stovebolts
Member
CC said:
I believe thats, "Lay on, Macduff" :wink:
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Bible Study Lords Supper
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I believe thats, "Lay on, Macduff" :wink:
C
Catholic Crusader
Guest
StoveBolts said:
Really? Don't you hate it when you find out something you have always said is wrong? It reminds me of the saying "I could care or less". Thats how most people say it. But, it is actually "I could'nt care less." The first way makes no sense.
Anyway, lay on, MacDuff.
stovebolts
Member
For the integrity of the Bible Study Forum, I have added a thread in the Apologetics forum on Ignatius where we can let it run it's course.
Ignatius on the Eucharist
Ignatius on the Eucharist
C
Catholic Crusader
Guest
Uh oh. Its on and crackin' now.StoveBolts said:
sheshisown
Member
Hi Jeff and bible studiers~
Now I have studied the old testiment covenant sacrifice, especially in the covenant God established with Abraham. The one area of that covenant that blesses me in Christ is that it was only God who walked between the halved animal sacrifices, the smoking furnace (our God is a consuming fire, eh?) Therefore, just as the sacrifice of Christ is one sided in its work and glory~ so was the old testiment example. God is the same yesterday and forever! Huh?
There may be much more I'm sure I may glean by sitting by and listening in here, how the table is represented in communion is unknown to me. Hope you don't mind answering my questions. The only table in the old testiment I have studied was the table of King David~ the biblical example of Jesus our gracious King when he offered a place at his glorious table to the broken footed Mephibshef for all his life . (I know I spelled that incorrectly)
: sorry.
To me, the long cloths that draped the King's table hid his lame condition~ just as my King's table does for my own broken life. Oh lovely is the Lord! Yes? Okay, open eyes, waiting... bonnie
Now I have studied the old testiment covenant sacrifice, especially in the covenant God established with Abraham. The one area of that covenant that blesses me in Christ is that it was only God who walked between the halved animal sacrifices, the smoking furnace (our God is a consuming fire, eh?) Therefore, just as the sacrifice of Christ is one sided in its work and glory~ so was the old testiment example. God is the same yesterday and forever! Huh?
There may be much more I'm sure I may glean by sitting by and listening in here, how the table is represented in communion is unknown to me. Hope you don't mind answering my questions. The only table in the old testiment I have studied was the table of King David~ the biblical example of Jesus our gracious King when he offered a place at his glorious table to the broken footed Mephibshef for all his life . (I know I spelled that incorrectly)
: sorry. To me, the long cloths that draped the King's table hid his lame condition~ just as my King's table does for my own broken life. Oh lovely is the Lord! Yes? Okay, open eyes, waiting... bonnie
sheshisown
Member
Still waiting~ and hoping~ with expectancy~ and hopefully with patience~ Praise Jesus.
In Christ, bonnie
In Christ, bonnie
stovebolts
Member
Hi bonnie!
Great question! Most people only look at the promissory or sacrificial aspect of the covenant. As far as the covenant with Abram (Genesis 15), this is a great example where YHVH himself participates in the covenant. However, it was customary that after the covenant was “cutâ€Â, the pieces were not left on the ground to rot or be eaten by the wild beast, but rather, they became part of a covenantal meal which celebrated the covenant.
We see this celebrated covenant in several locations within the Old Testament. For example, in Genesis 31, we have the story of Jacob when he leaves the house of Laban. I’ll not recount the story, but rather, I’m prompting you to do a good read on this as I touch on a few points.
1. There was hostility between the two parties.
2. God intervenes with Laban not to harm Jacob.
3. Laban wishes to cut a covenant with Jacob.
4. Oaths and sacrifices were offered to enact the covenant.
5. The meal was celebrated to confirm the covenant.
Please notice this pattern, as it's a theme that reoccurs throughout scripture.
Another example is in Genesis 26 where Isaac and Abimelech cut a covenant and after the covenant is cut, we see them again at Table in celebration of the Covenant.
At this point, I would like you to notice that when a covenant is cut, its purpose is to bring those who are in opposition united in agreement through a promise. When a covenant is cut, the Alter is defined with the sober reality of what occurs to the one who breaks the covenant as well as the sacrifice that was made to fulfill the covenant. The Table however, is shaped by celebration that the two parties are in agreement.
As we skip forward to the Covenant YHVH makes with Israel, I’d like to post a snipit from a book that I’ve been studying called, Come to the Table, by John Mark Hicks. Please read Exodus 24 and then make note of the following.
A. 1. God invites Moses and the elders into his presence (Exodus 24:1-2)
2. The word of the Lord spoken and the people affirm the covenant (Exodus 24:3)
3. The words are written by Moses (Exodus 24:4a)
4. The sacrifices are offered (Exodus 24:4b-6)
B. The people affirm the covenant and the blood is sprinkled (Exodus 24:7b-8)
C. Moses and the elders eat and drink in the presence of God (Exodus 24:9-11)
Keep in mind that God is a Holy God, and cannot be approached by sinful people. (Exodus 33:20) Yet they communed with at Table via the Alter.
