Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

[_ Old Earth _] Literal or Figurative 6 Day Creation

Hi, I posted this on another thread and thought it may be of interest.. :)

I have read this on another website and was wondering what others may think about the time-scales etc..


Extract
We are taught in the Scripture, `one day upon our earth is as a thousand years with God'. Although each day was distinguished by `an evening and a morning', they were six distinct periods of one thousand years wherein God expressed His creative thoughts that would transform earth from an uninhabited lifeless wilderness to the manifestation of those thoughts in an Eden on the Seventh Day

and

God took six thousand years to create Eden. So it was on the Seventh Day, after God had FINISHED His creating, that the things which are seen were formed or manifested. And on this Seventh Day, Satan deceived the woman. God had said, `the day you partake of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, that day you will surely die'. Eve was seduced by the Serpent, then taught her husband the facts of life and bore two children in her womb: Cain who was born of the wicked one, and Abel who was born of the son of God. Because Adam chose to die in order to redeem Eve, no man has yet fulfilled a day in God's reckoning which would be a thousand years. The oldest man, Methuselah, lived for 969 years.

Now I think we need to quote a few more Scriptures where this word `day' or `yowm', is used, so we can dismiss forever the folly of men who claim God created a finished earth from scratch to the garden of Eden in six solar days of twenty-four hours.
There is the day `yowm' of the Lord. Isaiah 4:1, `And in THAT DAY seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by Thy Name, to take away our reproach'. Revelation 1:10, `I was in the Spirit in the Lord's DAY, and heard behind me a great Voice, as of a trumpet'.

Now `the Lord's Day' or `yowm' is yet future, after the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet to Israel, marking the end of the Gentile dispensation. It is the conclusion of man's day, and not twenty-four hours. John was caught up in the Spirit in the Lord's day for TWO YEARS whilst he was on the Isle of Patmos, and saw things which will come to pass in that time. So a `yowm' does not necessarily mean twenty-four hours any than our English word always means twenty-four hours. And John did not see these visions only on Sunday, as the Brethren denominations teach.

In other instances the word `day' means time itself. Genesis 4:3, `And in PROCESS OF TIME `yowm' it came to pass..' Numbers 20:15, `And we have dwelt in Egypt a LONG TIME, `yowm' ...' A long time indeed! For here a `yowm', the word that appears in Genesis as the creative period and is called there, `day', was 430 years.

Finally let us repeat Genesis 2:4, `These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in THE DAY `yowm' that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens'. In the Genesis one, the story was given in `yowms' or DAYS, or time periods (plural) -- each with `an evening and a morning'. But in the Genesis 2, as one day (singular).

Without the Holy Spirit to guide us into the truth of His Word, we would be confused as to whether His creation was six days or one day. And we'd have a contradiction in the Bible..
We are taught in the Scripture, `one day upon our earth is as a thousand years with God'

END





http://getwiththeword.blogspot.com/
 
Nick_29 said:
...I am saying that we take the creation story as true, and that God created it all. The only part I don't take literally is the time period, as six literal days.
Do you identify the mechanism or process of creation? The evidence available indicates that new stars (and consequently new planets) are being formed by apparently natural processes -

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/spitzer/multimedia/20080603c.html

Is it your argument that God used such natural processes in the creative action - i.e. are you suggesting that something like the Big Bang was the initial creative action and the Universe evolved from that single act of creation - or is it your argument that the act of creation caused everything to form 'ready-made'?
 
lordkalvan said:
Nick_29 said:
...I am saying that we take the creation story as true, and that God created it all. The only part I don't take literally is the time period, as six literal days.
Do you identify the mechanism or process of creation? The evidence available indicates that new stars (and consequently new planets) are being formed by apparently natural processes -

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/spitzer/multimedia/20080603c.html

Is it your argument that God used such natural processes in the creative action - i.e. are you suggesting that something like the Big Bang was the initial creative action and the Universe evolved from that single act of creation - or is it your argument that the act of creation caused everything to form 'ready-made'?
I'm saying that how it happened we may never know for certain, and we probably should't dwell on these things......but, it is likely that God might have used some scientific processes to complete his work. It's all possible.
 
Moses was using it as a stylized framework to hang 6 vital aspects off. They were never meant to be taken literally & for those who do – GREAT for taking the bible so seriously but it’s not how to read the literature so they are mistaken. So we just want to keep reading the bible with them but not get hung up or break fellowship over this.

Nick, how does this pastor, your source, know what Moshe meant with respect to what was or was not to be taken literally? I mean I seriously see some major problems with this view. If we can call into question Moshes account of creation then we can call into question Moshes account of other parts of the Torah.
 
