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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
Looking for........
- Thread starter Cornelius
- Start date
Vic C.
Member
Pastors should be teachers; they are called to feed the ekklesia. This is why they are coupled with teachers and teaching in the Bible and specifically Eph. 4:11. There are some pastors who take on leading roles, but this should be left to the elders, deacons, bishops, etc. (whatever you want to call them ;) )Cornelius said:
Just like in school, where you have teachers and you have principles.
Spiffy said:
Thanks Spiffy, I should have added I am only looking for New Testament scriptures. You have provided one. Thank you. This scripture mentions pastors but not that they are the head of the church. I am looking for more specific scriptures.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
OK< so we have one scripture now that mentions that there are indeed a thing called a pastor
Any more ?
C
Vic C. said:Pastors should be teachers; they are called to feed the ekklesia. This is why they are coupled with teachers and teaching in the Bible and specifically Eph. 4:11. There are some pastors who take on leading roles, but this should be left to the elders, deacons, bishops, etc. (whatever you want to call them ;) )Cornelius said:
Just like in school, where you have teachers and you have principles.
Thanks Vic C but I am really looking for scripture here. You can just post the scripture, I would not ask for more.
I see "teachers" mentioned in Eph 4:11 so I take it that pastors are something separate,(they are not mentioned as teachers, they are mentioned as pastors ) because in the same verse the other members of the fivefold ministry is also mentioned separately.
If I say a pastor is a teacher, then is the teacher a pastor too. And would that make the evangelist a pastor , apostle, or are they mentioned as five separate ministries ?
So , I have to see the scriptures.............
C
Vic C.
Member
Spiffy already did post the verses. All I did was elaborate.Cornelius said:
Not really. That's not a fair generalization. "All HDTV is digital tv, but not all digital tv is HDTV". In other words, all pastors are teachers but not all teachers are pastors. That's just sound reasoning.
I'd say no, but I don't adhere to a five fold ministry today as it's laid out in the first century.
Cornelius, I really don't know what you are looking for. We both seem to agree pastors are not called to be the leaders. I believe their highest calling is teaching and preaching. I do know you know scripture and you must have known about Eph. 4:11. So, what is it you are looking for?
Vic C. said:Pastors should be teachers; they are called to feed the ekklesia. This is why they are coupled with teachers and teaching in the Bible and specifically Eph. 4:11. There are some pastors who take on leading roles, but this should be left to the elders, deacons, bishops, etc. (whatever you want to call them ;) )Cornelius said:
Just like in school, where you have teachers and you have principles.
1 Timothy 5:17 "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor"
Acts 14:23 "Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church..."
I'd say no, but I don't adhere to a five fold ministry today as it's laid out in the first century.Vic C. said:
Cornelius, I really don't know what you are looking for. We both seem to agree pastors are not called to be the leaders. I believe their highest calling is teaching and preaching. I do know you know scripture and you must have known about Eph. 4:11. So, what is it you are looking for?
[/quote:1rkgq7rx]I wanted to show that we only have ONE scripture in the Bible that refers to a pastor.
OK, you and I agree that they are not called to be leaders. But we both know that the church has placed pastors in leadeship.
I must respectfully disagree that they are teachers by default.
The are called :G4166
Àοιμήν
poimēn
poy-mane'
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.
Now that would be the person who looks after you, if you were part of the flock. He comes around to your house, he sees that your needs are met, he is the shepherd (not teacher)
Here is the teacher:
διδάÃκαλοÂ
didaskalos
did-as'-kal-os
From G1321; an instructor (generally or specifically): - doctor, master, teacher.
So , they guy who looks after the flock's needs, he is the pastor. The guy who has his nose in the Bible and teaches those , who the shepherd looks after, he is the teacher.
Can a pastor teach. Some might be able to, but in general, we see in the Bible that the apostles were the guys who carries more than one anointing.
C
Spiffy said:Vic C. said:Pastors should be teachers; they are called to feed the ekklesia. This is why they are coupled with teachers and teaching in the Bible and specifically Eph. 4:11. There are some pastors who take on leading roles, but this should be left to the elders, deacons, bishops, etc. (whatever you want to call them ;) )Cornelius said:
Just like in school, where you have teachers and you have principles.
1 Timothy 5:17 "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor"
Acts 14:23 "Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church..."
Ah, thank you Spiffy. Now here it seems that we are looking at people who are suppose to "direct the affairs of the church" They are not all teaching (although some elders are the people who will also make up the fivefold ministry) Some of these might be pastors, some are evangelists, some are prophets, some teachers and then some apostles.Some are just elders.
Here is what an apostle looks like. You will know you have found one, if you see the following person:
apostolos
ap-os'-tol-os
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostleâ€Â), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.
