D
DivineNames
Guest
DivineNames said:
Having said that, at least "TheStudent" is honest about it. This is more than can be said for most of the Muslims around here.
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Having said that, at least "TheStudent" is honest about it. This is more than can be said for most of the Muslims around here.
M
Muhsen
Guest
DivineNames said:THE PAGAN SOURCES OF ISLAM
by Silas
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/pagansources.htm
Interesting article.
DivineNames Instead of reading this rubbish from anti Muslims site, why you don’t read from the Muslims, read:
The Ka'bah: A Symbol of Unity
Behold! We pointed the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer) --22:26
The Ka'bah is located in the holiest of cities, Makkah, in present day Saudi Arabia. It is the place where Hajar took her son, Ismail (a), and the place where Prophet Abraham (a) and his son Prophet Isma'il (a) built the first house of worship. This sacred house, the Ka'bah, has an important meaning for those who understand wisdom.
First, we must understand that the house itself is only a building. It is only stone, and it must be kept like any other house. Even before the Prophet Muhammad (s) began preaching Islam to the Makkans, one of their tribes was responsible for the house. They were the custodians of the sacred house. This noble tribe, the Quraish, was responsible for the upkeep of the house, but they abused that honored privilege. They exploited the house for capital gain. They became wealthy and powerful by housing 360 idols within the walls of the Ka'bah.
Prior to hearing the call of Islam, they knew that Abraham(a), who worshipped the one God, built this house, but they closed their hearts to this memory. The allure of the material world (dunya) has the ability to blind us. Thus, the Quraish were blinded to the unity of God by the material gain of the house. They lost the meaning behind the house. They remembered the physical structure, but they forgot the symbolic meaning.
That symbolic meaning contained in that small, cube-shaped house is a symbol of Unity. It is a single house built for the worship of a single God. A single house was built for a single Ummah (nation or community). When we make the Hajj or pilgrimage to this sacred house, we circumambulate it. We all circle it in the same direction praying to the same Creator. We become unified in our cause, in our direction, in our prayers, and in our way of life. The stone itself is insignificant. There is no magic power in the stone. We must comprehend the symbol of Unity that the stone represents.
Arabia, at the time of our Prophet’s life, prior to his receiving revelations, was a beautiful example. It was a beautiful example of disunity. The tribes fought against each other. Some tribes would band together with other tribes only to fight against yet another tribe. They were constantly in competition for material and political superiority. There are now 56 Muslim countries in the world, not including the places where Muslims are the minority. We have seen wars where Muslims fought against Muslims, brother against brother. Why?
Just like the pagan tribes of Arabia did over 1400 years ago, our Muslims brothers have forgotten the house. They have abandoned it. They didn’t abandon it physically. They abandoned the symbol. They closed the door on Allah’s house and locked it. We, as a collective community, have ignored the symbol and message that Allah has given us in the house. Allah tells us that the world is a Masjid. Allah has also instructed us to worship the Lord of this house. What kind of house is it? It is a house of prayer. What do we call that type of house? We call it a Masjid. Our brothers and sisters have chosen to worship this world instead of worshipping the Lord of this world or the Lord of this house.
Now think about why we are in the chaotic state we are in today. Think about how Muslims leaders go to western powers for help. Muslim leaders steal small insignificant pieces of earth from each other and from their people. Worst of all are the Muslim individuals who do not rise up against this tyranny.
Why is it so easy for millions of Muslims from all over the world to go on Hajj together, but it is so hard for them to stay united when they go home? Allah has designed a practical solution to the problems listed above. The solution is unification through the Ka'bah. Once we understand the symbol, we will understand our unity. The message of the Qur’an is one of Unity: unity of God, unity of religion, unity of nations, and unity of humanity. In order to put this message into practice, we must be unified.
M
Muhsen
Guest
The Symbolism & Related Rites of the Ka`bah
Islam is a religion of relatively few symbols because it is an open, rational and practical faith. Where symbols do occur, their nature conforms with and confirms the nature of the faith.