When we begin to look at the new Covenant in Christ, it is a much better covenant than that which was made with Isreal (Hebrews). Moses stated, Exodus 24:8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words. [Hebrews 9:20]
Christ stated, Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is shed for you.
The new Covenant has been cut through Jesus the Christ, and as children of the promise, we celebrate in the presence of Christ, just as the sacrifice afforded Israel to commune at the Table with YHVH.
Great question! Most people only look at the promissory or sacrificial aspect of the covenant. As far as the covenant with Abram (Genesis 15), this is a great example where YHVH himself participates in the covenant. However, it was customary that after the covenant was “cutâ€Â, the pieces were not left on the ground to rot or be eaten by the wild beast, but rather, they became part of a covenantal meal which celebrated the covenant.
We see this celebrated covenant in several locations within the Old Testament. For example, in Genesis 31, we have the story of Jacob when he leaves the house of Laban. I’ll not recount the story, but rather, I’m prompting you to do a good read on this as I touch on a few points.
1. There was hostility between the two parties.
2. God intervenes with Laban not to harm Jacob.
3. Laban wishes to cut a covenant with Jacob.
4. Oaths and sacrifices were offered to enact the covenant.
5. The meal was celebrated to confirm the covenant.
Please notice this pattern, as it's a theme that reoccurs throughout scripture.
Another example is in Genesis 26 where Isaac and Abimelech cut a covenant and after the covenant is cut, we see them again at Table in celebration of the Covenant.
At this point, I would like you to notice that when a covenant is cut, its purpose is to bring those who are in opposition united in agreement through a promise. When a covenant is cut, the Alter is defined with the sober reality of what occurs to the one who breaks the covenant as well as the sacrifice that was made to fulfill the covenant. The Table however, is shaped by celebration that the two parties are in agreement.
As we skip forward to the Covenant YHVH makes with Israel, I’d like to post a snipit from a book that I’ve been studying called, Come to the Table, by John Mark Hicks. Please read Exodus 24 and then make note of the following.
A. 1. God invites Moses and the elders into his presence (Exodus 24:1-2)
2. The word of the Lord spoken and the people affirm the covenant (Exodus 24:3)
3. The words are written by Moses (Exodus 24:4a)
4. The sacrifices are offered (Exodus 24:4b-6)
B. The people affirm the covenant and the blood is sprinkled (Exodus 24:7b-8)
C. Moses and the elders eat and drink in the presence of God (Exodus 24:9-11)
Keep in mind that God is a Holy God, and cannot be approached by sinful people. (Exodus 33:20) Yet they communed with at Table via the Alter.
When we begin to look at the new Covenant in Christ, it is a much better covenant than that which was made with Isreal (Hebrews). Moses stated, Exodus 24:8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words. [Hebrews 9:20]
Christ stated, Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is shed for you.
The new Covenant has been cut through Jesus the Christ, and as children of the promise, we celebrate in the presence of Christ, just as the sacrifice afforded Israel to commune at the Table with YHVH.
O
one_lost_coin
Guest
Sorry about the all caps the source I copied from formated it this way.
THE ALTAR IS A SYMBOL OF CHRIST HIMSELF. IT IS THE ALTAR THAT UNIFIES US AND BRINGS US AS ONE FAMILY IN CHRIST. FROM THE ALTAR, YOU AND I NOURISH OUR SOULS WITH THE EUCHARIST. WE ARE BAPTIZED AROUND THE ALTAR, WE ARE CONFIRMED, RECEIVE OUR COMMUNION; ORDAINED, MARRIED; ANOINTED AND BURIED. ALL OF OUR LIFE IS CONNECTED TO THE ALTAR, SYMBOL OF CHRIST. IN AN AUTHENTIC MARONITE CHURCH, THE ALTAR IS ALWAYS FACING EAST, THE SIDE OF SUNRISE AND LIGHT, AND THE SIDE FROM WHICH CHRIST WILL COME AT THE END OF TIME. THE ATTITUDE OF OUR MARONITE LITURGY IS THAT OF "READINESS" FOR THE COMING OF THE LORD. WE FACE EAST AS WISE VIRGINS CARRYING OUR LIGHTED LAMPS TO GO OUT AND GREET THE LORD WHEN HE COMES AGAIN IN GLORY. WE COME TO THE ALTAR TO PLACE OUR JOY AND HAPPINESS ON IT AND TO OBTAIN STRENGTH IN LIFE.
the whole article can be read http://www.usamaronite.org/events/results.cfm?nid=117
there is much more that can be said in exploring the Altar as a symbol of the Cross and the Empty Tomb.