Vic C.
Member
Ok, my misunderstanding. Your first two posts led me to believe you were out to disprove they are to be leaders. I guess it was your wording. If by church you mean, the Body or "ekklesia" than I agree; they are shepherds. If by church you mean leading the governing or clerical aspects of the church (building) then I still disagree.Cornelius said:
Note that I never said teaching is their duty by default. I say it is one of their gifts and not all can teach. That I will admit. I won't agree that they are not to be called as teachers, but since you are not considering OT scriptures, this is a moot point.If I remember correctly, our views on apostles and prophets in today's congregations differ. They were the foundation of the early ekklesia. The foundation has been built and is complete; it is now the body which is being built up.
Vic C. said:Ok, my misunderstanding. Your first two posts led me to believe you were out to disprove they are to be leaders. I guess it was your wording. If by church you mean, the Body or "ekklesia" than I agree; they are shepherds. If by church you mean leading the governing or clerical aspects of the church (building) then I still disagree.Cornelius said:
If I remember correctly, our views on apostles and prophets in today's congregations differ. They were the foundation of the early ekklesia. The foundation has been built and is complete; it is now the body which is being built up.
Hi Vic,
I am talking about ekklesia. Always ekkelsia LOL When the buildings fall, then the church will still stand.
Yes, we disagree about the fivefold ministry, but we know that God says, there will come a time, when we will all agree. Untill then, we are still in disagreement .
Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith,
Interesting Bible fact: God is again doing a calling out.Another ekklēsia. This time it is spoken to the church within the "church" Its a call to the people of God to leave the churches who are partaking of "Babylon" (The world system) Churches which are run by the Nicolaitan error (One guy ruling over the many) for example : where there is a board of directors, where its about money. Where God's order in leadership is ignored and where men have replaced it with something that looks more like a worldly system. In fact, most churches today fall under this description. God is calling his elect out of the worldly church.......into the wilderness.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
destiny
Member
I blogged this a couple of years ago...
2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
When my family and I left organized religion we had no clue that thousands of others were doing the same thing, all we knew was God had called us out.
The reason for coming out is as important as the act itself; I didn't realize how important until I started noticing that being out of church had been turned into a 'movement', complete with it's own elitists and hierarchy.
Any time a people stay camped out on an event instead of moving on into the progressive will of God they become destined for the ditch, and I began to notice that a lot of the ones who had built fellowships around 'coming out' had become proud boastful and biting toward the organized churches. This became the core basis for their fellowship instead of wanting to preserve the pure words of God and fellowship around freedom in Him. It was a form of idolatry.
This got me to noticing the importance of why people had come out.
What I saw happening was a lot of these people didn't care about the things of God or His word, they mostly cared about how organization had prevented them from functioning in their giftings. They 'only' cared about the perverse structure of the organized church and how it affected 'people' moreso than the weightier things that grieved God.
What I saw happening was a counterfeit movement taking shape, a movement that held Gods word and obedience to Him in low regard, yet moreso favored 'human rights'.
I believe, 'come out of her' means apostate organized religion, but I also believe it means come away from the apostate spirit that not only drives a lot of the organized churches, but also drives an apostate people who are also outside those organizations for the wrong reasons. I keep saying, 'for every move of God satan has a counterfeit', so don't be naive enough to think he hasn't counterfeited the coming out of His true remnant with masses of disgruntled apostates.
Babylon means more than one thing, it is a spirit that drives a mentality and you will find this spirit everywhere, not just on the 'inside' of an organization
Too many are looking at one aspect of babylon when we need to be checking out the true core values of all who are claiming to be our brothers and sisters in Christ.
2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
When my family and I left organized religion we had no clue that thousands of others were doing the same thing, all we knew was God had called us out.
The reason for coming out is as important as the act itself; I didn't realize how important until I started noticing that being out of church had been turned into a 'movement', complete with it's own elitists and hierarchy.
Any time a people stay camped out on an event instead of moving on into the progressive will of God they become destined for the ditch, and I began to notice that a lot of the ones who had built fellowships around 'coming out' had become proud boastful and biting toward the organized churches. This became the core basis for their fellowship instead of wanting to preserve the pure words of God and fellowship around freedom in Him. It was a form of idolatry.
This got me to noticing the importance of why people had come out.
What I saw happening was a lot of these people didn't care about the things of God or His word, they mostly cared about how organization had prevented them from functioning in their giftings. They 'only' cared about the perverse structure of the organized church and how it affected 'people' moreso than the weightier things that grieved God.
What I saw happening was a counterfeit movement taking shape, a movement that held Gods word and obedience to Him in low regard, yet moreso favored 'human rights'.