The central and foremost symbol of Islam is the Ka`bah and the rituals associated with it. In the Qur’an, God calls the Ka`bah Al-Bayt al-Haram (the Sacred House) and Bayt Allah (House of God). This Sanctuary of God is a tangible point in space and time to assemble and “visitâ€Â. It represents how the Muslim’s world and life revolve around an exclusive and pure devotion to the One True God. The pilgrim who visits the Ka`bah must be motivated by a consuming faith and pure devotion, for there is little worldly enjoyment there in the midst of the burning desert.
The Ka`bah is the simple cube stone building in Makkah. Within a few hundred meters of it are other sites associated with the sanctification of Umm Al-Quraa (the Mother of Cities, i.e., Makkah). These sites are two little hills named Marwa and Safa and the Well of Zamzam. The water of this well originally sprang from under the feet of the infant Ishmael (Isma`il) and has flowed ever since then for the pilgrims. Indeed, this water made settlement in Makkah possible. These sites are integral to the rites of Hajj and are enclosed in the Noble Sanctuary.
The foundations of the Ka`bah were laid by Abraham (Ibrahim) and his son Ishmael (Isma`il  peace be upon them), and it was consecrated to the worship of the One True God. However, over the millennia, human folly added to the Ka`bah so that by the half millennium preceding Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), the worship conducted there had degenerated into paganism and idolatry. The Ka`bah was surrounded by more than three hundred idols. The Abrahamic origins of the faith and its heritage of pure monotheism were all but buried. Yet it retained its aura of sacredness, and one “heretic†sect refused the customs of the people to nurture a memory and conviction of the One True God. Another residue of the Abrahamic tradition was a cult of peace and asylum related to the Sanctuary.
By the time Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was born, Makkah was submerged in polytheism and idolatry. Only vestiges of the pure faith remained in a symbol and a tradition. Thus, the mission of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was the fulfillment of Revelation, of the Message of Guidance, not its beginning. It came to restore the faith to its original purity.
Hence the message of Islam was not new. What was new was the form of this message, its dimensions and scale. The message would henceforth be preserved in a Book (the Qur’an) that would be immune to the ravages of time and the folly of man but that would be accessible to all who sought the Guidance. The repository of the faith was in the Community at large. No group could claim the privilege of special knowledge or a mission not open to others. No group or individual could come between the human being and Creator. Clergies and theocracies would be obsolete. These are the chief implications of the new form of this Last Guidance. They underline the liberating essence of its core concept and foundation: tawheed.
This liberating essence constitutes the revolutionary component and the regenerative momentum of the faith. These elements continue to retain their force and relevance because of the uncontaminated purity of its sources and its core tenets. Here are some aspects of the enduring symbolism of the Ka`bah:
1. The Ka`bah is symbolic of an essence: the idea of the prime and the core. It has remained at the center of a continuous tradition of human worship and devotion. It symbolizes the integrating and unifying power of monotheism in human life.
2. The idea of the prime and the core reinforces and confirms the basic concepts of Islam as the religion of pure monotheism, and hence as the one true religion for all men and for all time. Abraham is upheld in the Qur’an not for his ancestry of the Arabs, but for being the model and the archetype of the Muslim. In its association with the Abrahamic tradition and its commemoration of it, the Ka`bah symbolizes the unity of all true religion, celebrates the brotherhood of all prophets, and the essential unity of their message.
3. The Ka`bah is not just associated with the beginnings of the pure faith and of religion. It symbolizes the message that was addressed to the People of the Book  the Jews and Christians  in order to resolve the points of dispute among them.
4. The mission of the last messenger, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), was to inaugurate an era in which Divine Guidance was openly universal, wider and more comprehensive in scope, with its injunctions spelled out in detail. The responsibility for man's fate and moral well-being would come to rest squarely on his own free choice and on a willing initiative to respond to his Creator.
5. The Ka`bah also symbolizes the common orientation and common goal of mankind: its response to the One True God. Every mosque has a mihrab (niche) that points in the direction of the Ka`bah. Wherever a Muslim stands to pray, bow and prostrate, he faces in the direction of the Ka`bah, thus reminding him of the source of identity and common purpose and goal that binds him to his community in faith.