THE ALTAR IS A SYMBOL OF CHRIST HIMSELF. IT IS THE ALTAR THAT UNIFIES US AND BRINGS US AS ONE FAMILY IN CHRIST. FROM THE ALTAR, YOU AND I NOURISH OUR SOULS WITH THE EUCHARIST. WE ARE BAPTIZED AROUND THE ALTAR, WE ARE CONFIRMED, RECEIVE OUR COMMUNION; ORDAINED, MARRIED; ANOINTED AND BURIED. ALL OF OUR LIFE IS CONNECTED TO THE ALTAR, SYMBOL OF CHRIST. IN AN AUTHENTIC MARONITE CHURCH, THE ALTAR IS ALWAYS FACING EAST, THE SIDE OF SUNRISE AND LIGHT, AND THE SIDE FROM WHICH CHRIST WILL COME AT THE END OF TIME. THE ATTITUDE OF OUR MARONITE LITURGY IS THAT OF "READINESS" FOR THE COMING OF THE LORD. WE FACE EAST AS WISE VIRGINS CARRYING OUR LIGHTED LAMPS TO GO OUT AND GREET THE LORD WHEN HE COMES AGAIN IN GLORY. WE COME TO THE ALTAR TO PLACE OUR JOY AND HAPPINESS ON IT AND TO OBTAIN STRENGTH IN LIFE.
the whole article can be read http://www.usamaronite.org/events/results.cfm?nid=117
there is much more that can be said in exploring the Altar as a symbol of the Cross and the Empty Tomb.
stovebolts
Member
one_lost_coin,
Please review and attempt to adhere with the Recommendations and Guidelines for an effective Bible Study. while posting in this forum.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=32617
Thank you.
Please review and attempt to adhere with the Recommendations and Guidelines for an effective Bible Study. while posting in this forum.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=32617
Thank you.
sheshisown
Member
Hi there Jeff~ :D
I looked at these scriptures for the shared meal = the table I think you were meaning in your post. The first example is beautiful in it's promise of God to Abram as you were saying many look at. Though I am afraid I did not see any place where the scripture tells us that Abram ate the sacrificed animals of this covenant that God made with him.
I know that some sacrifices were explicitly not to be eaten; so as many others do I also looked at the covenant itself as an example of the salvation covenant made for us by Jesus Christ's sacrifice; which is also not literally eaten, but commemorated and celebrated. Perhaps you can further show the scriptural communion meal here I am missing.
I see both the awesome serious matter of communion in examining my heart before the Lord, and the grace given to celebrate His wonderful victory! :smt049
There is an awesome truth written in this first covenant cutting in the OT, that it was made by God alone.
God, represented by the smoking oven and the burning torch, passed through the animal parts by Himself; as Abram watched, God showed this was a one-sided covenant. Abram never “signed†the covenant, because God “signed†it for both of them. So, the certainty of the covenant God makes with Abram (as with us in salvation) is based on who God is and what He has done, and not on who Abram is or what he does.
Since the covenant is instituted and kept by God’s “signature†this covenant cannot fail, because God cannot fail. :smt023
In another sense, the Father walked through the broken and bloody body of Jesus to confirm His covenant with us, and God signed the new covenant for all of us. We merely enter into the covenant by faith through choice; we don’t actually make the covenant with God. That's the best way I can understand it . . . :smt017
By entering into this contract with Abram, there is a sense in which God was saying, “If I don’t keep My word, let Me be torn asunder.†God was putting His Deity on the line as a confirmation of His promise to him. Just as He (in Christ) has laid down His deity thru incarnation and borne the sin of the world, that the believing may be saved. :-D
Now, with the example of Jacob and Laban making a covenant, theirs is a kind of line drawn in the sand, both parties agreeing not to pass over the monument into the others area in future. There is no celebration in keeping a truce really, since there is nothing of lasting virtue to it. The meal eaten between them is to ratify before their tribes this lasting division between them. It was the same with abimelech and Issac their peoples had fought over the water supply, and this is a settlement to divide it premanently between their people.
In ancient times a meal was shared with hands and bread, no utinsils were used. Therefore, a person would share the other's saliva mixed in the food, sort of like our double dipping rule now. It was thought that each person eating became a part of the other, which is why the Egyptians refused to eat with the Hebrews. They considered them too low for this shared communion. :smt019 These meals were contracts being cut to do business between desenting parties, no celebration is evident in my reading . . . :smt017 Maybe its me? :smt037
In the last example Moses is the only one who communes with God intimately, the elders remain afar off, though God called them to Himself. The people had refused to draw near in much earlier chapter because they feared the presence of God Almighty, saying in effect; You go and talk with God for us, Moses.
Moses and the elders eat the meal, but where are the words describing a celebration? Sorry, I am really missing it. I guess. :smt009 This is a bloody mess, blood sprinkled on the alter and on the people who had cleaned themselves up for this meeting. A pretty somber situation if you ask me. The blood was part of the covenant as it always is, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Our God as you said is Holy, and no matter how clean they were physically, they were a sinful people. Aren't we all? :smt045
Jeff~ how about pointing out perhaps other scriptures that detail the celebration part of a meal shared with God? Maybe in the feasts . . . then you can help us see the table of communion a little clearer perhaps. Certainly, our Lord desires this communion.
Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Gosh, if I'm missing your point~ sorry to be so dense, brother.
In the constant communion of Christ. :smt038 bonnie
I looked at these scriptures for the shared meal = the table I think you were meaning in your post. The first example is beautiful in it's promise of God to Abram as you were saying many look at. Though I am afraid I did not see any place where the scripture tells us that Abram ate the sacrificed animals of this covenant that God made with him.
I know that some sacrifices were explicitly not to be eaten; so as many others do I also looked at the covenant itself as an example of the salvation covenant made for us by Jesus Christ's sacrifice; which is also not literally eaten, but commemorated and celebrated. Perhaps you can further show the scriptural communion meal here I am missing.
I see both the awesome serious matter of communion in examining my heart before the Lord, and the grace given to celebrate His wonderful victory! :smt049
There is an awesome truth written in this first covenant cutting in the OT, that it was made by God alone.
God, represented by the smoking oven and the burning torch, passed through the animal parts by Himself; as Abram watched, God showed this was a one-sided covenant. Abram never “signed†the covenant, because God “signed†it for both of them. So, the certainty of the covenant God makes with Abram (as with us in salvation) is based on who God is and what He has done, and not on who Abram is or what he does.
Since the covenant is instituted and kept by God’s “signature†this covenant cannot fail, because God cannot fail. :smt023
In another sense, the Father walked through the broken and bloody body of Jesus to confirm His covenant with us, and God signed the new covenant for all of us. We merely enter into the covenant by faith through choice; we don’t actually make the covenant with God. That's the best way I can understand it . . . :smt017
By entering into this contract with Abram, there is a sense in which God was saying, “If I don’t keep My word, let Me be torn asunder.†God was putting His Deity on the line as a confirmation of His promise to him. Just as He (in Christ) has laid down His deity thru incarnation and borne the sin of the world, that the believing may be saved. :-D
Now, with the example of Jacob and Laban making a covenant, theirs is a kind of line drawn in the sand, both parties agreeing not to pass over the monument into the others area in future. There is no celebration in keeping a truce really, since there is nothing of lasting virtue to it. The meal eaten between them is to ratify before their tribes this lasting division between them. It was the same with abimelech and Issac their peoples had fought over the water supply, and this is a settlement to divide it premanently between their people.
In ancient times a meal was shared with hands and bread, no utinsils were used. Therefore, a person would share the other's saliva mixed in the food, sort of like our double dipping rule now. It was thought that each person eating became a part of the other, which is why the Egyptians refused to eat with the Hebrews. They considered them too low for this shared communion. :smt019 These meals were contracts being cut to do business between desenting parties, no celebration is evident in my reading . . . :smt017 Maybe its me? :smt037
In the last example Moses is the only one who communes with God intimately, the elders remain afar off, though God called them to Himself. The people had refused to draw near in much earlier chapter because they feared the presence of God Almighty, saying in effect; You go and talk with God for us, Moses.
Moses and the elders eat the meal, but where are the words describing a celebration? Sorry, I am really missing it. I guess. :smt009 This is a bloody mess, blood sprinkled on the alter and on the people who had cleaned themselves up for this meeting. A pretty somber situation if you ask me. The blood was part of the covenant as it always is, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Our God as you said is Holy, and no matter how clean they were physically, they were a sinful people. Aren't we all? :smt045
Jeff~ how about pointing out perhaps other scriptures that detail the celebration part of a meal shared with God? Maybe in the feasts . . . then you can help us see the table of communion a little clearer perhaps. Certainly, our Lord desires this communion.
Rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Gosh, if I'm missing your point~ sorry to be so dense, brother.
In the constant communion of Christ. :smt038 bonnie
stovebolts
Member
Hi bonnie! I hope I can address your questions!
I agree in that scripture is not implicit to what occurred with the sacrifice after the covenant was cut in the Example given (Genesis 15). However, we do know much about the culture and given the biblical affirmation of covenantal meals, along with the historical cultural evidence, and it’s most likely that Abram and his people enjoyed a meal together in celebration with the covenant YHVH cut with Abram. It is highly unlikely that the meat was left out for the birds to pick at since that was not the practice.
