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[_ Old Earth _] Logical reasons for ancient stories

  • Thread starter Thread starter Wertbag
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Quath said:
blueeyeliner said:
Ist Cor. 14:33 " For God is not the author of confusion,but of peace...."

Gen 11:6-7: "The LORD said, 'If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.' "

Quath

:smt082 Quath,this is taken way out of context on your part.
God doesn't give us confusion mentally in general. This is an incident
where man kind was doing all kinds of evil,and nothing they planned to
do would be impossible for them to do,as flesh and blood humans they
still had limits but there was nothing that they could not do as far as their
plans to do wicked things was concerned,but as we know they cannot defeat God. Satan must use that scripture many times over to fool the
wicked and the lost. This is not an everyday situation. I do hope you
will try harder to use some common sense.
The languages were confused,but were they given a spirit of confusion
about everything? If they were,then it came from satan,because these
were not Godly people. God does not give a spirit of confusion to the
Child of God,but he will allow satan to sucker punch and fool the wicked.
They will be given over to Satan and a reprobate mind that is perverted.
The wicked shall not understand anything.
 
blueeyeliner said:
Quath,this is taken way out of context on your part.
God doesn't give us confusion mentally in general. This is an incident
where man kind was doing all kinds of evil,and nothing they planned to
do would be impossible for them to do,as flesh and blood humans they
still had limits but there was nothing that they could not do as far as their
plans to do wicked things was concerned,but as we know they cannot defeat God. Satan must use that scripture many times over to fool the
wicked and the lost. This is not an everyday situation. I do hope you
will try harder to use some common sense.
The languages were confused,but were they given a spirit of confusion
about everything? If they were,then it came from satan,because these
were not Godly people. God does not give a spirit of confusion to the
Child of God,but he will allow satan to sucker punch and fool the wicked.
They will be given over to Satan and a reprobate mind that is perverted.
The wicked shall not understand anything.
It sounds like you are taking it the wrong way. God confused the people's languages. It lasted for thousands of years. Is that confusion or not? You can try to justify it all you want, but the bottomline is that it is still confusion. And according to the Bible, God authored that confusion.

However, if you want more examples, look at His actions. He forces the Pharoah to keep the Isralites slaves so He can punish and kill Egyptians. Is that not confusing?

Or look at the 33,000+ denominations of Christianity teaching different docterines and yet all claim to have the Holy Ghost guiding them. Now that is confusing. Is the Holy Ghost confusing people or do people just think they have the Holy Ghost when they do not?

Quath
 
Quath said:
God confused the people's languages. It lasted for thousands of years. Is that confusion or not? You can try to justify it all you want, but the bottomline is that it is still confusion. And according to the Bible, God authored that confusion.

However, if you want more examples, look at His actions. He forces the Pharoah to keep the Isralites slaves so He can punish and kill Egyptians. Is that not confusing?

Or look at the 33,000+ denominations of Christianity teaching different docterines and yet all claim to have the Holy Ghost guiding them. Now that is confusing. Is the Holy Ghost confusing people or do people just think they have the Holy Ghost when they do not?

Quath
:smt038 Was that confusion towards the Godly? If not,then you have
Satan,not God to blame,amen. I said nothing about thousands of years,
you did. I don't know how long it took people to begin understanding one
another again,but it's something I want to learn.
God didn't create or tell people to create all those religions.
Do not make false accusations against the Holy Spirit.
Satan is the one who confuses the people not God,but if you do not
love the truth,he will hand you over to Satan.
Thats why the bible says that Satan is the Father of the wicked.
Their Daddy is the devil.
I hope Satan hasn't made you think that you have commited the
unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Ghost.
He tries to make alot of people think that,just so you'll know.

God trying to show the jew's something is not evil.
 
Even if God confused the langauges, how good of a job did he do?

Languages are being lost at an astounding rate. The number of actual spoken languages decreases ever year (and has been doing so since recorded history began, as countries invaded and took over other countries.) Most of the world only speaks about 10 languages.

