Lord's Table - How was great meal transformed to piece of bread?

[jonahmano]

In 1 Corinthians 11 we see that people fight for Lord's table. My question is starting the day when Lord introduced his Last Supper before he was handed over to Pilate till the days of Corinth, we find that Lord's table was something a big meal which would fill your stomach.

But today as Lord's table we take just a piece of bread and a cup of wine. How, when and why all of this got transformed?

 

[Free]

Because it isn't the entire Last Supper which we celebrate with Communion, it is only the last part where Jesus takes the bread and the wine as representing himself and his sacrifice. That is what Jesus instituted and is supported by 1 Cor 11:23-26.

 

[jonahmano]

Because it isn't the entire Last Supper which we celebrate with Communion, it is only the last part where Jesus takes the bread and the wine as representing himself and his sacrifice. That is what Jesus instituted and is supported by 1 Cor 11:23-26.

But still the corinth church fought for the communion and I don't think it was a small piece of bread which they fought for.

 

[Free]

Paul is pointing out the error of their indulgence--some eating so much that some went without; some drinking so much that they got drunk. Verse 34 sums it all up when Paul says that if one is hungry, he should eat at home. The passage seems to suggest that the Lord's Supper was pretty much as it is now.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

i'm absolutely positive after decades of service in grace, and devouring as much as Yhwh provided me, getting the truth no matter what the cost, literally sweet to start, then sour/bitter, like as other places in Scripture,
that what christendom practices today is nothing at all like what the disciples with Jesus and with ekklesia after His Resurrection practiced.
however, there is almost no place to go to to see 'right ruling', in line with all Scripture, serving Yhwh by faith in Yeshua's Faithfulness, in grace, a totally free and unmerited gift from ABBA.
it is not too hard to show, historically as well as spiritually, for those seeking truth in Yeshua and seeking ABBA in order to be rescued from this wicked generation and in order to live the way HE wants us to,
that all the changes introduced and even enforced by so-called 'authorities' shortly after 300a.d. were all life stealing, life draining, oppressive, deceptive and greedy,
so, yes, with a broad sweep, a lot can be dealt with at once because of the origin of the deceitfulness, as well as the continuing power behind it. >> i.e. if it's origin is outside of Christ, outside of Yhwh's Word, and oppressive and opposed to His people and even to Himself and to His Word, then whatever proceeds from that origin is not to be accepted by His people as if from Him. this is very basic and essential when searching out the truth as Yhwh permits.

 

[clark thompson]

I once went to a church where they had communion along with a meal, I would prefer this more.

 

[TOG]

Paul is pointing out the error of their indulgence--some eating so much that some went without; some drinking so much that they got drunk. Verse 34 sums it all up when Paul says that if one is hungry, he should eat at home. The passage seems to suggest that the Lord's Supper was pretty much as it is now.

If you ate all the bread and drank all the wine that is offered to an entire congreation of 100 - 200 people during communion, it would be more of a snack than a meal. Certainly nothing that would make you drunk or give anyone reason to call you a glutton. What they did in the first century was completely different. We know from extra-biblical sources that they had something called a love feast. It was something akin to today's pot lucks that many churches have. I think it's probably something like that that is being talked about in I Cor. 11.

The TOG​

 

[Free]

If you ate all the bread and drank all the wine that is offered to an entire congreation of 100 - 200 people during communion, it would be more of a snack than a meal. Certainly nothing that would make you drunk or give anyone reason to call you a glutton. What they did in the first century was completely different. We know from extra-biblical sources that they had something called a love feast. It was something akin to today's pot lucks that many churches have. I think it's probably something like that that is being talked about in I Cor. 11.

The TOG​

Perhaps, but, like I said, Paul says if someone is hungry then they should eat at home. This suggests that it would be something less than a full meal. The whole point though was sharing in the bread and the wine in remembrance of Christ. It really doesn't matter how one goes about it or whether or not it is exactly how the early church did it, as long as there is some bread and some "wine" to represent his body and his blood. On those two things one is not to over indulge.

 

[Sparkey]

"He then lying on Jesus' breast said unto him, Lord, who is it? Jesus answered, He it is, to
whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it
to Judas Iscariot" (John 13:25, 26).