Correct. Check out this site on the matter of sacrifices and how they were used.
http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm
Notice in Exodus 24 and 29 how YHVH uses the offerings as a means to commune with Israel. (Exodus 29:44-45 and as previously mentioned Exodus 24:9-11)
If we look at the story of Hannah, we see that she brings three bulls to the Temple to dedicate Samuel to YHVH (1 Samuel 1). Now then, it’s safe to say that one was used as a burnt offering, the other for a sin offering and the third for the peace offering. But she also brought flour for the meal offering and wine for the drink offering. If a bull weighs around 800 to a thousand pounds, well then, that’s one big party since the meal would have been celebrated in fellowship with YHVH and the community. Keep in mind here, that all three bulls would have been brought to the Alter in accordance with the Levitical law for slaughter, which is a sober reality as one reflects on the covenant in dedication to a present reality which are later celebrated in God’s presence at Table. (Read 1 Samuel 2 for Hanna’s response)
For measure I’ll repeat. The Alter grounds the Table. Without the Alter, there would be no fellowship with YHVH at Table. It is YHVH’s desire to fellowship with His people, and this is the means he used for various reasons that are beyond the scope of this discussion.
A covenant could only be made with two or more parties. Part of the tradition of cutting a covenant was walking through the middle of the animals as a sobering reality of what would occur if you broke your end of the agreement. It was a serious matter. As shown in previous scripture posted, a celebration meal was in order to seal the deal per se. In this case, God knew that Abram (or humanity for that matter) could not keep his end (take Ishmael as an example) and thus, took the burden of the promise upon him self and thus provides Abram with Isaac. The beauty of this covenant is that the covenant is universal in scope. YHVH blesses Abram so that Abram can be a blessing to all nations which is one reason why Abraham’s faith is so central to scripture IMHO.
With the fall of humanity, there has been a separation of true fellowship with YHVH since the Garden and yes, hell is a present reality both here and now on earth, and in the life to come. As far as the Covenant between Jacob and Laban, aside from being like an insurance policy, the cutting of the covenant really show’s part of it’s depth. Imagine, each walking between the animals realizing that if either party didn’t keep the agreement, he would end up like the animal they walked through. Cutting a covenant was a serious matter, which is why it was celebrated afterwards at Table. Notice how it ends, in verse 54-55. They share the meal together in fellowship and afterwards, Laban blesses his son’s and daughters before departing.
As far as Issac and Abimelech, they weren’t strangers toward one another and both were great leaders of their respective people. . Remember, Abimelech stated that Isaac had become more powerful than he, and Isaac left the land Abimelech resided in and went to Gerar. Both realized the importance of keeping peace. Now then, Isaac could have battled for the wells and probably won the battles, but he chose to move on and keep peace. Isaac goes on later to say that Abimelech “hated†him, yet Isaac, who is more powerful than Abimelech holds a feast and celebrates with Abimelech (and his people).
YHVH is more powerful than us and has set the Rainbow in the sky as an everlasting covenant that he will never flood the entire world again. It is humanity that drives YHVH out, and it is YHVH that is willing to seek peace and fellowship.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 1&letter=P
This is true, but here’s what we read in Exodus 29.
Exodus 29:42-45 This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD: where I will meet you, to speak there unto you.And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by my glory. And I will sanctify the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office. And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
bonnie said:
I agree in that scripture is not implicit to what occurred with the sacrifice after the covenant was cut in the Example given (Genesis 15). However, we do know much about the culture and given the biblical affirmation of covenantal meals, along with the historical cultural evidence, and it’s most likely that Abram and his people enjoyed a meal together in celebration with the covenant YHVH cut with Abram. It is highly unlikely that the meat was left out for the birds to pick at since that was not the practice.
bonnie said:
Correct. Check out this site on the matter of sacrifices and how they were used.
http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm
Notice in Exodus 24 and 29 how YHVH uses the offerings as a means to commune with Israel. (Exodus 29:44-45 and as previously mentioned Exodus 24:9-11)
If we look at the story of Hannah, we see that she brings three bulls to the Temple to dedicate Samuel to YHVH (1 Samuel 1). Now then, it’s safe to say that one was used as a burnt offering, the other for a sin offering and the third for the peace offering. But she also brought flour for the meal offering and wine for the drink offering. If a bull weighs around 800 to a thousand pounds, well then, that’s one big party since the meal would have been celebrated in fellowship with YHVH and the community. Keep in mind here, that all three bulls would have been brought to the Alter in accordance with the Levitical law for slaughter, which is a sober reality as one reflects on the covenant in dedication to a present reality which are later celebrated in God’s presence at Table. (Read 1 Samuel 2 for Hanna’s response)
For measure I’ll repeat. The Alter grounds the Table. Without the Alter, there would be no fellowship with YHVH at Table. It is YHVH’s desire to fellowship with His people, and this is the means he used for various reasons that are beyond the scope of this discussion.
bonnie said:
A covenant could only be made with two or more parties. Part of the tradition of cutting a covenant was walking through the middle of the animals as a sobering reality of what would occur if you broke your end of the agreement. It was a serious matter. As shown in previous scripture posted, a celebration meal was in order to seal the deal per se. In this case, God knew that Abram (or humanity for that matter) could not keep his end (take Ishmael as an example) and thus, took the burden of the promise upon him self and thus provides Abram with Isaac. The beauty of this covenant is that the covenant is universal in scope. YHVH blesses Abram so that Abram can be a blessing to all nations which is one reason why Abraham’s faith is so central to scripture IMHO.
