Local Church Confusion...Discipleship vs Submission

[jonahmano]

So when you go to a movie, or a picnic, or a joy ride or a long holiday abroad, you don't need your Pastor's permission and when you want to preach the gospel or do some personal ministry, you need the permission of your Pastor. Can we agree with this?

Hasn't Christ commanded us to make disciples everywhere and not set up local church empires?

 

[Roro1972]

No

 

[Knotical]

Technically you do not need the permission of your Pastor (or elders for that matter) if you are promoting a personal ministry, unless of course you are doing it as a representation of your church. However, it is always a good idea to get their guidance as to your message.

As for the church empire thing, no we are not to be looking to build our own church empires. That would be akin to what the Joel Osteens of the world are doing. We should focus more on starting small churches with sound teachings/doctrine.

 

[for_his_glory]

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

First off, the Church (not the building) is the body of believers in Christ who are Spiritually born-again, John 3:3-7, Romans 10:9, 10, and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that seals us unto the day of redemption, 2 Corinthians 1:21,22 and teaches us all truths, John 14:26. Everyone has a witness and a testimony and that is usually the best place to start when you are speaking to others about Jesus. We are all as a true child of God commissioned by God only to take His word out into the world using His power and authority given to us by His grace.

 

[Jim Parker]

So when you go to a movie, or a picnic, or a joy ride or a long holiday abroad, you don't need your Pastor's permission and when you want to preach the gospel or do some personal ministry, you need the permission of your Pastor. Can we agree with this?

Before anyone goes out to preach the Gospel, he/she needs to know what they're talking about.
2Ti 2:15 (RSV) Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Jesus didn't send out the 12 or the 70 until He had taught them. More than having a pastors "permission", it is a very VERY good idea to get confirmation that the Gospel you plan to preach is Jesus' Gospel and not yours.
Even Paul did that. He went to Jerusalem to check with Peter, John and James and make sure the Gospel he was preaching was correct.
Gal 2:1-2 (RSV) Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. I went up by revelation; and I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute) the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain.

Hasn't Christ commanded us to make disciples everywhere and not set up local church empires?

Jesus told the 11 remaining apostles to make disciples. (Mat 28:16-20) Those aren't just anyone but, rather, the people that He personally discipled and who were qualified by His teaching make disciples. We also need to be trained because how we lead others has ETERNAL consequences.
Owning a Bible does not qualify a person to make disciples. That is not to say that God can't or won't use a brand new Christian for evangelism but someone who has not been discipled is not qualified to disciple others.
And, unfortunately, most churches do not disciple people; they substitute classroom teaching for discipleship. Classes are only part of discipleship. If you want to see real discipleship today, go to Paris Island where Marine recruits are being discipled in boot camp. Can you imagine the consequences of giving marines classroom instruction only on how to use a rifle, how to use fire and maneuver, hand-to-hand combat, etc. and then sending them into real live combat? Better hope we have plenty of body bags!

Classroom instruction is not discipleship. Classes offer intellectual material. Discipleship includes the concept of discipline. Discipleship is training that enables a person to replace old, self-destructive habits with new life-sustaining habits. So, the habits like partying all night; sleeping all day and smoking two joints at regular intervals are replaced with the habits like getting up early, praying, working hard all day, praying some more and getting a good n night's sleep.
Discipleship is the process of making a new way of life your way of life

A "local church empire" is a business disguised as a church. Religion has always been a good business. The leader of such a business is a "proprietor", not a pastor. His business is fleecing sheep, not "building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ."

Would Jesus wear a Rolex on His TV show?

You have just subjected yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool.
No warrantee declared or implied.
individual mileage may vary.
Enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[By Grace]

Before anyone goes out to preach the Gospel, he/she needs to know what they're talking about.
2Ti 2:15 (RSV) Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

I am not quite sure of your point, so I ask you to clarify whom or what you are targeting in the OP

You begin by stating that there is a difference between "Discipleship and submission" but you fail to make a definition for what exactly each of those are. Therefore all the responding posters can do is make a guess as to your intent.

Then you further confuse me because you add a third element ,which is also not explained, nor defined: "Church Empire"

Here is a fourth:

Would Jesus wear a Rolex on His TV show?

HUH?
Could you please rewrite the OP?

 

[Jim Parker]

I am not quite sure of your point, so I ask you to clarify whom or what you are targeting in the OP

What does "OP" mean? Original Post?
I'm not "targeting" anyone.

You begin by stating that there is a difference between "Discipleship and submission" but you fail to make a definition for what exactly each of those are.

Are you sure you're looking at my post? I wrote about the difference between discipleship and a class. (What goes on in a classroom)

Then you further confuse me because you add a third element ,which is also not explained, nor defined: "Church Empire"

I said I understand a "local church empire" to be a business disguised as a church.

HUH?

"Would Jesus wear a Rolex on His TV show?"
"Would Jesus wear a Rolex?" was a song written b y Chet Atkins and Margaret Archer and sung by Ray Stevens.

Could you please rewrite the OP?

The original post was from Jonamano who wrote:
"So when you go to a movie, or a picnic, or a joy ride or a long holiday abroad, you don't need your Pastor's permission and when you want to preach the gospel or do some personal ministry, you need the permission of your Pastor. Can we agree with this?

Hasn't Christ commanded us to make disciples everywhere and not set up local church empires?"
I wuz jus blessin' y'all wit somma mah WHIZdom. GLOW-ray! ( Yeah, I try not to take me too seriously, either. )



You have just subjected yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool.

No warrantee declared or implied.

Individual mileage may vary.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

 

[OzSpen]

What does "OP" mean? Original Post?
I'm not "targeting" anyone.

Are you sure you're looking at my post? I wrote about the difference between discipleship and a class. (What goes on in a classroom)

I said I understand a "local church empire" to be a business disguised as a church.

"Would Jesus wear a Rolex on His TV show?"
"Would Jesus wear a Rolex?" was a song written b y Chet Atkins and Margaret Archer and sung by Ray Stevens.

The original post was from Jonamano who wrote:
"So when you go to a movie, or a picnic, or a joy ride or a long holiday abroad, you don't need your Pastor's permission and when you want to preach the gospel or do some personal ministry, you need the permission of your Pastor. Can we agree with this?

Hasn't Christ commanded us to make disciples everywhere and not set up local church empires?"
I wuz jus blessin' y'all wit somma mah WHIZdom. GLOW-ray! ( Yeah, I try not to take me too seriously, either. )

You have just subjected yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool.

No warrantee declared or implied.

Individual mileage may vary.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

Jim,

Here's a better link (it works) to: 'Would Jesus wear a Rolex?' by Ray Stevens.

I enjoyed summa yah WHIZdom.

Your Brissy mate,
Oz