Let's go to the movies!

[Biblereader]

Biblereader, you are missing the point.

If you believe that anything fantasy is unbiblical and unacceptable, then fine. Say it.

You have a shallow interpretation of 'magic' and condemn it all
take a knee-jerk reaction to a mythological story that IS MUCH different than say, Harry Potter, you will see that LoTR is really a biblical parallel done in a fantasy format.

Anyway, you are very hardlined and black and white on this, so there is no sense wasting our time arguing about it.

Number one: what is FANTASY? What is the definition of fantasy? (from dictionary.com)
imagination, esp. when extravagant and unrestrained.
2. the forming of mental images, esp. wondrous or strange fancies; imaginative conceptualizing.
3. a mental image, esp. when unreal or fantastic; vision: a nightmare fantasy.
4. Psychology. an imagined or conjured up sequence fulfilling a psychological need; daydream.
5. a hallucination.
6. a supposition based on no solid foundation; visionary idea; illusion: dreams of Utopias and similar fantasies.
7. caprice; whim.


I have NO PROBLEM with being artistic, creative, or making the world a more beautiful place.
Art, music, poetry, etc., are all wonderful, when kept in the limits of Godly service.
WHY are we here on earth? To serve and glorify JESUS CHRIST. Our Saviour.
If any of the books you read go beyond glorifying Jesus, then, you should discard them.
And, help others who are caught up in the web of deceit.
You call my response knee jerk, automatic, unthinking. Oh, contraire, mon ami.
I've watched people as they immerse themselves in LOTR, and have found no good thing to come of it. Why is it so hard for you to LET GO of LOTR?
If it's good, it will stand up under biblical scrutiny. You have no reason to be offended.
We are here to serve Jesus. Not ourselves, and not our fleshly natures.

As for being black and white?
How many places are there to go, after you die?
2- heaven or hell
Is there a middle hand, at the Great White Throne judgement?
no, there is a right hand and a left hand, nothing in between
Is there another allegorical animal, besides the sheep and the goats?
NONE
Are there more than 2 to serve?
no, it's either you are serving Jesus Christ, and following Him, or you are serving the devil.
THIS CAN ALL BE FOUND IN YOUR BIBLE.
How many paths are there to take, spiritually, in life?
2
the broad path that leadeth to destruction, or the straight and NARROW path, that leads
to eternal life.
Is there more than one way to get to heaven?
NO.
ONLY JESUS CHRIST. ONLY THROUGH HIM. HE IS THE ONLY DOOR.
Perhaps we should all become a bit more narrow and focused in our thinking and our lives.

 

[guibox]

Art, music, poetry, etc., are all wonderful, when kept in the limits of Godly service.
WHY are we here on earth? To serve and glorify JESUS CHRIST. Our Saviour.
If any of the books you read go beyond glorifying Jesus, then, you should discard them.....Answer my question: how much time do you devote to things other than God, in your spare time?
Which gets more of you, the Bible, and serving Jesus, or tv, books,comics, video games, and all that?
I've watched people as they immerse themselves in LOTR, and have found no good thing to come of it. Why is it so hard for you to LET GO of LOTR?

I'm saying you are arguing two different things according to your arguments. Yes, I agree with you that fantasy and many other secular things can compete in our lives with God. This is to be avoided and placed under scrutiny. In this I agree with you. ANYTHING can become our obsession and idol, not just LoTR. Your argument can apply to ANYTHING.

However, I am saying that for you to argue that by it's very nature, LotR is anti-Christian and shouldn't be read by Christians, that you are ignorant in this matter and do not know the nature of what LoTR is about.

 

[Archetype]

Biblereader, you are missing the point.

If you believe that anything fantasy is unbiblical and unacceptable, then fine. Say it.

However, what you are basing your opinions on in your interpretation of LoTR is false information and ignorance. You have a shallow interpretation of 'magic' and condemn it all based on a different biblical imperative then what LoTR is.

The methodology of your view of LoTR is the equivalent of someone taking only the book of Judges and maybe Exodus 31 and creating a view of God from that. According to this cursory analysis, one can come to the conclusion that God and His people are horribly brutal and immoral and the Bible is worse than a graphic horror novel. A horrified opinion of "what kind of immoral God do you Christians serve?" can be derived from such an ignorance of context.