Amen!!bonnie said:
bonnie said:
With the fall of humanity, there has been a separation of true fellowship with YHVH since the Garden and yes, hell is a present reality both here and now on earth, and in the life to come. As far as the Covenant between Jacob and Laban, aside from being like an insurance policy, the cutting of the covenant really show’s part of it’s depth. Imagine, each walking between the animals realizing that if either party didn’t keep the agreement, he would end up like the animal they walked through. Cutting a covenant was a serious matter, which is why it was celebrated afterwards at Table. Notice how it ends, in verse 54-55. They share the meal together in fellowship and afterwards, Laban blesses his son’s and daughters before departing.
As far as Issac and Abimelech, they weren’t strangers toward one another and both were great leaders of their respective people. . Remember, Abimelech stated that Isaac had become more powerful than he, and Isaac left the land Abimelech resided in and went to Gerar. Both realized the importance of keeping peace. Now then, Isaac could have battled for the wells and probably won the battles, but he chose to move on and keep peace. Isaac goes on later to say that Abimelech “hated†him, yet Isaac, who is more powerful than Abimelech holds a feast and celebrates with Abimelech (and his people).
YHVH is more powerful than us and has set the Rainbow in the sky as an everlasting covenant that he will never flood the entire world again. It is humanity that drives YHVH out, and it is YHVH that is willing to seek peace and fellowship.
The meal they shared would have been considered a Covenantal peace offering. Check this out and let me know what you conclude.bonnie said:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 1&letter=P
bonnie said:
This is true, but here’s what we read in Exodus 29.
Exodus 29:42-45 This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD: where I will meet you, to speak there unto you.And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by my glory. And I will sanctify the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office. And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
We know that Jesus is the Lamb of God, and that the wine represents His blood the blood of the covenant...
Another to look at Passover or Lord's supper, is as a wedding anniversary.
The first marriage supper of the Lamb....Jesus rose and celebrated the wedding feast (Unleavened Bread last 7 days like a Bilbical wedding) with the rest of the many saints who resurrected with Him.
''After two days He will revive us (resurrect) on the third day raise us up so that we may live in His sight''
Now that we saw the physical body of Christ rise after two physical days, we now also see the prophetic body of Christ being raised and Jesus returns with the saints.... After two prophetic days...
The next 7 years (back to the resurrection of the twelve tribes) many will discern Jesus Christ walk the earth, angles will discern Him and the children of the resurrection will discern Him by the power of the Holy Spirit so no one may be deceived.
Behold I have told you so beforehand...I know Trumpets and Atonement have been fulfilled in Heaven (Rev. 5) the lamb slain in Heaven (the blood of the calf and lamb sprinkled on the tabernalce and in front of it).
Jesus who overcame physical death and Satan on earth had to overcome Satan and spiritual death and kick Satan out of Heaven...
Just like when Salvation came to earth we herd a voice in the wilderness.
Now John hears a voice in Heaven:
Rev: 12
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.â€Â
So when Jesus fulfills trumpet and Atonement He will be revealed in the next ''week'' to the resurrected saints who also walk the earth NOW.
The time of the gentiles is fulfilled the day of the Lord has begun... Ask God to give you a sign, don't believe me but ask God.
Another to look at Passover or Lord's supper, is as a wedding anniversary.
The first marriage supper of the Lamb....Jesus rose and celebrated the wedding feast (Unleavened Bread last 7 days like a Bilbical wedding) with the rest of the many saints who resurrected with Him.
''After two days He will revive us (resurrect) on the third day raise us up so that we may live in His sight''
Now that we saw the physical body of Christ rise after two physical days, we now also see the prophetic body of Christ being raised and Jesus returns with the saints.... After two prophetic days...
The next 7 years (back to the resurrection of the twelve tribes) many will discern Jesus Christ walk the earth, angles will discern Him and the children of the resurrection will discern Him by the power of the Holy Spirit so no one may be deceived.
Behold I have told you so beforehand...I know Trumpets and Atonement have been fulfilled in Heaven (Rev. 5) the lamb slain in Heaven (the blood of the calf and lamb sprinkled on the tabernalce and in front of it).
Jesus who overcame physical death and Satan on earth had to overcome Satan and spiritual death and kick Satan out of Heaven...
Just like when Salvation came to earth we herd a voice in the wilderness.
Now John hears a voice in Heaven:
Rev: 12
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.â€Â
So when Jesus fulfills trumpet and Atonement He will be revealed in the next ''week'' to the resurrected saints who also walk the earth NOW.
The time of the gentiles is fulfilled the day of the Lord has begun... Ask God to give you a sign, don't believe me but ask God.
The natural often foreshadows the spiritual, the Lord's supper is such an event...