6. The Ka`bah is symbolic both of permanence and constancy and of renewal and renewability. Upon entering the precincts of the Holy Sanctuary, every Muslim makes a pledge as he approaches the Ka`bah. He faces its door and, before beginning tawaf (circumambulation), he renews his commitment by professing the Shahadah, the Testimony of Faith (“I bear witness that there is no god but Allah; I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allahâ€Â). Standing in solemn humility at this station, the Muslim identifies with a whole series of similar stations and situations in which the oath of allegiance was taken, whether during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) or at any time since Abraham and Ishmael (peace be upon them) pledged to God and laid the foundations of the Ka`bah. For this reason, the door of the Ka`bah is known as Bab Al-Multazim, the door of the one who takes the oath or makes the pledge.
7. Bab Al-Multazim is just one detail of the entire state of ihram, the state of sanctification and abstinence of the pilgrim. The pilgrim settles all his worldly debts, and then removes his worldly attire. He bathes and dresses in the fresh attire of the pilgrim and rededicates himself to the Way of his Creator.
The preservation of the Ka`bah as a living symbol down the generations to this day and age and its continuity as a haven of devotion, a shelter of refuge, and a site of grace is, in itself, a sign that invites serious reflection by all those who truly care to think.
Islam is a religion of relatively few symbols because it is an open, rational and practical faith. Where symbols do occur, their nature conforms with and confirms the nature of the faith.
The central and foremost symbol of Islam is the Ka`bah and the rituals associated with it. In the Qur’an, God calls the Ka`bah Al-Bayt al-Haram (the Sacred House) and Bayt Allah (House of God). This Sanctuary of God is a tangible point in space and time to assemble and “visitâ€Â. It represents how the Muslim’s world and life revolve around an exclusive and pure devotion to the One True God. The pilgrim who visits the Ka`bah must be motivated by a consuming faith and pure devotion, for there is little worldly enjoyment there in the midst of the burning desert.
The Ka`bah is the simple cube stone building in Makkah. Within a few hundred meters of it are other sites associated with the sanctification of Umm Al-Quraa (the Mother of Cities, i.e., Makkah). These sites are two little hills named Marwa and Safa and the Well of Zamzam. The water of this well originally sprang from under the feet of the infant Ishmael (Isma`il) and has flowed ever since then for the pilgrims. Indeed, this water made settlement in Makkah possible. These sites are integral to the rites of Hajj and are enclosed in the Noble Sanctuary.
The foundations of the Ka`bah were laid by Abraham (Ibrahim) and his son Ishmael (Isma`il  peace be upon them), and it was consecrated to the worship of the One True God. However, over the millennia, human folly added to the Ka`bah so that by the half millennium preceding Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), the worship conducted there had degenerated into paganism and idolatry. The Ka`bah was surrounded by more than three hundred idols. The Abrahamic origins of the faith and its heritage of pure monotheism were all but buried. Yet it retained its aura of sacredness, and one “heretic†sect refused the customs of the people to nurture a memory and conviction of the One True God. Another residue of the Abrahamic tradition was a cult of peace and asylum related to the Sanctuary.
By the time Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was born, Makkah was submerged in polytheism and idolatry. Only vestiges of the pure faith remained in a symbol and a tradition. Thus, the mission of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was the fulfillment of Revelation, of the Message of Guidance, not its beginning. It came to restore the faith to its original purity.
Hence the message of Islam was not new. What was new was the form of this message, its dimensions and scale. The message would henceforth be preserved in a Book (the Qur’an) that would be immune to the ravages of time and the folly of man but that would be accessible to all who sought the Guidance. The repository of the faith was in the Community at large. No group could claim the privilege of special knowledge or a mission not open to others. No group or individual could come between the human being and Creator. Clergies and theocracies would be obsolete. These are the chief implications of the new form of this Last Guidance. They underline the liberating essence of its core concept and foundation: tawheed.