When you understand the history of Middle Earth and not take a knee-jerk reaction to a mythological story that IS MUCH different than say, Harry Potter, you will see that LoTR is really a biblical parallel done in a fantasy format.

Anyway, you are very hardlined and black and white on this, so there is no sense wasting our time arguing about it.

Amen Guibox Amen!!

Biblereader you failed to answer my question. I am saved I do love Jesus and I am a Sci-Fi Fantesy nerd.

nothing wrong with that.

 

[Vic C.]

Guibox, nice try; I commend you for trying. It's hard to reason with one-sidedness. 100 years ago, computing and the gathering of massive amounts of data from north to south, east to west, in a couple blinks of an eye, would have been considered witchcraft.

Also, look at what "they" did to Galileo.

To be this legalistic... AND to be on the internet telling people their salvation may be in question for watching the likes of LOTR or Narnia, that is sort of... well, it's wrong to say the least.

Also FYI, J.R.R Tolkien and C.S.Lewis both Christian.

Yes! I alluded to that earlier. With movies like these, it's not our job to condemn but to point out to the secular world the origins and beliefs behind the sometimes superficial surface of these movies. I wish I had time to tell of all the Godly conversations I've had with friends, coworkers and family members, which were started by the mere mention of these movies.

Man I can walk through the basic storyline of "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" and pinpoint specific passages in the Bible. Many people don't know this and it could be used to open up such doors of Biblical understanding.

Why waste such a great opportunity given to us by God through men such as Tolkien and Lewis?

 

[handy]

But what about the OP of this thread, the bringing of movies right into the worship service?

What is the purpose of corporate worship anyway? It is just a time to sing some songs and listen to some educational and uplifting words, or is it more than that?

What does it mean to 'lift holy hands unto the Lord', and should Hollywood have a hand in that? Keep in mind I'm not talking about churches arranging a 'movie night' wherein the whole congregation goes to see "The Passion of the Christ", but rather having the movie right in church during corporate worship.

What does it mean to worship God in Spirit and in truth, and does fantasy, even Christian fantasy fulfill that?

BTW, I love the Chronicles of Narnia and LOTR. I'm not speaking as to whether or not they are inherently evil or inherently of Satan, because I don't believe for a moment that they are. What I'm talking about is what the purpose of corporate worship is, and whether or not movie clips are appropriate to it.

 

[Vic C.]

But what about the OP of this thread, the bringing of movies right into the worship service?

I wanted to address this. On page one, I asked what clip was it? I also should have asked, what was the clip addressing?

Knowing the answers to these two questions would have allowed us to determine whether or not this is appropriate. Was it a one, two, three minute clip? Personally, I'm not willing to render a decision without knowing the facts. My Pastor did a great sermon on "fighting the good fight, based on one catchphrase from Randy Jackson of American Idol. 8-)

Was this clip akin to a parable, which has it's roots in earthly stories but has a Heavenly meaning :smt102 or was it just used for "shock value"?

Btw, I strayed from the OP because I was just following the current "theme" of the thread. :

 

[guibox]

But what about the OP of this thread, the bringing of movies right into the worship service?...What I'm talking about is what the purpose of corporate worship is, and whether or not movie clips are appropriate to it.

I think it is easy to jump on the 'pop culture' bandwagon because of the belief that we have to 'entertain' the congregation to 'bring them in'. To use Hollywood clips because it seems 'hip' or a 'cool thing to do' is tainting a sermon. If the purpose is to show a clip because of a line that was said, then why can't that line be said from the front. It's not like Hollywood needs to be seen for it's dialogue.

However, if the entirety of the visual medium presents a point that gels with what you want to portray so strongly that mere words cannot convey the message, then why not use an appropriate clip?

I agree with Vic. Context is everything in this situation.

 

[Biblereader]

a

 

[Biblereader]

because it seems 'hip' or a 'cool thing to do' is tainting a sermon. If the purpose is to show a clip because of a line that was said, then why can't that line be said from the front. It's not like Hollywood needs to be seen for it's dialogue.

