

[Riven]

We can say it goes without saying since Jesus is God in the flesh and God gave the Law to Moses in the first place.

So, do you think Jesus supported the killing of homosexuals? He wouldn't step in like he did with the adulterer?

Well, you've just undermined all authority of Scripture and we can literally just throw out our Bibles.

Well, it's true. We don't know who wrote the gospels and we know that they were written years after the crucifixion.

Because the Bible says homosexuality is sin. More than that, the standard that the Law is based on, that all morality is based on isn't the Bible, it's God himself. God himself is the standard for right and wrong. Homosexual sin is an affront to God and his created order.

Fair enough.

Disagreement means we don't support gay marriages, even of family members; it means we don't approve of the "gay lifestyle;" it means we don't attend pride events or show support of pride month by using their rainbow for things; it means we call to repentance those who are Christians and are living a life of homosexuality. Fundamentally, it means we agree with the Bible that it is sin and we oppose anything or anyone that would seek to coerce or force us to change our beliefs on the matter. None of that means we hate those we disagree with. That is a thoroughly worldly idea that has no basis in reality.

Now, see, this is where you lose me. I'm fine with deeply held beliefs that are based on something you believe to be right. What I disagree with is your opposition to anyone that that presents an opposing different point of view, and an unwillingness to change your own views no matter what.

Apples and oranges. Sexual sins are moral sins, they are objectively wrong. Colour preference is not objectively wrong; it is entirely subjective preference and opinion.

There's nothing objective about them. I used the color analogy to prove just that. When you say sexual sin is wrong, I see you disagreeing with me, and indeed most of the modern world, over something that is not only subjective, but trivial in the grand scheme of things.

We are but one species on a floating rock in a galaxy filled with trillions of floating rocks. I find the idea that God, an all-powerful being that created the universe, is concerned about who you sleep with and in what position, to be utterly laughable in its triviality.

If God didn't give us the Bible, then likely he wouldn't have provided the way of salvation. In which case, we would all be living in sin and be fully accepting of homosexuality. But, it's all hypothetical anyway.

Well, would you have a problem with it if the bible said it wasn't a big deal? Or do you use the bible to reinforce what you already feel within yourself?

There are three parts to this discussion and they cover a lot of ground. All three formerly lived as homosexuals, became saved, and now they live as Christians. It is very much worth listening to.

I'll watch it, thanks. It's always fascinating to see how some gays can seemingly change their sexuality, while others, even on this very forum, seemingly cannot and live a "celibate lifestyle".

I'm not convinced that one can change their sexuality, as I believe it is biological. Just as epilepsy was once believed to be the result of demonic possession, we now know that it's actually a neurological condition that can be treated with medicine.

 

[Free]

As a recovering gay lol I’ll say…

Homosexual could be a description of part of someone’s self their bring.

Gay is what someone does and it lends itself to a bad lifestyle especially in urban areas.

They cover all that too. One of the main problems in culture is that sexuality has been falsely made the core identity, thanks to Freud, as you may know.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Freud. Ugh

If it wasn’t for the misery gay life causes I might question scripture or go affirming Christian too. Even my worldly urban friend talks about it…

Non monogamous miserable gay men serial monogamous miserable ladies. Ugh

Reality..bites.,,