This liberating essence constitutes the revolutionary component and the regenerative momentum of the faith. These elements continue to retain their force and relevance because of the uncontaminated purity of its sources and its core tenets. Here are some aspects of the enduring symbolism of the Ka`bah:
1. The Ka`bah is symbolic of an essence: the idea of the prime and the core. It has remained at the center of a continuous tradition of human worship and devotion. It symbolizes the integrating and unifying power of monotheism in human life.
2. The idea of the prime and the core reinforces and confirms the basic concepts of Islam as the religion of pure monotheism, and hence as the one true religion for all men and for all time. Abraham is upheld in the Qur’an not for his ancestry of the Arabs, but for being the model and the archetype of the Muslim. In its association with the Abrahamic tradition and its commemoration of it, the Ka`bah symbolizes the unity of all true religion, celebrates the brotherhood of all prophets, and the essential unity of their message.
3. The Ka`bah is not just associated with the beginnings of the pure faith and of religion. It symbolizes the message that was addressed to the People of the Book  the Jews and Christians  in order to resolve the points of dispute among them.
4. The mission of the last messenger, Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), was to inaugurate an era in which Divine Guidance was openly universal, wider and more comprehensive in scope, with its injunctions spelled out in detail. The responsibility for man's fate and moral well-being would come to rest squarely on his own free choice and on a willing initiative to respond to his Creator.
5. The Ka`bah also symbolizes the common orientation and common goal of mankind: its response to the One True God. Every mosque has a mihrab (niche) that points in the direction of the Ka`bah. Wherever a Muslim stands to pray, bow and prostrate, he faces in the direction of the Ka`bah, thus reminding him of the source of identity and common purpose and goal that binds him to his community in faith.
6. The Ka`bah is symbolic both of permanence and constancy and of renewal and renewability. Upon entering the precincts of the Holy Sanctuary, every Muslim makes a pledge as he approaches the Ka`bah. He faces its door and, before beginning tawaf (circumambulation), he renews his commitment by professing the Shahadah, the Testimony of Faith (“I bear witness that there is no god but Allah; I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allahâ€Â). Standing in solemn humility at this station, the Muslim identifies with a whole series of similar stations and situations in which the oath of allegiance was taken, whether during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) or at any time since Abraham and Ishmael (peace be upon them) pledged to God and laid the foundations of the Ka`bah. For this reason, the door of the Ka`bah is known as Bab Al-Multazim, the door of the one who takes the oath or makes the pledge.
7. Bab Al-Multazim is just one detail of the entire state of ihram, the state of sanctification and abstinence of the pilgrim. The pilgrim settles all his worldly debts, and then removes his worldly attire. He bathes and dresses in the fresh attire of the pilgrim and rededicates himself to the Way of his Creator.
The preservation of the Ka`bah as a living symbol down the generations to this day and age and its continuity as a haven of devotion, a shelter of refuge, and a site of grace is, in itself, a sign that invites serious reflection by all those who truly care to think.
A
Agarash
Guest
ThinkerMan>>>
TheStudent >>>
Muhsen>>>
you cant keep discrediting any sources we use for information. if you only look at muslim sources for your religion's truth then my friend you are living a very ignorant life. sorry but it is the most obvious fact that if you want TRUTH you need to look at the matter from ALL sides, that means islam, and non-islam sources. if you keep staring into only the muslim sources then you will only see ONE SIDE OF THE STORY.
I take much offence to this statement, i wasnt comparing nothing, i had questions about the Qu'ran. I'm not claming that the bible is flawless, this thread isnt about the bible. its about the Qu'ranI think if the point of your examination was to reveal the speck in the Qu'ran's eye, you missed the log in the eye of the NT.
TheStudent >>>
im not sure what you mean here...are you saying that islam came before christianity?but just like christianity superceded judaisim, islam superceded christianity
i will.so please show me your 'corruption'.
now now... no need to be nasty. If anything i am seeking the truth. so i will look at 'UTHMANIC Quran', and verbal preservation of the qu'ran isn't what im looking for, im looking for the oldest physical peace of parchment or scroll we have of the qu'ran.i can tell you how the quran was canonised if you cant be bothered to search for the truth
i dont agree with this statement, we believe jesus WAS god, so insulting jesus is like insulting god, yes... but Mohammed never claimed to be God, so how can you be insulting God if you insult Muhammad?please explain?and remember, insulting Muhammed, pbuh, is the same as insulting Allah. just as insulting Jesus is the same as insulting Allah. and who here would like to insult The God?