I believe, 'come out of her' means apostate organized religion, but I also believe it means come away from the apostate spirit that not only drives a lot of the organized churches, but also drives an apostate people who are also outside those organizations for the wrong reasons. I keep saying, 'for every move of God satan has a counterfeit', so don't be naive enough to think he hasn't counterfeited the coming out of His true remnant with masses of disgruntled apostates.
Babylon means more than one thing, it is a spirit that drives a mentality and you will find this spirit everywhere, not just on the 'inside' of an organization
Too many are looking at one aspect of babylon when we need to be checking out the true core values of all who are claiming to be our brothers and sisters in Christ.
You just cannot imagine how much I agree with you.
Amen, and amen. Those leaving must not "form" anything again, nor must they point fingers (by name calling) to preachers and churches. We may teach about the correct system, but we cannot create a "us and them" mentality , because that is division AGAIN We must tread carefully , without judging people. God is sovereign and He is the one who ultimately allows us to see, or not to see. It took me 27 years of not seeing. I was stuck in the letter of the Bible, I believed all the things, which I now teach against. I thought at the time, I really understood the Bible. I did not, it was not my time to do so then. I felt, like many others feel today : A deep sense of lack and need, regarding God. I wanted HIM. I wanted TRUTH. But the church brought me something else during those years.
Once God brought me out, I started seeing things from a different perspective. I also saw how many who left, fell back into just another system. Like you mentioned in your post above.
Judging people will take away God's grace. Because judgment implies that I DID IT.(which of course is not true: GOD did it FOR me) We ultimately have nothing to do with knowing or not knowing. God is sovereign. We just "work" with Him. He shows, we follow.
I also agree, that we will at first see the counterfeit "coming out" (as we already are seeing in many ways) Many have "come out" in the past, slapped a label on themselves and started a new denomination. I pray for the grace not to go there again.(We are also seeing the counterfeit revival out there, before the real one, that is coming )
But I truly believe that this is the last "calling out"
First God called Israel out of Egypt
Then God called his people out of Israel
Now God is calling His people out of the apostate church.
History is repeating:
Ecc 1:9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Amen, and amen. Those leaving must not "form" anything again, nor must they point fingers (by name calling) to preachers and churches. We may teach about the correct system, but we cannot create a "us and them" mentality , because that is division AGAIN We must tread carefully , without judging people. God is sovereign and He is the one who ultimately allows us to see, or not to see. It took me 27 years of not seeing. I was stuck in the letter of the Bible, I believed all the things, which I now teach against. I thought at the time, I really understood the Bible. I did not, it was not my time to do so then. I felt, like many others feel today : A deep sense of lack and need, regarding God. I wanted HIM. I wanted TRUTH. But the church brought me something else during those years.
Once God brought me out, I started seeing things from a different perspective. I also saw how many who left, fell back into just another system. Like you mentioned in your post above.
Judging people will take away God's grace. Because judgment implies that I DID IT.(which of course is not true: GOD did it FOR me) We ultimately have nothing to do with knowing or not knowing. God is sovereign. We just "work" with Him. He shows, we follow.
I also agree, that we will at first see the counterfeit "coming out" (as we already are seeing in many ways) Many have "come out" in the past, slapped a label on themselves and started a new denomination. I pray for the grace not to go there again.(We are also seeing the counterfeit revival out there, before the real one, that is coming )
But I truly believe that this is the last "calling out"
First God called Israel out of Egypt
Then God called his people out of Israel
Now God is calling His people out of the apostate church.
History is repeating:
Ecc 1:9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Vic C.
Member
I guess I can relate to that.
Also understand that doctrines in and of themselves, do not save. Jesus saves. A child with a limited knowledge of the Bible, but who was taught the most essential of the core beliefs can tell you that... Jesus saves.
Striving for "correct" interpretations and doctrines is Man's way of saying, Look Lord, I got it right! The bottom line is The Lord saves who He chooses and when. It doesn't matter if your IQ is 16 or 160.
For all those who step out and claim to have right doctrine and teach it, much will be expected of them.
Also understand that doctrines in and of themselves, do not save. Jesus saves. A child with a limited knowledge of the Bible, but who was taught the most essential of the core beliefs can tell you that... Jesus saves.
Striving for "correct" interpretations and doctrines is Man's way of saying, Look Lord, I got it right! The bottom line is The Lord saves who He chooses and when. It doesn't matter if your IQ is 16 or 160.
For all those who step out and claim to have right doctrine and teach it, much will be expected of them.
destiny
Member
I agree with you Vic, and Cornelious.