However, if the entirety of the visual medium presents a point that gels with what you want to portray so strongly that mere words cannot convey the message, then why not use an appropriate clip?

I agree with what you said, and that can be applied in reading choices.
LOTR, Narnia, and Potter are all popular, hip, and the cool things to read right now.

HOW do these books enhance your Christian walk? What do they do FOR you, in the Name of Jesus Christ?

 

[handy]

For LOTR, I can't say the books and movies 'do' anything other than bring enjoyment of a good story tol.

But, as for the Chronicles of Narnia and for the Harry Potter books, I've used both, (yes, even Harry) as jumping off points for sharing the Gospel.

Now, my husband isn't much of a reader. He was born with brain damage and has had brain surgery. Part of the brain that was cut out is the part that helps one understand written words. Through a LOT of hard work, he can and does read and write, but not for 'pleasure' the way I do. So, for him, visual things really bring Biblical principles alive for him. Because of his surgery, he hadn't known about the Chronicles of Narnia, when we watched the movie, Steve was very moved, moved to the point of tears when Aslan laid down his life for Edmund. The movie really brought forth the impact of Christ's love and sacrifice for us.

Harry Potter is controversial, to say the least. I don't recommend them because of it, but on the other hand, I've found some very stong Biblical principles layed out in the books and some good life lessons as well. Each Christian will have to come to terms with how 'magic' is protrayed in the books. I found the magic to be so far removed from what is real witchcraft to make it OK for me. And, as I've said, I've taken opportunity to share the Gospel based upon a conversation that started with the Potter books. As for the Potter books causing kids to turn their lives over to witchcraft, well, it seems that it would be a lot more prevelent by now, but there really hasn't been any wholesale conversions to witchcraft that I can see. I believe that sex and drugs still play a far more major role to turning kids over to witchcraft and Satanism than any Potter stories.

My beef isn't with fantasy as a medium for authors or artists, rather it's the 'entertainment bandwagon', that I feel is the real threat to the church.

Given my husband's reaction to Aslan's sacrifice, one might see a use for that kind of visual during corporate worship. But, if this were the case, I believe the visual can and should be something that is a Christian venture, rather than Hollywood produced. I guess I just don't like Hollywood being in worship, any more than I liked the pop songs, (with somewhat revamped words) being used to lead 'worship' in my brother-in-law's church. To me, worship is something that we, as a body do to honor God. I always picture the entire church as a stage set before God, with Him taking in the songs, the prayers, the communion and the Word that we sing and speak together as a sweet incense. And, as I picture God sitting on His throne, and us corporate joined together to worship Him, I have a tough time interjecting the Monkee's "Then I saw His face, now I'm a believer" or having us turn our attention to Russel Crowe in a miniskirt.

I believe too often, our church services have become ways to reach out to the community and get our numbers up, rather than the focus being on God.

 

[Vic C.]

Because of his surgery, he hadn't known about the Chronicles of Narnia, when we watched the movie, Steve was very moved, moved to the point of tears when Aslan laid down his life for Edmund. The movie really brought forth the impact of Christ's love and sacrifice for us.

:-D I knew the story and I was driven to years also when Aslan was slain and when he was resurrected. Also, the battle scene was akin to a Armageddon-like battle.

But I do understand the concern about Follywood seeping into the churches. 8-)

 

[Nikki]

At the church that we used to go to, they played the Mountain Dew commercial where the whale swims up and eats the kayaker just as he opens up a Mountain Dew. The kayaker then lights flare and it shows all kinds of other people in the whales stomach all drinking mountain dews and they all say "HEY!" to the man.

The preacher then talked about the story of Jonah and the Whale and what it would have been like for that to happen.

 

[handy]

Have any of you seen the commercial where there is a middle-aged man and his teenage son and the middle age man is talking about all the tattoo's and piercings he has and is going to get and how the tats and piercings cause him and his son to bond or something like that. And all the while the old codger is going on about how cool he is and how much like his son he is, the son is sitting there saying "I hate my life" because he's so moritified that his dad is acting like a fool.

It's a funny commercial.