RND said:
Moses was using it as a stylized framework to hang 6 vital aspects off. They were never meant to be taken literally & for those who do – GREAT for taking the bible so seriously but it’s not how to read the literature so they are mistaken. So we just want to keep reading the bible with them but not get hung up or break fellowship over this.

Nick, how does this pastor, your source, know what Moshe meant with respect to what was or was not to be taken literally? I mean I seriously see some major problems with this view. If we can call into question Moshes account of creation then we can call into question Moshes account of other parts of the Torah.
Well we can't know for certain what Moses meant...but this is my pastor's conclusion from what he said above, which are very logical reasons. He is not questioning Moses at all, just suggesting that Moses and God may not have inteded we take the time period literally. IF we do take the time period literally, we ignore heaps of scientifice evidence to say otherwise. The world must have been created longer ago than 6000 years.
 
nadab said:
Nick_29,

Genesis 2:1, 2 says that "the heavens and the earth and all their army came to their completion. And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made." Does God tire out from his creative work ? Concerning the universe, Isaiah says: "Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing...Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary."(Isa 40:26, 28) Thus, God never ' tires out or grows weary', but is "vigorous in power".

By the end of the sixth "creative" day, God had brought to completion all his handiwork regarding the earth, but not the universe.(Gen 1:31) The seventh "creative" day was then set aside as a sacred "day of rest" (Ex 20:11), with him desisting from any earthly creative work and allowing it to grow and develop till the earth is "filled" with perfect humans by the end of the seventh "creative" day.(Gen 1:28) Under the Mosaic Law, God told the nation of Israel that they were to work on six days, but the seventh day was to be a sabbath.(Ex 20:8-10) The Hebrew expression yohm hash·shab·bath´ is drawn from the verb sha·vath´, meaning “rest, cease", as at Genesis 2:2 and 8:22.

God purposed that the earth remain forever as mankind's "home", so by the end of the seventh "creative" day, God will indeed have from one end of the earth to the other end, righteous mankind, for Isaiah 11:9 says of animals and mankind living together in harmony, as was true in the Garden of Eden: "They (the animals) shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea."(American Standard Version) He further said that "all the days the earth continues, seed sowing and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, will never cease.â€(Gen 8:22)

Hence, by the end of the seventh "creative" day, God's purpose for the earth will have come full circle, it being restored to it's original paradise condition, with God "making all things new".(Rev 21:5)
Is it wonderful that God gave us a weekly reminder of His creative and redemptive power by giving us the seventh-day sabbath?
 
RND said:
nadab said:
Nick_29,

Genesis 2:1, 2 says that "the heavens and the earth and all their army came to their completion. And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made." Does God tire out from his creative work ? Concerning the universe, Isaiah says: "Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing...Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary."(Isa 40:26, 28) Thus, God never ' tires out or grows weary', but is "vigorous in power".

By the end of the sixth "creative" day, God had brought to completion all his handiwork regarding the earth, but not the universe.(Gen 1:31) The seventh "creative" day was then set aside as a sacred "day of rest" (Ex 20:11), with him desisting from any earthly creative work and allowing it to grow and develop till the earth is "filled" with perfect humans by the end of the seventh "creative" day.(Gen 1:28) Under the Mosaic Law, God told the nation of Israel that they were to work on six days, but the seventh day was to be a sabbath.(Ex 20:8-10) The Hebrew expression yohm hash·shab·bath´ is drawn from the verb sha·vath´, meaning “rest, cease", as at Genesis 2:2 and 8:22.

God purposed that the earth remain forever as mankind's "home", so by the end of the seventh "creative" day, God will indeed have from one end of the earth to the other end, righteous mankind, for Isaiah 11:9 says of animals and mankind living together in harmony, as was true in the Garden of Eden: "They (the animals) shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea."(American Standard Version) He further said that "all the days the earth continues, seed sowing and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, will never cease.â€(Gen 8:22)

Hence, by the end of the seventh "creative" day, God's purpose for the earth will have come full circle, it being restored to it's original paradise condition, with God "making all things new".(Rev 21:5)
Is it wonderful that God gave us a weekly reminder of His creative and redemptive power by giving us the seventh-day sabbath?
What's your point?
 
Nick_29 said:
Well we can't know for certain what Moses meant...but this is my pastor's conclusion from what he said above, which are very logical reasons.
Your pastor's quote seems very definate that one can.

He is not questioning Moses at all, just suggesting that Moses and God may not have inteded we take the time period literally.
Nick, I think your pastors words speak for themselves. Let's read them again, "They were never meant to be taken literally ..."

Seems clear to me what he meant.

IF we do take the time period literally, we ignore heaps of scientifice evidence to say otherwise.
What "heaps of scientific evidence"?

The world must have been created longer ago than 6000 years.
On if we choose to buy into thoughts like, "They were never meant to be taken literally ..."
 