i find this attitude really disturbing, you see, you cant believe in something until its proven wrong. how sad is that. no my friend, you need to prove that it is correct. its not the other way around. Im not saying do it here, on this forum, but you need to prove for yourself that islam is truth. and not believe it just because it hasn't been proven wrong. or because you have been taught this your entire life. you need to decide for yourself. free will. unlike allah commands...its not for me to prove that it is true.
it is on YOU to PROVE that it isnt.
Muhsen>>>
DivineNames Instead of reading this rubbish from anti Muslims site, why you don’t read from the Muslims
you cant keep discrediting any sources we use for information. if you only look at muslim sources for your religion's truth then my friend you are living a very ignorant life. sorry but it is the most obvious fact that if you want TRUTH you need to look at the matter from ALL sides, that means islam, and non-islam sources. if you keep staring into only the muslim sources then you will only see ONE SIDE OF THE STORY.
M
Muhsen
Guest
Agarash said:i dont agree with this statement, we believe jesus WAS god, so insulting jesus is like insulting god, yes... but Mohammed never claimed to be God, so how can you be insulting God if you insult Muhammad?please explain?.and remember, insulting Muhammed, pbuh, is the same as insulting Allah. just as insulting Jesus is the same as insulting Allah. and who here would like to insult The God?
Because Muhammad was the true last prophet of God and he brought God’s message we must obey him, so who obey him he obeys God and who disobeys and insults him, he disobeys and insult God
Agarash said:Muhsen>>>DivineNames Instead of reading this rubbish from anti Muslims site, why you don’t read from the Muslims
you cant keep discrediting any sources we use for information. if you only look at muslim sources for your religion's truth then my friend you are living a very ignorant life. sorry but it is the most obvious fact that if you want TRUTH you need to look at the matter from ALL sides, that means islam, and non-islam sources. if you keep staring into only the muslim sources then you will only see ONE SIDE OF THE STORY.
The problem they aren’t reading from the two sides they are reading from the liars anti Islamic sites only.
A
Agarash
Guest
Muhsen>>>
I think if muhammed wants people to obey him like he is GOD then he was full of pride. and he has no humility. He never claimed to be God, so can you please tell me why muslims treat him like a God. arent you making an idol??
it still doesnt make sense. Our prophets also brought us the word of God, In the Gospels and the entire new testament, but we dont treat them like their God. because they ARENT GOD, they never claimed to be, they had humility, and never claimed any kind of affection for haveng the word of god.Because Muhammad was the true last prophet of God and he brought God’s message we must obey him, so who obey him he obeys God and who disobeys and insults him, he disobeys and insult God
I think if muhammed wants people to obey him like he is GOD then he was full of pride. and he has no humility. He never claimed to be God, so can you please tell me why muslims treat him like a God. arent you making an idol??
seeing as you have not agreed with any non-islamic sources, i dont really believe you here. i bet you will never agree with any non-islamic sources. please just open your mind, and think logically about this.The problem they aren’t reading from the two sides they are reading from the liars anti Islamic sites only.
M
Muhsen
Guest
Agarash said:Muhsen>>>it still doesnt make sense. Our prophets also brought us the word of God, In the Gospels and the entire new testament, but we dont treat them like their God. because they ARENT GOD, they never claimed to be, they had humility, and never claimed any kind of affection for haveng the word of god.Because Muhammad was the true last prophet of God and he brought God’s message we must obey him, so who obey him he obeys God and who disobeys and insults him, he disobeys and insult God
I think if muhammed wants people to obey him like he is GOD then he was full of pride. and he has no humility. He never claimed to be God, so can you please tell me why muslims treat him like a God. arent you making an idol??
.
No Agarash, Muslims don’t treat Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) like a God, he was a prophet we aren’t worship Muhammad look to this verse from Quran what God said:
3:144 Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.