It's funny, because it's part of the teen world to be 'rebellious' and go for tattos and piercings and all that, and it's NOT the part of a parent to participate in that. The kid is mortified because his father stepped out of his role as a father in an effort to be 'cool' and wound up being 'fool'. (groan)

To me, the Church trying to be hip by lacing sermons with Hollywood clips and commercials, rewriting Monkee's songs into 'hymns of praise' and playing pounding rock music, is a lot like that dad, being foolish, and instead of 'connecting' with his son, only serves to turn them off.

The Church does have a role in this world, we are to be light, we are to be salt, we are to bring the gospel to all. Now, since the Church is just us folks, then naturally the songs we sing and the language we use will be somewhat reflective of the culture we're from, because... well...we're from it.

But, when we bend over backwards to strive to be 'relevent', 'hip' and 'with it', we just wind up making fools of ourselves. It's the Gospel that is supposed to make us fools in this earth, not our own antics.

And frankly, I don't think the message of the Gospel need be what is paramount during coporate worship. To me, the Gospel is what we are to be doing every day, while we work, play, talk on the phone or type on the computer. But, in honor of the Sabbath, whether one celebrates Sabbath on Saturdays, or on the Lord's Day, we should set aside our 'work' and 'rest' in worship and adoration of God as a body.

 

[guibox]

And, as I picture God sitting on His throne, and us corporate joined together to worship Him, I have a tough time interjecting the Monkee's "Then I saw His face, now I'm a believer" ...

:o Oh my goodness! That is so horribly cheesy! I'm guessing that because you've mentioned this twice that this has actually occurred?? Methodology like that is just awful! It is destroys both the secular and spiritual result taking such things out of their context like that.

The closest I've come to that was when my wife and I went to the dedication of our godson (no longer our godson anymore...thank goodness) at a Christian Science church. One of the songs in their 'praise' service was 'Jeremiah was a Bullfrog' :-D

The whole thing was such a creepy experience after it was done, I told my wife "Let's get the heck out of here!"

I'm shuddering just thinking about it!

At the church that we used to go to, they played the Mountain Dew commercial where the whale swims up and eats the kayaker just as he opens up a Mountain Dew. The kayaker then lights flare and it shows all kinds of other people in the whales stomach all drinking mountain dews and they all say "HEY!" to the man.

The preacher then talked about the story of Jonah and the Whale and what it would have been like for that to happen.

See, to me, that is what I call jumping on the bandwagon. There is no need or purpose to show such a thing except to be 'novel' or 'creative'. If he showed a clip of a good dramatization of a Jonah and the whale story in all it's uncomfortable glory, then there might be a purpose to help the congregation visualize how awful it must have been for Jonah.

A party in the belly with Mountain Dews doesn't come across to me as the Jonah story.

As a teacher, this is what I call 'fluff' that fills the gaps because the teacher doesn't have anything useful to say or teach and tries to be 'hip'.

 

[handy]

Yes, it did happen. Standing as a congregation and singing "Then I saw His face, now I'm a believer." Probably because the Monkee's (which is one of my all time favorite bands BTW) have had some interest generated in them lately because of the Shrek movie. The Monkee's and Shrek driving what is happening at corporate worship. Yeah.

This was my brother-in-law's church, meaning he was the pastor of it. It no longer is, the church disbanded and the building was sold. At least we only went there twice,when we were visiting. My other sister and b-i-l, were kind of in a hard spot, because they lived in the same town, and it was a small enough one that it would have looked really bad for them not to go to his church. So, they did, but were really unhappy.

I do have a personal axe to grind as far as this subject is concerned. You see, we live way out in the middle of the boondocks. Our small church here in our little community has no permanent pastor, it's pulpit is filled by circuit preachers. There are two men in our community who 'run' the church, they 'run' it to their liking and if anyone doesn't agree with how they 'run' it, then too bad. Church isn't supposed to be a closed, social club, but essentially, this is what the little church in our community is. Plus, the guy that fills the pulpit the most often really has some issues, I won't go into it here, but trust me. So, we don't go there.

