LEts look at the Qu'ran

[TheStudent]

"God (his guidance) came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise."

Habakkuk 3:3


The wilderness of Paran is where Abraham's wife Hagar and his eldest son Ishmael, the father of the Arabs, settled (Genesis 21:21) in the Arabian desert. Specifically, Makkah (Please see Map 1, page 440). Makkah is, of course, the capital of Islam in Arabia and the birthplace of Muhammad (pbuh). Indeed, it was Hagar and Ishmael themselves who transformed a barren patch of desert into what is now the capital of Islam, "Makkah." Mount Paran is the chain of mountains in that same region which the Arabs call the "Sarawat mountains."

According to J. Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible, Teman is an Oasis just North of Madinah. Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed come from Paran. About 622 AD, he and his followers were forced to migrate from Makkah (Paran) to Madinah (Teman) where he spent the rest of his prophetic life teaching it's people the guidance of God (the Qur'an). These two cities, Makkah and Madinah, are such critical importance to a Muslims faith that every single chapter of the Qur'an is classified as either "Makkia" (revealed in Makkah) or "Madaniyyah" (revealed in Madinah).

 

[Gary]

PARAN (Pay' ruhn)

Wilderness area south of Judah, west of Edom, and north of Sinai.

Israel camped there after leaving Sinai during the Exodus and sent spies to scout out the Promised Land from Kadesh, a location in Paran (Numbers 10:11-12; Numbers 13:3, Numbers 13:26). Chedorlaomer turned back his military campaign at Padan (Genesis 14:5-7). Ishmael made his home there after Abraham was forced to send Hagar and him away (Genesis 21:21). King Hadad of Edom eluded Joab by going through Padan to Egypt (1 Kings 11:17-18).

Source: Holman Bible Dictionary

NOTHING to do with Muhammad (T.H.U.G.)

 

[TheStudent]

'His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely (machamadim). This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem. 
SONG OF SOLOMON 5:16

in original hebrew transliteration:

'Chiku mamtakim v'khulo MACHAMADIM zeh dodi v'zeh re'i b'not yerushalayim.'

here we can see that 'MACHAMADIM' is of course referring to MUHAMMED.

what must be noted is that all Arabic names have a meaning and sometimes adjectives are simply transformed into nouns.

for example:

"He sets for you a parable from your own selves: Do you have partners among those whom your 'right hand' posses to share as equals in the wealth We bestowed on you whom you fear as you fear each other....?" [Qur'an, 30:28]

right hand/side, good hand/side simply translates as 'ayman', which is a popular arabic name.

'muhammed' has multiple meanings which are all gloryfiying and praising.

unfortuantly , their are christians zealots who when trying to counter this claim of a prophecy of muhammed in this verse, they attempt to translate the verse in english and leave in the arabic muhammed:

'His mouth is most sweet; and he is altogether Mohammeds. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem'

obviously this dosent make sense. the verse must be translated in english in its entiriety or, best of all, read in its origianl hebrew.

 

[Gary]

I think you are confused.....

TEMAN (Tee' man)

Personal and place name meaning, “right side,†that is, “southern.â€Â

1. Edomite clan descended from Esau (Gen. 36:11, 15; 1 Chron. 1:36).
2. City of area associated with this clan (Jer. 49:7, 20; Ezek. 25:13; Amos 1:12; Obad. 1:9; Hab. 3:3). Teman has often been identified with Tawilan, fifty miles south of the Dead Sea just east of Petra, though archaeological evidence does not confirm the site as the principal city of southern Edom. Others understand Teman to designate southern Edom in general.

TEMA (Tee' muh)

Personal and place name meaning, “south country.â€Â

Tema, a son of Ishmael (Gen. 25:15; 1 Chron. 1:30), is associated with Tema (modern Teima), a strategic oasis located on the Arabian peninsula 250 miles southeast of Aqaba and 200 miles north-northeast of Medina. Job 6:19 alludes to Tema’s importance as a caravan stop. Isaiah 21:14 likely refers to the campaign of the Assyrian king Tiglath-Pileser III (738 B.C.) when Tema escaped destruction by paying tribute. Jeremiah 25:23 perhaps refers to a campaign of Nebuchadnezzar. Having conquered and rebuilt Tema, Nabonidus, the last king of Babylon, remained there ten years, leaving his son Belshazzar as vice-regent in Babylon (Dan. 5).

Understand now?

Source: Holman Bible Dictionary

 

[Gary]

TheStudent, again you plagiarize without references. That is deceitful and against the rules of this board.

 

[TheStudent]

where have i plagarized?