A
Agarash
Guest
well you may not worship muhammed physically, but if you claim that anyone who disobeys muhammed disobeys God. then you claim that Muhammed and God are one.
unless you are fererring to the scriptures muhammed spoke, if anyone disobeys THE SCRIPTURES MUHAMMED SPOKE then he also disobeys God. this I understand. but you cant say that anybody who disobeys Muhammed now also disobeys God, thats just silly.
unless you are fererring to the scriptures muhammed spoke, if anyone disobeys THE SCRIPTURES MUHAMMED SPOKE then he also disobeys God. this I understand. but you cant say that anybody who disobeys Muhammed now also disobeys God, thats just silly.
T
TheStudent
Guest
I think if muhammed wants people to obey him like he is GOD then he was full of pride. and he has no humility. He never claimed to be God, so can you please tell me why muslims treat him like a God. arent you making an idol?? '
what hypocricisy!! do you not treat jesus like God even though he NEVER said he was? jesus said 'why do you call me Good? only God is Good'
'well you may not worship muhammed physically, but if you claim that anyone who disobeys muhammed disobeys God. theen you claim that Muhammed and God are one.
unless you are fererring to the scriptures muhammed spoke, if anyone disobeys THE SCRIPTURES MUHAMMED SPOKE then he also disobeys God. this I understand. but you cant say that anybody who disobeys Muhammed now also disobeys God, thats just silly.'
i'll take it that you are not just being difficult for the sake of it.
in your opinion, if someone said to you that moses was an idiot, understanding who moses was, in REALITY who are they REALLY calling an idiot? did moses not recieve all of his message from God?
disobeying ANY prophet is the same as disobeying God. that is the nature and level that the prophets have. they are Gods spokesmen. do you understand now?
what hypocricisy!! do you not treat jesus like God even though he NEVER said he was? jesus said 'why do you call me Good? only God is Good'
'well you may not worship muhammed physically, but if you claim that anyone who disobeys muhammed disobeys God. theen you claim that Muhammed and God are one.
unless you are fererring to the scriptures muhammed spoke, if anyone disobeys THE SCRIPTURES MUHAMMED SPOKE then he also disobeys God. this I understand. but you cant say that anybody who disobeys Muhammed now also disobeys God, thats just silly.'
i'll take it that you are not just being difficult for the sake of it.
in your opinion, if someone said to you that moses was an idiot, understanding who moses was, in REALITY who are they REALLY calling an idiot? did moses not recieve all of his message from God?
disobeying ANY prophet is the same as disobeying God. that is the nature and level that the prophets have. they are Gods spokesmen. do you understand now?
Q
Qasim786
Guest
im looking for the oldest physical peace of parchment or scroll we have of the qu'ran.
This Uthmani Manuscript is probably the oldest whole Quran of all.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... ssein.html
G
Gary
Guest
The Samarqand and Topkapi codices are obviously two of the oldest sizeable manuscripts of the Qur'an surviving but their origin cannot be taken back earlier than the second century of Islam. It must be concluded that no such manuscripts of an earlier date have survived. The oldest manuscripts of the Qur'an still in existence date from not earlier than about one hundred years after Muhammad's death.
A
Agarash
Guest
Thanks Gary_Bee ... so now it is clear...
TheStudent>>>
comon, when ar you going to actually read my posts. Why do you think was jesus crucified? i wrote this in another topic also. We treat jesus like God becuase he was.
TheStudent>>>
what hypocricisy!! do you not treat jesus like God even though he NEVER said he was? jesus said 'why do you call me Good? only God is Good'
comon, when ar you going to actually read my posts. Why do you think was jesus crucified? i wrote this in another topic also. We treat jesus like God becuase he was.
i think we are not on the same level here. you must obey the prophets word concerning the word of God, ofcourse. becuase it is not the person speaking, it is GOD speaking through him. so then you must obey the prophet. but you cant go and say you must go and obey EVERYTHING the prophet says like its the word of God... im not trying to be difficult. im just trying to say that: when the prophet speaks the word he received from God, obey and listen. but if he speaks from his own mind, treat him like a normal person.disobeying ANY prophet is the same as disobeying God. that is the nature and level that the prophets have. they are Gods spokesmen. do you understand now?