There really is no confusion anymore. There actually hasn't been real confusion for all of recorded history. Translaters have always been used, and used quite well. 5 years after the Tower of Babel, if it happened, I'm sure there were adequate translators between all the people.

It could almost be argued that today there is one language common to all humans....HTML.

Where is the confusion?
 
:smt115 I am not saying other wise. I believe the common
language to a great number of people is curse words actually,but
as you say,it's almost like it was at the tower of Babel.
The jew's will once again have a pure hebrew langiage one day,but
I'd say in general that it's getting to the place where everyone can
understand one another now. I believe it will increase also.
Bible prophecy is happening at a much faster rate now.

I believe the confusion did however last long enough for different
races to form. That must have taken quite some time.
 
blueeyeliner said:
:smt115 I am not saying other wise. I believe the common
language to a great number of people is curse words actually,but
as you say,it's almost like it was at the tower of Babel.
The jew's will once again have a pure hebrew langiage one day,but
I'd say in general that it's getting to the place where everyone can
understand one another now. I believe it will increase also.
Bible prophecy is happening at a much faster rate now.

I believe the confusion did however last long enough for different
races to form. That must have taken quite some time.

Blue...when did the tower of Babel happen? After the flood, supposedly, but how long ago. I think most YECs place the flood at about 2300 BC, right?

Give me timeline of this so I can understand how much time to took for "races to form" under your theory.
 
Was that confusion towards the Godly? If not,then you have
Satan,not God to blame,amen.

I see no provision in the verse that says that god is not the author of confusion that says that he only refrains from authoring it to the ungodly. Similarly, the Bible says god, not satan, confused the languages. How can you reconcile your belief that every bit of confusion towards the ungodly is the work of satan and your belief that the Bible is perfectly true?
 
Chupacabra said:
Was that confusion towards the Godly? If not,then you have
Satan,not God to blame,amen.

I see no provision in the verse that says that god is not the author of confusion that says that he only refrains from authoring it to the ungodly. Similarly, the Bible says god, not satan, confused the languages. How can you reconcile your belief that every bit of confusion towards the ungodly is the work of satan and your belief that the Bible is perfectly true?

:smt043 Then find the scriptures where God confused the righteous.
The ungodly invite beatings upon themselves,and they are the ones who
will be destroyed. God has already warned the ungodly and told them
their fate for being wicked. Satan causes confusion because he doesn't
want anyone to be saved and believe in God. God knows who the ungodly
are. They won't be able to understand the scriptures,and thats written in
the bible,yet they still believe they can interpret them somehow.
God does allow the wicked to be confused,and don't think satan isn't happy about it because it must thrill him to no end. He wants to make sure
he has a crowd when he finally arrives in the lake of fire.
My belief in God came before I understood anything in the bible. I believe
the bible because of the Holy Spirit who testifies that it is the truth.
I'm not so vain and arrogant that I think I know more than God or his
ancient word. I cannot doubt what I know. That would be rebellion and it
would be wrong,and I don't want to do it.
I know God is real,and the bible has to be true whether or not all people
understand it or not. God is much choosier than some people know.
God is not willing that any should perish but he's not going to beg anyone
and he's not going to kiss anyone's booty,amen.
Getting past yourself may be hard to do,but it's worth every bit of it!
 
ThinkerMan said:
Blue...when did the tower of Babel happen? After the flood, supposedly, but how long ago. I think most YECs place the flood at about 2300 BC, right?

Give me timeline of this so I can understand how much time to took for "races to form" under your theory.

:smt027 Thinkerman,I told you I haven't studied that yet,but I do
know it has nothing to do with TOE. Look,if you want to be an atheist
thats your thing. I just don't understand what made you choose to
believe in TOE when you would of been much better off being free
not to believe in any man made ideas related to any religious views,
or otherwise. If I didn't know if God existed or not,thats what I would
have done. I wouldn't follow the crowd,I'd want to get away from it.
Atheists are suppose to be non - conformists,or so I once thought they
were. Now,it appears a great many follow the crowd and the opinions
of others greatly.
 