Luke 22:14-16
14 When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve[a] apostles with Him. 15 Then He said to them, “With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.†''it'' refers to the passover that Jesus had to fulfill in Heaven, the spiritual passover, spiritual death... Why? Because the saints were sealed until the day of redemption, by fulfilling trumpets and atonement in His spirit (angel of the Lord) He resurrects the saouls fo the saints.
Just like through His physical death and resurrection the OT saints resurrected with Him.
What Jesus fulfilled in this world He now had to fulfill in Heaven... ''My Kingdom is not of this world''
Luke 19
11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately. 12 Therefore He said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Do business till I come... We must watch.
15 “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom,
27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’â€Â
2000 years ago Jesus came to save which was lost, now Jesus returns to judge....Who can withstand the wrath of the Lamb? That Lamb knows kung fu man! :D
Luke 22:14-16
14 When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve[a] apostles with Him. 15 Then He said to them, “With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.†''it'' refers to the passover that Jesus had to fulfill in Heaven, the spiritual passover, spiritual death... Why? Because the saints were sealed until the day of redemption, by fulfilling trumpets and atonement in His spirit (angel of the Lord) He resurrects the saouls fo the saints.
Just like through His physical death and resurrection the OT saints resurrected with Him.
What Jesus fulfilled in this world He now had to fulfill in Heaven... ''My Kingdom is not of this world''
Luke 19
11 Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately. 12 Therefore He said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Do business till I come... We must watch.
15 “And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom,
27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.’â€Â
2000 years ago Jesus came to save which was lost, now Jesus returns to judge....Who can withstand the wrath of the Lamb? That Lamb knows kung fu man! :D
sheshisown
Member
Hey Jeff~
It is so odd that Lovely needed that bit from Craig, since it is only now that I have been reading thru these scriptures, part of my daily BS. Anyway, I missed your imput to my questions before, and the thread got buried so I forgot about. But reading through your answers now when I am sorting it out the best I can just blessed me SO MUCH!
Let me go over what I think I understand better, and if you don't mind add a few more questions?
I really think you are correct when you say that Abraham and his family, tribe, all sat down and enjoyed that bar-b-que! There is something very interesting in the way the Lord seems to really enjoy the smell of roasting MEAT... Maybe it's because our flesh needs to be purified in fire, eh?
Besides, Abraham was very didligent to keep the vutures OFF the sacrifice before God cut the covenant with him, I doubt if he let them eat it afterwards. It was probably so much more precious since God's smoking furnace had cooked it!
Oh Yeah, YHVH LIKES BAR-B-QUE... That's about 2400-3200 pounds of bull baloney! You know, I have always been so wound up with the emotional self control that Hannah was learning, and her giving of her son BACK to God, that I totally missed this HUGE feast! What a LUAU! Get the instruments out guys, were havin a parti!
I simply love this idea...
I agree the faith of Abraham is central to scripture... because his faith defines the New Covenant and contrasts it with the Old Covenant. Paul tells us so in Romans 4:2-3 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
AND Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all Romans 4:16
This last Sunday my grandkids and I were singing and doing all the handmotions to the song Father Abraham... Do you know it? It is such a fun and encouraging song! :silly
Whoa! Jacob and Laban were taking that covenant in earnest! You put it well, it was an insurance policy. Gosh it seems like Issac is such a good guy, getting along with everybody, he even makes a friend of Abimelech who hated him. But later, he becomes so self serving and blind (not just literally) to the heart of God to bless Jacob and not Esau... Was that beacuse he liked fresh meat grilled on the barby do you think?
On the Moses eating a meal with his elders and God, I was wrong they did. i found this while reading through again... Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.
Well what do you know?
So can you pull this into the NT? Do you have comparisons there too? And can you hepl us glean a better understanding of WHY God is always eating with His people? Jesus' last encounter with His disciples is when He is frying fish and making bread on the sea shore. Sounds yummy! :biglaugh
The next BIG OCCASION IMHO is the wedding feast! No calories, no bloated tummy, no alkaseltzer, no foods "i don't like" ... Just wonderful fantastic Jesus... with fabulous fun~ fellowship and food too!
Living in expectation...
bonnie
It is so odd that Lovely needed that bit from Craig, since it is only now that I have been reading thru these scriptures, part of my daily BS. Anyway, I missed your imput to my questions before, and the thread got buried so I forgot about. But reading through your answers now when I am sorting it out the best I can just blessed me SO MUCH!
Let me go over what I think I understand better, and if you don't mind add a few more questions?
I really think you are correct when you say that Abraham and his family, tribe, all sat down and enjoyed that bar-b-que! There is something very interesting in the way the Lord seems to really enjoy the smell of roasting MEAT... Maybe it's because our flesh needs to be purified in fire, eh?