What is meant by the "sop"? It is the most tasty morsel of food being served at the feast. It may be served in the "bread spoon," but is more often picked up by the host with his thumb and finger, and handed directly to one of the guests.

But why is a sop given to one of the guests? A native and resident of Bible lands says that certain villagers there have this custom of giving the sop today, and he describes the purpose of the act thus:

It is with them a mark of special respect for the master of the feast to hand to a guest portions of
what is before him, or to insist on putting morsels or sops into his mouth with his own hand. I
have had this done to me several times, when the intention was certainly to honor and manifest
good will.
​

The meaning of what CHRIST did then was most certainly to extend love and friendship to the very one who was going to betray Him. The act has been described as if the LORD were saying to the traitor:Judas, my disciple, I have infinite pity for you. You have proved false, you have forsaken me in
your heart; but I will not treat you as an enemy, for I have come not to destroy, but to fulfill. Here is my sop of friendship, and "that thou doest, do quickly."

-selected portion of Manners and Customs of Bible Lands (by Fred H. Wight)

 

[chessman]

You guys need a smiley that's Paul Harvey's face.

This post, kind of tells "the rest of the story".

 

[jonahmano]

Perhaps, but, like I said, Paul says if someone is hungry then they should eat at home. This suggests that it would be something less than a full meal. The whole point though was sharing in the bread and the wine in remembrance of Christ. It really doesn't matter how one goes about it or whether or not it is exactly how the early church did it, as long as there is some bread and some "wine" to represent his body and his blood. On those two things one is not to over indulge.

I don't think if someone is hungry comment will point out that it's just bread and wine. When Paul says "someone is hungry" then he means that if you really want to take part of the love feast then you should have some discipline and the logic of less than a meal isn't appealing because a piece or pieces of bread can't satisfy the hungry and it's certainly has to be a meal equal to breakfast atleast.

And I fear since lots of traditions of pagan religion adopted in the Roman catholic church, might be breaking of bread also changed.

 

[Free]

I don't think if someone is hungry comment will point out that it's just bread and wine. When Paul says "someone is hungry" then he means that if you really want to take part of the love feast then you should have some discipline and the logic of less than a meal isn't appealing because a piece or pieces of bread can't satisfy the hungry and it's certainly has to be a meal equal to breakfast atleast.

And I fear since lots of traditions of pagan religion adopted in the Roman catholic church, might be breaking of bread also changed.

I think there is more to Paul's statement since he says that if someone is hungry, he should eat at home. Regardless, you don't have anything to fear. Bread is bread and wine is wine. Those are the two things that matter and the way things are typically done these days upholds those.

 

[Deborah13]

"He then lying on Jesus' breast said unto him, Lord, who is it? Jesus answered, He it is, to
whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it
to Judas Iscariot" (John 13:25, 26).

What is meant by the "sop"? It is the most tasty morsel of food being served at the feast. It may be served in the "bread spoon," but is more often picked up by the host with his thumb and finger, and handed directly to one of the guests.

But why is a sop given to one of the guests? A native and resident of Bible lands says that certain villagers there have this custom of giving the sop today, and he describes the purpose of the act thus:

It is with them a mark of special respect for the master of the feast to hand to a guest portions of
what is before him, or to insist on putting morsels or sops into his mouth with his own hand. I
have had this done to me several times, when the intention was certainly to honor and manifest
good will.
​

The meaning of what CHRIST did then was most certainly to extend love and friendship to the very one who was going to betray Him. The act has been described as if the LORD were saying to the traitor:Judas, my disciple, I have infinite pity for you. You have proved false, you have forsaken me in
your heart; but I will not treat you as an enemy, for I have come not to destroy, but to fulfill. Here is my sop of friendship, and "that thou doest, do quickly."

-selected portion of Manners and Customs of Bible Lands (by Fred H. Wight)

This post made me literally cry.

 

[Deborah13]

Young's Literal Translation
1Co 11:17 And this declaring, I give no praise, because not for the better, but for the worse ye come together;
1Co 11:18 for first, indeed, ye coming together in an assembly, I hear of divisions being among you, and partly I believe it ,
1Co 11:19 for it behoveth sects also to be among you, that those approved may become manifest among you;
1Co 11:20 ye, then, coming together at the same place--it is not to eat the Lord's supper;
1Co 11:21 for each his own supper doth take before in the eating, and one is hungry, and another is drunk;
1Co 11:22 why, have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or the assembly of God do ye despise, and shame those not having? what may I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I do not praise!