 

[Gary]

'His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely (machamadim). This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem. 
SONG OF SOLOMON 5:16

in original hebrew transliteration:

'Chiku mamtakim v'khulo MACHAMADIM zeh dodi v'zeh re'i b'not yerushalayim.'

here we can see that 'MACHAMADIM' is of course referring to MUHAMMED.

what must be noted is that all Arabic names have a meaning and sometimes adjectives are simply transformed into nouns.

for example:

"He sets for you a parable from your own selves: Do you have partners among those whom your 'right hand' posses to share as equals in the wealth We bestowed on you whom you fear as you fear each other....?" [Qur'an, 30:28]

right hand/side, good hand/side simply translates as 'ayman', which is a popular arabic name.

'muhammed' has multiple meanings which are all gloryfiying and praising.

unfortuantly , their are christians zealots who when trying to counter this claim of a prophecy of muhammed in this verse, they attempt to translate the verse in english and leave in the arabic muhammed:

'His mouth is most sweet; and he is altogether Mohammeds. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem'

obviously this dosent make sense. the verse must be translated in english in its entiriety or, best of all, read in its origianl hebrew.

What utter rubbish! You Muslims will stoop to any level to try and get Muhammad into the Bible! This is so silly as you, on the other hand, claim that the Bible has been corrupted! How foolish.

But back to your copy-n-paste.

I will respond with a REFERENCED copy-n-paste which totally rebuts your Muslim propaganda.

Song of Solomon 5:16

The best example to illustrate the difficulty in exchanging one word for another is found in the Song of Solomon, chapter 5, verse 16. In this passage Muslims claim that the Hebrew word machmad ("altogether lovely") can be translated "praise" or "Ahmad." Following is the text of the passage as translated in the Bible (NIV):

• Song of Solomon 5:16: "His mouth is sweetness itself; he is altogether lovely. This is my lover, this my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."

Song of Solomon is a poetic love story between the Beloved and her Lover. It is a piece that explores the beauty of a marriage relationship between a king and his wife.

Muslims believe that the adjectival clause "altogether lovely" can be changed to a proper noun, "Muhammad." The text, they state, should then read, when translated into English:

"His mouth is sweetness itself; he is Muhammad. This is my lover, this my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."

This rendering, however, begs a number of difficult questions according to the context of the entire book.

(1) Who are the daughters of Jerusalem? Did Muhammad ever court one of his many wives in Jerusalem?

(2) If this is Muhammad, which of his wives is speaking? Was Muhammad ever married to a dark woman he wooed from Lebanon?

(3) Did Muhammad ever claim kingship?

What, then, is this prophecy saying? The stressed words in the text above are the English renderings of the Hebrew word, machmad. Strong's concordance defines machmad as: desire, desirable thing, a pleasant thing.

So, can machmad signify Muhammad? Wise men allow that when one verse is in doubt it is justified to explain one passage of the Bible by another. The word machmad appears another twelve times in the Old Testament. Since Muslims are so intent on finding the Arabic name of Muhammad in the Hebrew word machmad, it is important that they remain consistent. Therefore, we have printed three of the twelve prophetic verses below and leave it to you to ascertain whether they fit. (Note: we have been consistent in now translating this word as the long-neglected "proper noun" which Muslims claim it to be.)

(1) 1 Kings 20:6
"Yet I will send my servants to thee tomorrow about this time, and they shall search thy house, and the houses of thy servants; and it shall be, [that] whatever is Muhammad in thy eyes, they shall take [it] in their hand, and carry [it] away."

(2) Lamentations 1:11
"All her people sigh, they seek bread; they have given their Muhammad things for food to relieve the soul: see, O LORD, and consider; for I am become vile."

(3) Ezekiel 24:21
"Speak to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will profane my sanctuary, the excellence of your strength, the Muhammad of your eyes, and that which your soul pitieth; and your sons and your daughters whom ye have left shall fall by the sword."

If this mutilation of Scripture seems to you ridiculous, it is meant to be as it shows the quality of the theory behind such an idea. But don't just take our word for it. Look up the other nine references which employ machmad and see for yourself whether Muhammad would fit. They are: 2 Chronicles 36:19, Isaiah 64:11, Lamentations 1:10, Lamentations 2:4, Ezekiel 24:16, Ezekiel 24:25, Hosea 9:6, Hosea 9:16 and Joel 3:5.

When taken to its logical conclusion it makes a mockery of Hebrew grammar. Why should an adjectival clause be translated a proper noun? Machmad already has a proper noun counterpart, 'Chemdan' (or 'Hemdan', the eldest son of Dishon of Anah the Horite). If machmad should have been written as a proper noun the author would have written Chemdan.