The thing that inspired my writing that wasn't incorrect nonessential doctrine (although there were universalists involved) but moreso a perversion of the character and nature of God. I joined a forum that was made for people who were supposedly "called out" (my stupid mistake), yet the reason a lot of them were out of the institutional church was because they didn't want to hear the truth.
The arrogance was overwhelming. I found myself in constant opposition with them, and the ones who were pretty sound and out for the right reasons, such as apostasy, could fellowship with the rest because they had "being out" in common. It wasn't centered around Jesus, but rather an event.
I believe God began to shake it because finally there was a big division (the dividing sword of Jesus) among those who truly believed and those who were false Christians. Long story short, a lot of us were banned for not going along with the perverted versions of Jesus.
After that I was no longer quite as naive about the ones who have truly been called out, versus those who are out because they hate uncompromised preaching and Jesus in general. I am a pretty stupid sheep unless God teaches me something, usually through the school of hard knocks.
Luk 17:20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
Luk 17:21 neither will they say, 'Look here!' or 'Look, there it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is among you."
The Kingdom of God doesn't come by observation of buildings and geographical locations .. He is within His people where ever they happen to be at any given time.
The thing that inspired my writing that wasn't incorrect nonessential doctrine (although there were universalists involved) but moreso a perversion of the character and nature of God. I joined a forum that was made for people who were supposedly "called out" (my stupid mistake), yet the reason a lot of them were out of the institutional church was because they didn't want to hear the truth.
The arrogance was overwhelming. I found myself in constant opposition with them, and the ones who were pretty sound and out for the right reasons, such as apostasy, could fellowship with the rest because they had "being out" in common. It wasn't centered around Jesus, but rather an event.
I believe God began to shake it because finally there was a big division (the dividing sword of Jesus) among those who truly believed and those who were false Christians. Long story short, a lot of us were banned for not going along with the perverted versions of Jesus.
After that I was no longer quite as naive about the ones who have truly been called out, versus those who are out because they hate uncompromised preaching and Jesus in general. I am a pretty stupid sheep unless God teaches me something, usually through the school of hard knocks.
Luk 17:20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
Luk 17:21 neither will they say, 'Look here!' or 'Look, there it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is among you."
The Kingdom of God doesn't come by observation of buildings and geographical locations .. He is within His people where ever they happen to be at any given time.
About 5 years ago, my husband and I started questioning the church and the way traditional church is set up. At that time our struggles centered around issues such as tithing, the NT did not teach it, but why did the church? Not that we do not give, but why give all our money to the church when there are so many others in need. Why were we only serving one another and not people outside of the church? Why are we "stuck" in these 4 walls? Why was it everyone looked to our pastor for everything (teaching, shepherding, direction)? Why is the church not set-up like it was instructed to in the NT? Why is it so different from that?
I argued with friends, the pastor, I was told this is just the way it is, but in my heart of hearts I knew something was wrong. Now 5 years later, we head back to a church, but we pray God would only allow us to hear the truth, we realize the service is but a "show", we know it's the "feel good religion", we know it's not right.
Now I see the church has been stifling us, we are not serving in our God given abilities. The church is not teaching the entire truth. We see those people who hold degrees in theology and trust God speaks to them more than He speaks to us (which is not true). Like I said in another thread, we have compromised our beliefs to suit those around us, we've "settled" into church-goers, instead of God seekers.
I argued with friends, the pastor, I was told this is just the way it is, but in my heart of hearts I knew something was wrong. Now 5 years later, we head back to a church, but we pray God would only allow us to hear the truth, we realize the service is but a "show", we know it's the "feel good religion", we know it's not right.
Now I see the church has been stifling us, we are not serving in our God given abilities. The church is not teaching the entire truth. We see those people who hold degrees in theology and trust God speaks to them more than He speaks to us (which is not true). Like I said in another thread, we have compromised our beliefs to suit those around us, we've "settled" into church-goers, instead of God seekers.
Vic C.
Member
Spiffy,
That's one of the things I admire about our So. Baptist Congregation. We are grass roots and pretty much know where upstream our givings are going. The SBC does great ministry and missionary work, so I know our $$ are going to the right needs. I also know of the impact it has on a pastor that is called or consulted on just about every manner. It can burn them out.
I fully understand that other denominations and non denominations are as accountable for their spending as the SBC. :gah
That's one of the things I admire about our So. Baptist Congregation. We are grass roots and pretty much know where upstream our givings are going. The SBC does great ministry and missionary work, so I know our $$ are going to the right needs. I also know of the impact it has on a pastor that is called or consulted on just about every manner. It can burn them out.
I fully understand that other denominations and non denominations are as accountable for their spending as the SBC. :gah