T
TheStudent
Guest
when the prophet speaks the word he received from God, obey and listen. but if he speaks from his own mind, treat him like a normal person.
then we have different views of the role of prophets. i value EVERY word a prophet says. and im talking about TRUE propehets like jesus and muhammed. to ignore one word is to ignore them all. propehts dont just 'speak' the word of God, they DO the word of God. thats thedifference. do you DO the word of God? without prophets to teach us, how would we know how to act?
then we have different views of the role of prophets. i value EVERY word a prophet says. and im talking about TRUE propehets like jesus and muhammed. to ignore one word is to ignore them all. propehts dont just 'speak' the word of God, they DO the word of God. thats thedifference. do you DO the word of God? without prophets to teach us, how would we know how to act?
A
Agarash
Guest
yes you are right, but remember a prophet is also human, and he can also be wrong. and he can also sin. that is why we are warned of false prophets are we not? so dont you think we should be very careful whether or not we believe everything a prophet says? i think we must test the words of the prophet with that in the bible/qu'ran. and if what the prophet says is confirmed by our scriptures, then so be it... do as he commands.
agree?
agree?
D
DivineNames
Guest
Muhsen said:DivineNames Instead of reading this rubbish from anti Muslims site, why you don’t read from the Muslims, read:
The Ka'bah: A Symbol of Unity
Behold! We pointed the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer) --22:26
The Ka'bah is located in the holiest of cities, Makkah, in present day Saudi Arabia. It is the place where Hajar took her son, Ismail (a), and the place where Prophet Abraham (a) and his son Prophet Isma'il (a) built the first house of worship. This sacred house, the Ka'bah, has an important meaning for those who understand wisdom.
Built by Abraham ?
Could you cite some (non-Muslim) historian's that take this idea seriously?
T
TheStudent
Guest
divinenames,
do you have any proof that it wasnt?
i believe FULLY in the words of the Quran. this is all the proof i need.
agarash,
i believe that ALL prophets are guided by God, each one of their footsteps. it is in these footsteps i walk in. so i can NEVER question ANY of them. that is my belief as to question them, is to question the guidance of God.
plus i would really like to hear some comments about my locked post:
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=15431
do you have any proof that it wasnt?
i believe FULLY in the words of the Quran. this is all the proof i need.
agarash,
i believe that ALL prophets are guided by God, each one of their footsteps. it is in these footsteps i walk in. so i can NEVER question ANY of them. that is my belief as to question them, is to question the guidance of God.
plus i would really like to hear some comments about my locked post:
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=15431
D
DivineNames
Guest
THE PAGAN SOURCES OF ISLAM
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/pagansources.htm
"Muhammad then sanctioned the pagan rituals concerning the Kaba, i.e. kissing the black stone, touching the Kaba, circling the structure, running between the two hills, etc. Later, Umar said to the black stone "I know that you are a stone, that neither helps nor hurts, and if the messenger of god had not kissed you, I would not kiss you". (Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 2, #667). But then he kissed the stone. Like Umar, many other Muslims follow the prophet in their practice of veneration of a pagan idol."
Is this true? Are Muslims into stone kissing ?
:o
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/pagansources.htm
"Muhammad then sanctioned the pagan rituals concerning the Kaba, i.e. kissing the black stone, touching the Kaba, circling the structure, running between the two hills, etc. Later, Umar said to the black stone "I know that you are a stone, that neither helps nor hurts, and if the messenger of god had not kissed you, I would not kiss you". (Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 2, #667). But then he kissed the stone. Like Umar, many other Muslims follow the prophet in their practice of veneration of a pagan idol."
Is this true? Are Muslims into stone kissing ?