First they were not really coming together, they were divided into their own sects. Paul speaks of directly.
1Co 1:12 and I say this, that each one of you saith, `I, indeed, am of Paul' --`and I of Apollos,' --`and I of Cephas,' --`and I of Christ.'
1Co 3:4 for when one may say, `I, indeed, am of Paul;' and another, `I--of Apollos;' are ye not fleshly?

Secondly they were bringing their own suppers from their homes. This was not a potluck. They ate what they brought. Some had lots of food to bring and/or lots of wine. While others being poor had very little to bring for their supper.
1Co 11:22 why, have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or the assembly of God do ye despise, and shame those not having? what may I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I do not praise!
This would be like having a potluck and announcing what each person had brought. Ms. Deborah provided all the roasted lamb [oh, isn't she special] and go on down the line and then there is poor Mr. Sparrowhawke who only brought one loaf of bread, shaming [embarrassing] Mr Sparrowhawke.

Thirdly they were no discerning the body of the Lord.
1Co 11:26 for as often as ye may eat this bread, and this cup may drink, the death of the Lord ye do shew forth--till he may come;
1Co 11:27 so that whoever may eat this bread or may drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, guilty he shall be of the body and blood of the Lord:
1Co 11:28 and let a man be proving himself, and so of the bread let him eat, and of the cup let him drink;
1Co 11:29 for he who is eating and drinking unworthily, judgment to himself he doth eat and drink--not discerning the body of the Lord.

I believe that Paul is saying this is not a party people this is a solemn remembering of the torn flesh and the blood shed by our Lord in our place.
It's not a time for navel gazing as some teach it is. Only in judging ourselves that we are discerning the body of the Lord, a time of humble worship and reflection on Him.
It is my belief that after this if the congregation comes together as One Body and shares a meal to celebrate the victory that He won at the cross, this also honors Him.

 

[agua.]

Young's Literal Translation
1Co 11:17 And this declaring, I give no praise, because not for the better, but for the worse ye come together;
1Co 11:18 for first, indeed, ye coming together in an assembly, I hear of divisions being among you, and partly I believe it ,
1Co 11:19 for it behoveth sects also to be among you, that those approved may become manifest among you;
1Co 11:20 ye, then, coming together at the same place--it is not to eat the Lord's supper;
1Co 11:21 for each his own supper doth take before in the eating, and one is hungry, and another is drunk;
1Co 11:22 why, have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or the assembly of God do ye despise, and shame those not having? what may I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I do not praise!

First they were not really coming together, they were divided into their own sects. Paul speaks of directly.
1Co 1:12 and I say this, that each one of you saith, `I, indeed, am of Paul' --`and I of Apollos,' --`and I of Cephas,' --`and I of Christ.'
1Co 3:4 for when one may say, `I, indeed, am of Paul;' and another, `I--of Apollos;' are ye not fleshly?

Secondly they were bringing their own suppers from their homes. This was not a potluck. They ate what they brought. Some had lots of food to bring and/or lots of wine. While others being poor had very little to bring for their supper.
1Co 11:22 why, have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or the assembly of God do ye despise, and shame those not having? what may I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I do not praise!
This would be like having a potluck and announcing what each person had brought. Ms. Deborah provided all the roasted lamb [oh, isn't she special] and go on down the line and then there is poor Mr. Sparrowhawke who only brought one loaf of bread, shaming [embarrassing] Mr Sparrowhawke.

Thirdly they were no discerning the body of the Lord.
1Co 11:26 for as often as ye may eat this bread, and this cup may drink, the death of the Lord ye do shew forth--till he may come;
1Co 11:27 so that whoever may eat this bread or may drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, guilty he shall be of the body and blood of the Lord:
1Co 11:28 and let a man be proving himself, and so of the bread let him eat, and of the cup let him drink;
1Co 11:29 for he who is eating and drinking unworthily, judgment to himself he doth eat and drink--not discerning the body of the Lord.

I believe that Paul is saying this is not a party people this is a solemn remembering of the torn flesh and the blood shed by our Lord in our place.
It's not a time for navel gazing as some teach it is. Only in judging ourselves that we are discerning the body of the Lord, a time of humble worship and reflection on Him.
It is my belief that after this if the congregation comes together as One Body and shares a meal to celebrate the victory that He won at the cross, this also honors Him.