Source: http://debate.org.uk/topics/trtracts/t05.htm#3

 

[TheStudent]

that 'copy and past' were my own words.

please apologise.

as i have said before, if you are to translate a verse, translate EVERY word, this is the only way to reach its true meaning.

if i said in arabic: 'Al eznak, mounkin ahdhini al koora, min fadlak'
if i was to translate it using your 'broken' method it would read:
'Excuse me, MOUNKIN give the ball, if you please'

but to understand it fully we must translate EVERY word:

'excuse me, CAN YOU give me the ball, if you please'

so we see NOW that :

''His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely (machamadim). This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem. 
SONG OF SOLOMON 5:16

makes PERFECT sense.

as i also said, it is better to read the verses in the Hebrew script so as not to cause any confusion.

 

[Gary]

"His mouth is sweetness itself; he is Muhammad. This is my lover, this my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."

This rendering, however, begs a number of difficult questions according to the context of the entire book.

• (1) Who are the daughters of Jerusalem? Did Muhammad ever court one of his many wives in Jerusalem?
  
  (2) If this is Muhammad, which of his wives is speaking? Was Muhammad ever married to a dark woman he wooed from Lebanon?
  
  (3) Did Muhammad ever claim kingship?

P.S. Can you read Hebrew? Do you have a Hebrew Bible? Which one? Where did you get this verse from; which Bible? Please supply the references of the Hebrew Bible you have used. Thanks.

 

[TheStudent]

this page here:

http://www.messiahtruth.com/songs.html

 

[Gary]

Thanks... so you don't have a Hebrew Bible nor can you read Hebrew!

You have not answered the issues posed to you. Why not?

This rendering, however, begs a number of difficult questions according to the context of the entire book.

(1) Who are the daughters of Jerusalem? Did Muhammad ever court one of his many wives in Jerusalem?

(2) If this is Muhammad, which of his wives is speaking? Was Muhammad ever married to a dark woman he wooed from Lebanon?

(3) Did Muhammad ever claim kingship?

From the web site you quoted, did you note the conclusion?

Conclusion
One who asserts that Mohammed is mentioned in the Song of Songs ignores the most simple reading of the text and has probably never even looked at the Hebrew of the text.

Now be honest TheStudent..... have you got a Hebrew Bible? Can you read Hebrew at all? Have you read any of the Bible in Hebrew?

Be honest now......

Lastly, have you ever read the full "Song of Songs" from which this verse is taken? Who spoke the words? Who were they speaking to? What are the verses before and after this verse? What is the context of this verse?

 

[DivineNames]

Why would anyone prophecy about Muhammad in the first place??

 

[Lyndar]

'His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely (machamadim). This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem. 
SONG OF SOLOMON 5:16

in original hebrew transliteration:

'Chiku mamtakim v'khulo MACHAMADIM zeh dodi v'zeh re'i b'not yerushalayim.'

here we can see that 'MACHAMADIM' is of course referring to MUHAMMED.

what must be noted is that all Arabic names have a meaning and sometimes adjectives are simply transformed into nouns.

for example:

"He sets for you a parable from your own selves: Do you have partners among those whom your 'right hand' posses to share as equals in the wealth We bestowed on you whom you fear as you fear each other....?" [Qur'an, 30:28]

right hand/side, good hand/side simply translates as 'ayman', which is a popular arabic name.

'muhammed' has multiple meanings which are all gloryfiying and praising.

unfortuantly , their are christians zealots who when trying to counter this claim of a prophecy of muhammed in this verse, they attempt to translate the verse in english and leave in the arabic muhammed:

'His mouth is most sweet; and he is altogether Mohammeds. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem'

obviously this dosent make sense. the verse must be translated in english in its entiriety or, best of all, read in its origianl hebrew.

This is the most absurd thing I have ever read in my life. It is so ridiculous, it is mind boggling.
Imagine a murderer being praised? Obviously the Muslims are so desperate for an idol, they have settled for this beast of Arabia.
Muhammad doesn't have a darn thing to do with this.
The Muslims have taken by force in violence King Solomon and the Shulamite girl to turn it into evil. It is a sin.

 

[Lyndar]

Why would anyone prophecy about Muhammad in the first place??

Exactly. Your question is nothing short of extreme and profound insight conceived in wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Your question deserves to be engraved and bound in a book. It is the most sensible question ever presented to Islam. Sadly they are at a loss to answer you.

 

[DivineNames]

Why would anyone prophecy about Muhammad in the first place??

Exactly. Your question is nothing short of extreme and profound insight conceived in wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

I think you overstated it a little, but there was definitely 'profound insight' involved in that question... probably.

Thank you. :D