St. Augustine may be the single most influential and respected Christian theologian. And he pointed out many reasons why Genesis cannot be literally true. A literal Genesis has never been the Christian position, although some Christians have believed it.

It is not a salvation issue, and there is nothing in believing in a literal Genesis that contradicts Christian belief.
 
The Barbarian said:
St. Augustine may be the single most influential and respected Christian theologian. And he pointed out many reasons why Genesis cannot be literally true. A literal Genesis has never been the Christian position, although some Christians have believed it.

It is not a salvation issue, and there is nothing in believing in a literal Genesis that contradicts Christian belief.
Thanks barbarian, but by literally true...what do you mean? Are you talking about time?
 
Mostly time. St. Augustine wrote that the days were categories of creation, set out to emphasize that all aspects of the universe are due to God's creation. As you probably know, Augustine's work on the subject translates to "The Literal Meaning of Genesis", i.e. what the Author intended it to mean.

He didn't mean to say that all of it was allegorical. For example, He believed that Adam and Eve were real people, which I think is a belief that is essential to our faith.
 
The Barbarian said:
Mostly time. St. Augustine wrote that the days were categories of creation, set out to emphasize that all aspects of the universe are due to God's creation. As you probably know, Augustine's work on the subject translates to "The Literal Meaning of Genesis", i.e. what the Author intended it to mean.

He didn't mean to say that all of it was allegorical. For example, He believed that Adam and Eve were real people, which I think is a belief that is essential to our faith.
OK, welll then I would agree with you. I haven't heard of this St.Augustine, maybe I'll check him out. Thankyou.
 
Nick_29 said:
[quote="The Barbarian":1dcziv1m]Mostly time. St. Augustine wrote that the days were categories of creation, set out to emphasize that all aspects of the universe are due to God's creation. As you probably know, Augustine's work on the subject translates to "The Literal Meaning of Genesis", i.e. what the Author intended it to mean.

He didn't mean to say that all of it was allegorical. For example, He believed that Adam and Eve were real people, which I think is a belief that is essential to our faith.
OK, welll then I would agree with you. I haven't heard of this St.Augustine, maybe I'll check him out. Thankyou.[/quote:1dcziv1m]

ORLY? Even I have lol, and I'm an Atheist haha. He's the hippo.
 
Personally I think that there are several things that are certainly literal in the Bible and there's simply no way of getting around them.

When your God spends a few chapters committing genocide and killing children you can't get out of it, there's no symbolic interpretation lol.

Genesis is one of those things that I'm fine with Christians having a non-literal interpretation of, it's so obviously filled with rhetoric & allegory that it just ain't funny.

A talking serpent? A sin that makes you aware of your nakedness? The "fruit"? Something tells me that the tree was symbolic of something else.....
 
Sir Pwn4lot said:
Personally I think that there are several things that are certainly literal in the Bible and there's simply no way of getting around them.

When your God spends a few chapters committing genocide and killing children you can't get out of it, there's no symbolic interpretation lol.

Genesis is one of those things that I'm fine with Christians having a non-literal interpretation of, it's so obviously filled with rhetoric & allegory that it just ain't funny.

A talking serpent? A sin that makes you aware of your nakedness? The "fruit"? Something tells me that the tree was symbolic of something else.....
well those are for another topic.
 
Wwe know from geology and astronomy that it did not happen anywhere in the neighborhood of 6,000 years ago; the earth and the universe are orders of magnitude older.
 
coelacanth said:
Wwe know from geology and astronomy that it did not happen anywhere in the neighborhood of 6,000 years ago; the earth and the universe are orders of magnitude older.
I agree, but this topic is not about when creation happened but how long creation took. But geology does suggest that it took longer than 6 literal days.
 
Nick_29 said:
coelacanth said:
Wwe know from geology and astronomy that it did not happen anywhere in the neighborhood of 6,000 years ago; the earth and the universe are orders of magnitude older.
I agree, but this topic is not about when creation happened but how long creation took. But geology does suggest that it took longer than 6 literal days.

People have it wrong lol, the absurd thing isn't saying that God created us in 6 days, the absurd thing to say is that he didn't use evolution.
 
Sir Pwn4lot said:
[quote="Nick_29":11f7mtva]
coelacanth said:
Wwe know from geology and astronomy that it did not happen anywhere in the neighborhood of 6,000 years ago; the earth and the universe are orders of magnitude older.
I agree, but this topic is not about when creation happened but how long creation took. But geology does suggest that it took longer than 6 literal days.

People have it wrong lol, the absurd thing isn't saying that God created us in 6 days, the absurd thing to say is that he didn't use evolution.[/quote:11f7mtva]
Well the Bible doesn't tell us how God created us, so some aspects of evolution could have been used.

But it really is pointless to try and guess this stuff. We should be focusisng on more important things.
 
Back
Top