Thinkerman,I told you I haven't studied that yet,but I do
know it has nothing to do with TOE

If you haven't studied it, how do you "KNOW" anything?

I never insinuated it had to do with TOE. I only was asking for your theory so I could compare it to the one I know.

Once again blue, you have demonstrated blind rejection of an alternative idea, while admitting you have no objective viewpoint.

Nice going..

Atheists are suppose to be non - conformists,or so I once thought they
were. Now,it appears a great many follow the crowd and the opinions
of others greatly.

"If I have seen farther than others, it is because I stood upon the shoulders of giants" - Attributed to Issac Newton.

Yes blue, I depend heavily on the research, ideas and peer review of others. Even the brightest minds(Galileo, Newton, Einstein) did the same.

As much as I would like to do so, I cannot learn all there is to learn about astronomy, genetics, biology, physics, chemistry, history, archeology, etc.

The best I can do is learn as much as I can, and objectively review those theories that go farther down the road than I am capable of doing myself.
 
ThinkerMan said:
Thinkerman,I told you I haven't studied that yet,but I do
know it has nothing to do with TOE

If you haven't studied it, how do you "KNOW" anything?

:smt024 I don't think it matters how long it took to know that it
was long enough for certain groups of people to look alot alike,and
create the races of people we have now. Your idea of five years
really has no good sense to it at all,and you are objective?
It sounds to me like you just don't want God to exist,simple as that.
I wouldn't call those people you listed the greatest minds ever to exist.
How bright could you be without God? Not very,amen.
Why not venture out and be objective and study the books about a
christian mind by christians so you can debate with much more logic?
Learn about those who truly have a relationship with God,because if
you don't,you are not informed enough to debate christians. If you are
always reading books based on a secular world view,of course you can't
understand the christians,no secret there. I know that all the races of
people didn't just happen over night,I'll tell you that straight up.
You never did answer most of my questions,like why did geographical
location determine what race we had from our ancestor's. Why did
location matter? Also,languages didn't just get here over night either,and
for sure not so many of them just sprung up out of no where.
 
I don't think it matters how long it took to know that it
was long enough for certain groups of people to look alot alike,and
create the races of people we have now. Your idea of five years
really has no good sense to it at all,and you are objective?

I just guessed. 5 years, even if it was 30 years, seems adequate time to learn begin communicating between two languages. Anthropologist do this from time to time when they encounter new cultures (not too often anymore).

Regardless of the time, I was just pointing out that utter confusion seems unlikely, as withing a relatively short period of time everyone should have been able to communicate.

Why not venture out and be objective and study the books about a
christian mind by christians so you can debate with much more logic?
Learn about those who truly have a relationship with God,because if
you don't,you are not informed enough to debate christians. If you are
always reading books based on a secular world view,of course you can't
understand the christians,no secret there

I have read numerous christian books (I was christian once, remember). I still continue to read them.

Do I not always ask for your point of view and why you feel a certain way?

I understand your point of view, I simply disagree with it.

You never did answer most of my questions,like why did geographical
location determine what race we had from our ancestor's

Genetic evolution provides the ancestors. As humans emerged from Africa and spread to the various parts of the world, they were seperated geographically, and allowed to drift genetically in different directions.

Over tens of thousands of years, the subsets of humans evolved in different ways which better suited them for their environment. Because the were to far apart to mate and share genes, certain traits stayed localized to only that geographic area.

Africans developed darker skin and leaner frames in hotter areas. A taller, leaner frame will dissapate heat faster and keep the body cool.

For the same reason, Inuits evolved shorter, stouter bodies to maintain body heat in cold arctic areas.

Some differences may have no necessarily "positive" or "negative" effects, such as the shape of many Asian's eyes. It simply was a trait that began in that geographical area. Because they did not interbreed with Native Americans or Germans, that trait remained localized.

Why did
location matter?

Because when you live outside and work outside. Environment matters.