20 miles down the road, there is another church, this is the 'fellowship celebration' church that showed the Gladiator clip. It just drove my husband and I crazy, because we would be sitting there and all the while the songs were being sung and even while the pastor was preaching, folks were constantly getting up and down and walking around, grabbing cookies and coffee, sometimes chatting with each other by the refreshment table, and the kids were constantly running back and forth as well. It really wasn't a worship service as much as a glorified Bible study, in which one really couldn't study all that well because of all the chaos.

Another few miles down a different road, there is my in-laws Evangelical Lutheran Church. My husband was raised in the ELCA, but we hadn't attended a ELCA since we've been married. Now, the ELCA is a liturgical church, they have very formal services starting with acolytes lighting candles and a call to worship by the pastor. They sing the great old hymns, read texts from the Old Testament, New Testament and the Gospels each Sunday. The sermons are relevent without being worldly, and communion is served every Sunday. And, the congregation is great! They are some of the most loving, caring and dedicated to God people you're ever going to meet. Also, in the same little community as the ELCA, there is an RCC which also has some really good people there. Only we're not Catholic.

Then when one has gone about 50+ (mountain road, not freeway) miles from here, one actually gets to a town where there are quite a few churches, one of which was the Nazarene church. We used to go there, but we stopped because my husband commutes to work on a full time basis, then we have the ranch and the things he needs to do on Saturdays and Sunday became just another day that he spent getting up, commuting into town, and not getting any rest. His health actually began to suffer because of it. Plus, it got to be expensive, with the gas and needing to eat at least one meal, sometimes two, in town.

Due to all of this, we stopped going to church altogether. But, my husband is really deciding to return to his roots, and we started going to the ELCA on Palm Sunday and will continue to do so. The problem is the extreme liberalism of the ELCA. It's not so much the woman pastor, because I've spent the past few years studying that issue from every angle, and there is actually a solid biblical case that can be made for women pastors. But, the inclusion of openly gay couples, and the issue of whether or not to ordain openly gay ministers is, to say the least, problematical. Neither of us are happy about that issue, and we're going to talk with the pastor and see what she thinks of the denomination's move in that direction. But, we are going there. And, to be perfectly honest, I do like the church, I like it a lot. If it wasn't for that one issue, I'd be deliriously happy to have finally found a reverent, yet relevent church. But then, that's a lot like saying, I love everything about this man except for the fact that he's an axe murderer. (No, not comparing homosexuality with axe murder, just pointing out that some things cannot be overlooked.)

 

[Biblereader]

Instead of the Christian's hope of eternal life, Tolkien's world offers re-incarnation -- but only for a select group. This popular notion defies the Scriptures that tell us that "it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment..." [Heb 9:27] Concerned about this contradiction, the manager of a Catholic bookstore asked Tolkien if he might have "over-stepped the mark in metaphysical matters." Tolkien wrote this response,

"'Reincarnation' may be bad theology (that surely, rather than metaphysics) as applied to Humanity... But I do not see how even in the Primary world any theologian or philosopher, unless very much better informed about the relation of spirit and body than I believe anyone to be, could deny the possibility of re-incarnation as a mode of existence, prescribed for certain kinds of rational incarnate creatures."[10]

Since Tolkien denies any supposed allegorical link between his myth and Biblical truth, it's not fair to hold his stories accountable to that truth. Nor is it wise to continue claiming that they teach us God's truth. Those who do could easily be tempted to lower their guard, set aside discernment, internalize the fascinating suggestions and be drawn to occult images -- the opposite of God's warning in Romans 12:9: "Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good."

The movie version of The Lord of the Rings idealizes occultism and cheers the pagan practices used by "good" characters. Like Star Wars, Harry Potter and the world's pagan cultures, it seduces its fans into an imaginary world that pits "white" or benevolent magic against dark, evil magic. Both sides of this imagined "battle between good and evil" use occult practices that God forbids. [Deut 18:9-12]. Those who walk with Him, cannot delight in what He calls evil.

