Lets say I'm an Athiest

[Oats]

Lets say I'm an atheist....

which i am not at all

Jesus is Lord

however I want to show people that no matter how hard you try you can't convince anyone
:p


forgive me if this bothers you


------

So my first question is

Why should I care about right and wrong?

 

[Jakeness]

Because, as an atheist, you would understand that you and everyone else on this planet only has one life. To ruin it by doing "wrong" would be, well, a waste.

 

[Pebbles]

Because you possess empathy for others in painful situations. When you see someone hurting another you identify with the victim and feel horror at witnessing the attack.

I have a question for you oats are you only good and kind so that you can be rewarded in the afterlife?

 

[Mike]

Because, as an atheist, you would understand that you and everyone else on this planet only has one life. To ruin it by doing "wrong" would be, well, a waste.

If right and wrong was not universal and established by God, it would be determined individually. In order to advance our genes, this would be dictated by self-preservation. I'm not saying atheists or agnostics cannot be very decent people to have as neighbors, but without the unchanging Truth woven into them (even though they don't consciously know it or reject that it is), they would resort to "every man for him/her self".

Because you possess empathy for others in painful situations. When you see someone hurting another you identify with the victim and feel horror at witnessing the attack.

I have a question for you oats are you only good and kind so that you can be rewarded in the afterlife?

I know this was directed at Oats, but I believe he, you, Jakeness and I do good. The difference between Oats and I is that we recognize Who places the desire on our hearts, and (to your question) we don't do it to earn salvation. We do it to respond to His Grace out of gratitude. It's a natural response. I know this has been said before, but your question has also been posed before, so it's not sinking in.

Our faith holds that any good that's done not in His Name and for His Glory is worthless, because it does not serve the ultimate purpose - to show the lost the Love of God.

 

[WIP]

I can see how a non-believer might be concerned about right vs. wrong simply because just like believers they care about others and themselves. Being a non-believer doesn’t mean you are a brutal barbarian in the human sense. Actually, in my experience, some of the most self-righteous, judgmental, and cruel people I have met are those that claim to be Christian. Some of the nicest, most generous and loving people I have met have been atheist. Unfortunately, being nice, generous, and loving won’t save anyone from condemnation. The difference is in the motivation. For the non-believer the motivation comes from themselves. For a believer the motivation comes from the Holy Spirit.


Doing right vs. doing wrong is of no consequence toward salvation. We could live our entire life as perfect examples of righteousness, minus the spiritual aspects, and we would not be be any more worthy of heaven than the worst brute on the planet simply because we have only done our duty, see Luke 17.


Works without faith is dead, see James. Works will not save us. We are already condemned for our transgressions and only by picking up our cross (guilt), believing, and following our Lord Jesus Christ do we have hope. As was already mentioned, doing right is a genuine and loving reaction to the saving grace of God and not a means to an end.

 

[Oats]

Because, as an atheist, you would understand that you and everyone else on this planet only has one life. To ruin it by doing "wrong" would be, well, a waste.

life is pointless anyway...i only care about me. there is no right or wrong

*remember this is a role play*

 

[Oats]

Because you possess empathy for others in painful situations. When you see someone hurting another you identify with the victim and feel horror at witnessing the attack.

I have a question for you oats are you only good and kind so that you can be rewarded in the afterlife?

i don't believe in the afterlife

i'm good and kind so i can advance in this life full of people who don't matter

after all everything is a random result of the big bang



*role play People, role play

 

[Pebbles]

i don't believe in the afterlife

i'm good and kind so i can advance in this life full of people who don't matter

after all everything is a random result of the big bang

You write that as a joke... now I can take a joke even if I found it not funny. but alot of jokes are told from positions that the comedian often thinks is true even abstract ones, are you writing what you actually think as a joke to stop me responding to it?

Is that really how you believe I think when I see someone in extreme distress and I go and help them? Or I see the story of another individual who is viciously persecuted?

 

[jasoncran]

sheesh, do we have to assume the athiest doesnt have a sense of right or wrong?

while i do believe that the the lord defines what is right or wrong.

but to assume that the athiest/agnostic doesnt care about fellow men is wrong and(i used to make this mistake)

yes there are greedy ,cold hearted athiests and so called christians do the same.

 

[Oats]

sheesh, do we have to assume the athiest doesnt have a sense of right or wrong?

while i do believe that the the lord defines what is right or wrong.

but to assume that the athiest/agnostic doesnt care about fellow men is wrong and(i used to make this mistake)

yes there are greedy ,cold hearted athiests and so called christians do the same.

you can't have right or wrong without God


because without God there isn't a basis for right and wrong

 

[jasoncran]

you can't have right or wrong without God


because without God there isn't a basis for right and wrong

ok, before you blast me for stating that.

so by your thinking all atheist must be murders.rapists, and all that is evil simply because they dont believe in God?

that, my friend is far from the truth, yes they follow a different set of rules in some areas,but that doest mean all must be if they dont have god?

ever know a sinner who helped you? treated you better then any christian?

i know a man(gay) that didnt cuss much, lie and steal.

and yet he was more helping to the poor then the churched.

those are the hardest to reach.

i know an agnostic who i work with who doest this

gives to the local homeless shelter
sends gifts to the troops


and she has kids and her ex- husband doesnt pay her child support

and its ouch for me as i dont do things she does.

therefore who is more christlike?

does this means she is saved.no but men are women are capable of some good without being a christian.

doesnt mean that they are saved at all.