Since a shorter, stockier frame gives a person a better chance of survival in a cold climate, they will more likely survive, and pass on genes for other short and stocky sons and daughters. Perhaps even in that culture, women viewed stockier men as more fit husbands.

As a higher percentage of taller people die out, shorter people begin to rule. Thus, a society of mostly shorter and stockier people are found in cold areas.

The exact opposite thing happens in Sub-Saharan Africa.

Does any of this sound unreasonable?


Also,languages didn't just get here over night either,and
for sure not so many of them just sprung up out of no where.

Isn't that exactly what the bible says happens? That after Babel God instantly confused the langauges?

Languages did not just pop up over night. They emerged in different areas at different times, and many languages (like English) evolved from other languages.

Linguists are quite able to track families of languages, and understand where the most ancient langauges emerged and how they led to new ones.

Interestingly, if God confused the languages, why are some so closely related to others?

Spanish and Italian are basically identical. English and Chinese couldn't be more different. If God confused and created all languages, one would expect that each one would be exactly as different as any other.

That is not the case at all.
 
ThinkerMan said:
Over tens of thousands of years, the subsets of humans evolved in different ways which better suited them for their environment. Because the were to far apart to mate and share genes, certain traits stayed localized to only that geographic area.

:smt024 Do mexicans realize yet that they may have come from
Cuba and Puerto Rico yet instead of Mexico because they speak basically
the same language? Mexican's are often told that they came from the
native American's and The Spanish. How true can that be for most of them?
I don't know why you changed your heart about God or christianity,
but believing in Evolution makes me realize that if you were a true
atheist you most likely wouldn't accept such a tale as the truth when it
is so out in the open un-provable,and has no facts to go on.
As I said,if I were an atheist,I would stear clear of evolution and I sure
wouldn't let others see me as someone who accepted such a fable.
I'd be my own person and not follow any crowd,and especially knowing
that evolution has it's roots in pagan religion.
So whatever your reasons were for dis-continuing your faith in God,I
cannot understand them because of your faith in evolution.
I cannot see how you could turn away from God and make any sense
out of it. I understand why women who are abused by their husbands
can be tempted to cheat on them with another man,even though it's a
sin and it's still wrong,I can see how a woman could be tempted into
such a thing. We all make mistakes,but I cannot see how one would
lose faith in God and then turn around and believe in evolution.
Some christians believe in evolution which makes more sense because
evolution came from ancient religious groups,but an atheist accepting it
is just too hard to understand.
You are trying to force evolution to make sense when it clearly doesn't,
and trying to make it make sense in how we got our races and language
is too off the wall for me.
My Great Grandparents were just married in 1901 and we still have many
language barriers today,even though language is becoming global and people can understand all the languages alot better,we still haven't gotten
that far yet and we are just barely bringing all languages together so that
all people can understand one another globally. People could not understand all the languages just 50 years ago even.
One hundred years ago it was even less understandable.
We are now reaching a time where all people can understand each other
much better but we are not all the way there yet,and this has much more
to do with technology and the fact that we must be in the end times now.
Babylon is rising back up,just like Sodom & Gomorah.
These are the end times. I hope you'll become more aware of this.
 
ThinkerMan said:
Spanish and Italian are basically identical. English and Chinese couldn't be more different. If God confused and created all languages, one would expect that each one would be exactly as different as any other.


:smt115
You were not there when all the languages were confused,but you
may want to look more deeper into it. It should be of no surprize that
the Spanish and The Italians have a long history together,yet to me
there is still a vast difference between the too,and no doubt these
differences were greater when they were first confused. I haven't met
many half Spanish half Italian people but I am sure they exist.
There should be more simularities in their languages by now if we are
to believe what you say is true,yet it cannot be.
Babylon is rising back up now so we should be seeing very soon all the
languages being able to understand one another in one common language
and it is beginning to happen now even.
Why did it take soooooo long?
Look where we are compared to just 50 and 100 years ago.
 
SyntaxVorlon said:
Living God, you mean Hallie Sallassie?