:o
T
TheStudent
Guest
answering-islam.com
i was wondering when that would rear its ugly head.
even though i prefer not to source from these sites, i will in this instance, fight fire with fire
have a look through answering-christianity.com to find the answer:
http://answering-christianity.com/muham ... theist.htm
i was wondering when that would rear its ugly head.
even though i prefer not to source from these sites, i will in this instance, fight fire with fire
have a look through answering-christianity.com to find the answer:
http://answering-christianity.com/muham ... theist.htm
T
TheStudent
Guest
and that answering -islam guy is a complete ****
his 'knowledge' of islam is pre-school at best
read:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/incomplete.htm
'
Other examples which prove that the Quran makes no sense or is an incomplete record include the following:
2. Who or what is Abu-Lahab? We are told in Surah 111:1-5:
"Perish the hands of the Father of Flame! Perish he! No profit to him from all his wealth, and all his gains! Burnt soon will he be in a Fire of Blazing Flame! His wife shall carry the (crackling) wood - as fuel!- A twisted rope of palm-leaf fiber round her (own) neck!" S. 111
Who is the Father of Flame? What is this all about? Who is his wife and why are they being cursed?'
if he knew a THING about islam he would know that abu lahab was the arch nemesis of muhammed,pbuh. his pharoh. Abu-lahab means 'father of the flame' in english. this verse talks about the punishment Abu-lahab and his wife will suffer in hell.
yet any Muslim can easily explain this.
the quran isnt a story book like the bible. it doesnt do the thinking for you.
his 'knowledge' of islam is pre-school at best
read:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/incomplete.htm
'
Other examples which prove that the Quran makes no sense or is an incomplete record include the following:
2. Who or what is Abu-Lahab? We are told in Surah 111:1-5:
"Perish the hands of the Father of Flame! Perish he! No profit to him from all his wealth, and all his gains! Burnt soon will he be in a Fire of Blazing Flame! His wife shall carry the (crackling) wood - as fuel!- A twisted rope of palm-leaf fiber round her (own) neck!" S. 111
Who is the Father of Flame? What is this all about? Who is his wife and why are they being cursed?'
if he knew a THING about islam he would know that abu lahab was the arch nemesis of muhammed,pbuh. his pharoh. Abu-lahab means 'father of the flame' in english. this verse talks about the punishment Abu-lahab and his wife will suffer in hell.
yet any Muslim can easily explain this.
the quran isnt a story book like the bible. it doesnt do the thinking for you.
T
TheStudent
Guest
heres anothe of his insights into the 'incomplete' quran:
here he is disputing the fact that Muhammed had knowledge of Abrahams 2 wives:
'1. The Quran is unaware of the fact that Abraham had more than one wife since the Quran makes reference to Abraham's wife, not wives. This wife is clearly Sarah:
And verily, there came Our Messengers to Abraham with glad tidings. They said: Peace! He answered, Peace! and he hastened to entertain them with a roasted calf. But when he saw their hands went not towards it (the meal), he felt some mistrust of them, and conceived a fear of them. They said: ‘Fear not, we have been sent against the people of Lot.’ And HIS WIFE was standing (there), and she laughed. But We gave her glad tidings of Isaac, and after him, of Jacob. They said: ‘Do you wonder at the Decree of Allâh? The Mercy of Allâh and His Blessings be on you, O the family [of Abraham]. Surely, He is All-Praiseworthy, All-Glorious.’" S. 11:69-73'
so if ONE woman is standing there, do you call her WIVES or WIFE?
what a plonker
here he is disputing the fact that Muhammed had knowledge of Abrahams 2 wives:
'1. The Quran is unaware of the fact that Abraham had more than one wife since the Quran makes reference to Abraham's wife, not wives. This wife is clearly Sarah:
And verily, there came Our Messengers to Abraham with glad tidings. They said: Peace! He answered, Peace! and he hastened to entertain them with a roasted calf. But when he saw their hands went not towards it (the meal), he felt some mistrust of them, and conceived a fear of them. They said: ‘Fear not, we have been sent against the people of Lot.’ And HIS WIFE was standing (there), and she laughed. But We gave her glad tidings of Isaac, and after him, of Jacob. They said: ‘Do you wonder at the Decree of Allâh? The Mercy of Allâh and His Blessings be on you, O the family [of Abraham]. Surely, He is All-Praiseworthy, All-Glorious.’" S. 11:69-73'
so if ONE woman is standing there, do you call her WIVES or WIFE?
what a plonker