 

[Oats]

ok, before you blast me for stating that.

so by your thinking all atheist must be murders.rapists, and all that is evil simply because they dont believe in God?

that, my friend is far from the truth, yes they follow a different set of rules in some areas,but that doest mean all must be if they dont have god?

ever know a sinner who helped you? treated you better then any christian?

i know a man(gay) that didnt cuss much, lie and steal.

and yet he was more helping to the poor then the churched.

those are the hardest to reach.

i know an agnostic who i work with who doest this

gives to the local homeless shelter
sends gifts to the troops


and she has kids and her ex- husband doesnt pay her child support

and its ouch for me as i dont do things she does.

therefore who is more christlike?

does this means she is saved.no but men are women are capable of some good without being a christian.

doesnt mean that they are saved at all.

your post are hard to read ....period


I said yes an atheist can be a good person


but he doesn't have a reason to


in other words

If there is no God , then man sets the standard for right and wrong

If God exist he sets the standard

If man sets the standard he cannot hold another man to his standard, everyman can do exactly what he wants

even if the majority agrees they cannot force me to believe in there standard because it is convenient to them and not me


if man doesn't set the standard and there is an unspoken law then there is someone behind it...namely God

People are forced to follow the law of Gravity

Man is not forced to follow the moral law, and couldn't even if he tried to uphold it 100% of the time

 

[jasoncran]

your post are hard to read ....period


I said yes an atheist can be a good person


but he doesn't have a reason to


in other words

If there is no God , then man sets the standard for right and wrong

If God exist he sets the standard

If man sets the standard he cannot hold another man to his standard, everyman can do exactly what he wants

even if the majority agrees they cannot force me to believe in there standard because it is convenient to them and not me


if man doesn't set the standard and there is an unspoken law then there is someone behind it...namely God

People are forced to follow the law of Gravity

Man is not forced to follow the moral law, and couldn't even if he tried to uphold it 100% of the time

you arguing that the athiest cant be moral without god, thus not a good person.

he cant do it all be perfect without the regenerated heart.

i am saying that there are some that are so close that you would think they are christians if you didnt know them or are saying that they are , but really arent

jesus talked about those.

not all athiests

believe in abortion
believe in gay rights
yes they have thier own reason why they do that,but some do agree with us.(few in number)

 

[Oats]

you arguing that the athiest cant be moral without god, thus not a good person.

he cant do it all be perfect without the regenerated heart.

i am saying that there are some that are so close that you would think they are christians if you didnt know them or are saying that they are , but really arent

jesus talked about those.

not all athiests

believe in abortion
believe in gay rights
yes they have thier own reason why they do that,but some do agree with us.(few in number)

Dude!

I did not say atheist were bad people...

I said without God there is no moral standard.


read my post....i read yours even though they are hard to read

 

[jasoncran]

let me ask you this
romans 2
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

i think that applies.

do men ignore that, yes but often you will find that those that are really good athiest are following the law, and know when they do wrong but wont admit that it points to god

 

[Oats]

let me ask you this
romans 2
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

i think that applies.

do men ignore that, yes but often you will find that those that are really good athiest are following the law, and know when they do wrong but wont admit that it points to god

you are babbling and ignoring my post

 

[jasoncran]

actually i am not.

your claiming that men need god to be perfect and do good.

correct?

yes that is your claim

when the lord wrote his law upon all men's hearts.meaning that deep down inside they all know who god is.

i have a friend who is a christian now and turned from god and denied him

he states that athiest/agnostic often try to convince you and themselves theres no God and often they know him to be real and were hurt by the church or some unanswered prayer.

that is why i posted that.

any Good that an athiest does is from God as he wrote the definition of right or wrong upon mens heart.

can that conscience be ignored or unlearned?

yup

the conscience is compass that makes you feel guilty so that you come to christ.

 

[Oats]

actually i am not.

your claiming that men need god to be perfect and do good.

correct?

yes that is your claim

when the lord wrote his law upon all men's hearts.meaning that deep down inside they all know who god is.

i have a friend who is a christian now and turned from god and denied him

he states that athiest/agnostic often try to convince you and themselves theres no God and often they know him to be real and were hurt by the church or some unanswered prayer.

that is why i posted that.

any Good that an athiest does is from God as he wrote the definition of right or wrong upon mens heart.

can that conscience be ignored or unlearned?

yup

the conscience is compass that makes you feel guilty so that you come to christ.

that is not my claim!

my claim is without a standard other than morality itself , it is not a standard that needs to be kept.

 

[Jakeness]

If right and wrong was not universal and established by God, it would be determined individually. In order to advance our genes, this would be dictated by self-preservation. I'm not saying atheists or agnostics cannot be very decent people to have as neighbors, but without the unchanging Truth woven into them (even though they don't consciously know it or reject that it is), they would resort to "every man for him/her self".

I am not sure how "universal morals" make any sense. On another website, it asked "Do you believe there are moral absolutes?" When I answered no, it replied somewhat along the lines of "seriously? It's not absolutely morally wrong to rape kids?" The answer is clearly no, because people do rape kids and therefore is not a moral absolute. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the argument though, because that seemed way too easy to refute.

Also, I strongly disagree that without "unchanging Truth" woven, we would resort to free-for-all behavior. We have group (or pack) behavior instincts which would prevent this from happening.

life is pointless anyway...i only care about me. there is no right or wrong

*remember this is a role play*

Dude, I'm sorry but if you're going to role-play, you should first understand the position you are taking. No healthy person, regardless of their religious views, acts like this.

 

[Deavonreye]

I agree with Jakeness. This thread is rather ridiculous. Society must be reactive to "moral standards" because we are a social species and therefore must work together for the society to work. The anti-social person is locked away so he can't do further harm to the society as a whole. This is so incredibly simple!!