:wink: No,I mean the living God who knows all about you,and
who made all the people,and their races,languages,and every living
being on earth. The Great I Am whom you think you have enough
intelligence to understand and try to judge with your limited human
brain.
 
ThinkerMan said:
Also,languages didn't just get here over night either,and
for sure not so many of them just sprung up out of no where.

Isn't that exactly what the bible says happens? That after Babel God instantly confused the langauges?

:smt035 Yes,and it says who caused it to happen unlike TOE.
God confused the languages of the people because they were doing
evil things against him.
The bible gives an explanation.
Of course,I realize that some of you think that was mean of God
because you all really like and love those who are against you.,right?
I don't think that confusing the languages was mean at all,it was kind
because I know many people out there who would kill another person
for sleeping around on them,or beat up someone who called them an
ugly name,while God saw men and women doing that all the time while
they rebelled against him.They lusted after one another,and even the
men lusted for each other,as if it wasn't bad enough how they were
lusting for so many women,they burned with lust for one another also.
They worshiped false gods/goddesses that they believed allowed orgies,
and sex with whom ever they pleased,like the false goddess Estarte' where they got Easter from. That is the worship of the sex organs,ect...
and fertility. So if God was mean,then man is beyond cruel,he is sick.
 
blueeyeliner said:
SyntaxVorlon said:
Living God, you mean Hallie Sallassie?

:wink: No,I mean the living God who knows all about you,and
who made all the people,and their races,languages,and every living
being on earth. The Great I Am whom you think you have enough
intelligence to understand and try to judge with your limited human
brain.
Jah lives.
 
:wink: Yes,Jesus lives ! Yeshua is Lord!
Syntax,
Even though you state to be an avid atheist,you have the spirit of
antichrist because you denie the Son of God,Jesus Christ as The Lord
and you don't believe that he was sent from God,or that he's the Son
of God. Whether or not you believe in God doesn't matter,you have
the antichrist spirit in you.
 
Actually I'm calling you a Rastafarian. I suppose it was presumptuous of me to expect you to get the joke, but I still find it funny either way.
 
Do mexicans realize yet that they may have come from
Cuba and Puerto Rico yet instead of Mexico because they speak basically
the same language? Mexican's are often told that they came from the
native American's and The Spanish. How true can that be for most of them?

A simple DNA test could tell them all they need to know about their heritage. What they "think" has no bearing on the accuracy of our ability to track their genetic ancestry.

Also, you specifically asked me how divergent evolution works. Here, you are talking a bit more about convergent evolution of two cultures.

If you don't know the differences between the two, you really shouldn't be involved in a discussion of them.

We all make mistakes,but I cannot see how one would
lose faith in God and then turn around and believe in evolution.

I've found evolution a correct explanation(while a Christian) ever since I was old enough to read and study, probably since I was 8 or 9. The same way I learned my times tables were correct.

I did not "turn around". Evolution is certainly no crutch.

What bonus do you think I expect out of believing in evolution?

What reward after I die? Evolution doesn't promise heaven or hell, it simply explains the world around us as accurately as we are able at this point.

I am an intellectually curious person, that is why I read about history and archeology, biology and evolution. It is simply to learn, not for any other reason. I don't expect any reward or punishment after I die for learning as much as I can about the subject....I simply will be happy with a full life.

You are trying to force evolution to make sense when it clearly doesn't,
and trying to make it make sense in how we got our races and language
is too off the wall for me.

The theory of evolution is beautiful in its simplicity. It is like saying algebra is too off the wall.

Honestly blue, how well do you know chemistry, calculus, biology, physics, etc? Without these basic tools, I agree it would be difficult to "get" evolution.

There should be more simularities in their languages by now if we are
to believe what you say is true,yet it cannot be.

No, what I said was true is that they should be highly different, if God confused them. They are not.

BTW, the reason why they are similar is because they both EVOLVED from Latin. As did French. Similarly, the multitude of Native American Languages can be traced to a handful of language families.
 
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