Besides, Abraham was very didligent to keep the vutures OFF the sacrifice before God cut the covenant with him, I doubt if he let them eat it afterwards. It was probably so much more precious since God's smoking furnace had cooked it!Oh Yeah, YHVH LIKES BAR-B-QUE... That's about 2400-3200 pounds of bull baloney! You know, I have always been so wound up with the emotional self control that Hannah was learning, and her giving of her son BACK to God, that I totally missed this HUGE feast! What a LUAU! Get the instruments out guys, were havin a parti!
I simply love this idea...
:D
I agree the faith of Abraham is central to scripture... because his faith defines the New Covenant and contrasts it with the Old Covenant. Paul tells us so in Romans 4:2-3 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
AND Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all Romans 4:16
This last Sunday my grandkids and I were singing and doing all the handmotions to the song Father Abraham... Do you know it? It is such a fun and encouraging song! :silly
Whoa! Jacob and Laban were taking that covenant in earnest! You put it well, it was an insurance policy. Gosh it seems like Issac is such a good guy, getting along with everybody, he even makes a friend of Abimelech who hated him. But later, he becomes so self serving and blind (not just literally) to the heart of God to bless Jacob and not Esau... Was that beacuse he liked fresh meat grilled on the barby do you think?
On the Moses eating a meal with his elders and God, I was wrong they did. i found this while reading through again... Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.
Well what do you know?
So can you pull this into the NT? Do you have comparisons there too? And can you hepl us glean a better understanding of WHY God is always eating with His people? Jesus' last encounter with His disciples is when He is frying fish and making bread on the sea shore. Sounds yummy! :biglaugh
The next BIG OCCASION IMHO is the wedding feast! No calories, no bloated tummy, no alkaseltzer, no foods "i don't like" ... Just wonderful fantastic Jesus... with fabulous fun~ fellowship and food too!
Living in expectation...
bonnie
Theodore A. Jones
Member
According to 1 Cor. 2:6-8 there is no information from any source prior to Jesus' crucifixion that would have revealed the actual reason for Jesus' crucifixion. As I've said to you previously. The only purpose for the existance of the Lord's table is incrimination regarding that Jesus' says this table is a snare and a trap. Celebration of a man's death is approving it as a good thing and is presuming a sin to be directly benefical. Your conjecture is an error and you violate two direct commands of God by teaching this conjecture publicly. "Do NOT follow the crowd in doing evil." and "Do NOT lie to the people." For the crucifixion of Jesus' is the sin of murder caused by bloodshed under the guise of it being good when in fact it was an exceedingly evil action. Celebrating his crucifixion incriminates you and everyone who believes your teaching.
stovebolts
Member
Hi Theodore,
I hope you've had a good read and that as two brothers, we can study God's word and let him guide us.
I'll be posting from the NIV.
I'll post in reply to what I can, and I hope we can all benefit from it.
49 Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53 So from that day on they plotted to take his life.
What is cause for celebration is what the cross accomplished, once and for all for it was through the work of the cross that God is reconciling all things. Celebration occurs at Table, not Cross.
Again, I agree that we should not celebrate the death of a man. Paul echo's this when he states, "You were bought with a price".
If you look through this study, you will find a pattern of celebration at Table by way of the work of the Alter. If the Alter did not exist, neither would Table. Table is a time of celebration, and Jesus is our host. This is why the cross grounds the table. They each serve different functions to reach one main goal. Reconciliation.
Again, we do not celebrate the crucifixion of Christ.
I hope this clarifies things a bit.
God Bless
I hope you've had a good read and that as two brothers, we can study God's word and let him guide us.
I'll be posting from the NIV.
I'll post in reply to what I can, and I hope we can all benefit from it.
John 11:
49 Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53 So from that day on they plotted to take his life.
Within this study, I've tried to set forth the purpose of Table by way of the meals Jesus ate. While I do agree that table can be incriminating, it certainly isn't inclusive and is dependent upon how one approaches Table. Please, take a look back at the work that has already been done in this study on Table,and see if you agree. But you do bring up a very, very good point.
We do not celebrate the death of Jesus, nor should the death of Jesus be cause for celebration. It is a somber moment in which to reflect.
What is cause for celebration is what the cross accomplished, once and for all for it was through the work of the cross that God is reconciling all things. Celebration occurs at Table, not Cross.
Again, I agree that we should not celebrate the death of a man. Paul echo's this when he states, "You were bought with a price".
If you look through this study, you will find a pattern of celebration at Table by way of the work of the Alter. If the Alter did not exist, neither would Table. Table is a time of celebration, and Jesus is our host. This is why the cross grounds the table. They each serve different functions to reach one main goal. Reconciliation.
Again, we do not celebrate the crucifixion of Christ.
I hope this clarifies things a bit.
God Bless
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adelphos
Member
Hi,
Perhaps I misunderstood you, but I do glory in the cross (Gal. 6:14).
Respectfully,
Adelphos
F
felix
Guest
I did a study on communion long back. I believe the attached document will be useful.