 

[guibox]

Instead of the Christian's hope of eternal life, Tolkien's world offers re-incarnation -- but only for a select group. This popular notion defies the Scriptures that tell us that "it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment..." [Heb 9:27] Concerned about this contradiction, the manager of a Catholic bookstore asked Tolkien if he might have "over-stepped the mark in metaphysical matters." Tolkien wrote this response,

"'Reincarnation' may be bad theology (that surely, rather than metaphysics) as applied to Humanity... But I do not see how even in the Primary world any theologian or philosopher, unless very much better informed about the relation of spirit and body than I believe anyone to be, could deny the possibility of re-incarnation as a mode of existence, prescribed for certain kinds of rational incarnate creatures."[10]

First of all, only the Elves are given natural immortality, in that they can not die of old age or 'human born' sickness. They can be destroyed. Only a few characters in Tolkien's Middle Earth have come back again: Glorfindel and Beren and Luthien. They were sent back in bodily form by Manwe one of the high 'demi-God's under Eru, the Creator God.

It is a great stretch of the literary word to say that 'Tolkien preaches reincarnation'. The reincarnation that exists is completely dependant on God and not a natural life cycle.

Second, Tolkien rightly points out that when you believe in the 'body/spirit' dualism as most of Catholicism and Protestantism believes, such beliefs are not far fetched for special beings as in the case of the Elves. The problem is not with Tolkien, it is the false Greek theology that he draws it from. Blame the church, not Tolkien. Man doesn't have an immortal soul, the Bible doesn't preach it. Don't knock Tolkien for drawing a myth around what his church believes.

Since Tolkien denies any supposed allegorical link between his myth and Biblical truth, it's not fair to hold his stories accountable to that truth. Nor is it wise to continue claiming that they teach us God's truth.

The purpose of Middle Earth and LoTR is not specifically to 'teach us God's truth'. It is a myth and myths are stories derived from factual events. The problem and question presented here on this thread is whether in and of itself, LoTR is anti-Christian or promotes occultism or good witchcraft.

It does not. Whereas Harry Potter promotes the same type witchcraft denounced in the Bible, Tolkien's Middle Earth doesn't. The inherent nature and creation of the characters show that such powers are paralleled to the Bible's concept of 'good vs evil' and not 'occultism'.

And Tolkien hasn't denied any link to Christian themes. Just the creation of Arda and Valinor, the fall of Melkor to become Morgoth are so blatantly Genesis oriented that one would have to be moronic to miss it. What Tolkien has denied is that this was the sole basis for his mythology. He has drawn from Norse myth and Anglo-Saxon culture and language as well.

The movie version of The Lord of the Rings idealizes occultism and cheers the pagan practices used by "good" characters. Like Star Wars, Harry Potter and the world's pagan cultures, it seduces its fans into an imaginary world that pits "white" or benevolent magic against dark, evil magic. Both sides of this imagined "battle between good and evil" use occult practices that God forbids. [Deut 18:9-12]. Those who walk with Him, cannot delight in what He calls evil.

Wrong. As i previously mentioned, the 'wizards' and the 'Dark Lord' are angelic beings. The wizards like Gandalf and Saruman were sent from Valinor (the undying lands) in human form to fight Sauron and vanquish his evil. Saruman became corrupted and only Gandalf fulfilled the request. Their existence, power and purpose comes from Eru.

Do you deny that angels do not have supernatural powers and that their power doesn't derive from God?

Tolkien says that the Elves are perplexed by what we humans say is 'magic' that we attribute to them. This is because these were the first born of Eru's children. They were given special powers and characteristics (immortality) at their creation that humans didn't get.

Biblereader, I understand your zeal and what not, but you really don't know much about Tolkien's Middle Earth to make the judgment calls you do. You are speaking out of ignorance.

And for the record, you really can't make a judgment call on Tolkien's work and motives by the movie's standard. To a Tolkien purist, that would be tantamount to blasphemy! ;-)

 

[Vic C.]

:smt045

That was worth reading, Gui... thanks.

 

[Biblereader]

First of all, only the Elves are given natural immortality, in that they can not die of old age or 'human born' sickness. They can be destroyed. Only a few characters in Tolkien's Middle Earth have come back again: Glorfindel and Beren and Luthien. They were sent back in bodily form by Manwe one of the high 'demi-God's under Eru, the Creator God.

Very sad.

 

[Biblereader]

I'm beginning to see that there aren't many straight and narrow Christians in here.