Cool Deb. I think also that discerning the Body of Jesus has a couple more connotations. It means to understand that He died because of our sins and carrying on so poorly towards our Brothers and Sisters makes a mockery of this and also Jesus' Body is also the Church so treating another member with such disrespect is disrespecting the Body/Church. I also think it's interesting the discipline that comes from the poor behaviour.

1Co 11:29-32 KJV For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. (30) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (31) For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. (32) But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Christians get sick and die as disciplinary action from Yahweh because they don't discern the Body of Jesus properly ?

( and stop spruikin about the lamb Sparrow's bread is gourmet soy and linseed nom nom :D )

 

[Deborah13]

Cool Deb. I think also that discerning the Body of Jesus has a couple more connotations. It means to understand that He died because of our sins and carrying on so poorly towards our Brothers and Sisters makes a mockery of this and also Jesus' Body is also the Church so treating another member with such disrespect is disrespecting the Body/Church. I also think it's interesting the discipline that comes from the poor behaviour.

1Co 11:29-32 KJV For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. (30) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (31) For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. (32) But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Christians get sick and die as disciplinary action from Yahweh because they don't discern the Body of Jesus properly ?

( and stop spruikin about the lamb Sparrow's bread is gourmet soy and linseed nom nom :biggrin )

I believe that there is a very real spiritual reaction, for lack of a better word, that takes place when one receives the Lord's body in the manner of worship. When one receives with a deep focus that is only on His sacrifice, correctly discerning the Lord's body, it will heal the sick, it will bring about strength in the heart and mind to overcome sin in one's life.
Only the most cold harden heart can face the torn body and flowing blood of the Savior and not be stricken with the reality of His sacrifice for their healing of the body and the soul.

Maybe I can explain it this way. When we witness to the unsaved about what the Savior did for them and they receive the Lord what made this happen? There is power for healing of the body and the soul in the Gospel message of His sacrifice for their healing, there is conviction of one's sin and need to be justified and sanctified by Him, something only He can do.
If one says they are saved and they have never correctly discerned the Lord's body, who do they attribute their salvation to, themselves? Do we tell them go and repent and change your life then you will be worthy to receive the Lord? Or do we tell them receive what He has done for you and He will change you.
Correctly discerning the Lord's body for the first time is what brings true repentance unto salvation.

Each time we receive the Lord's Supper, correctly discerning, there is power in that.
If we don't we do not receive that life giving power.....
YLT
1Co 11:29 for he who is eating and drinking unworthily, judgment to himself he doth eat and drink--not discerning the body of the Lord.
1Co 11:30 Because of this, among you many are weak and sickly, and sleep do many;
1Co 11:31 for if ourselves we were discerning, we would not be being judged,[chastised by the Lord]

It is correctly discerning the Lord's body that changes us from weak, sick, even dead, beggarly, whiny babies into strong, faithful, obedient children. It is His work in us.
If we do this He will have no reason to chastise us.

He said, do this to remember Me. Paul clarified what this meant. Correctly discerning.
I've seen a more solemn and heartfelt remembering for fallen soldiers of war on Memorial Day than some show at receiving the Lord's Supper. Those soldiers, although honorable men that we are thankful for, are just that dead men. Our Lord is alive and continues to keep us safe. But we are never to forget or take lightly His suffering because if we do it becomes a common thing to us. His shed blood is not a common thing. There is power in His shed blood.

Sorry, this is the best I can explain what I see in these verses.
Blessings to you.

 

[agua.]

I believe that there is a very real spiritual reaction, for lack of a better word, that takes place when one receives the Lord's body in the manner of worship. When one receives with a deep focus that is only on His sacrifice, correctly discerning the Lord's body, it will heal the sick, it will bring about strength in the heart and mind to overcome sin in one's life.
Only the most cold harden heart can face the torn body and flowing blood of the Savior and not be stricken with the reality of His sacrifice for their healing of the body and the soul.

Maybe I can explain it this way. When we witness to the unsaved about what the Savior did for them and they receive the Lord what made this happen? There is power for healing of the body and the soul in the Gospel message of His sacrifice for their healing, there is conviction of one's sin and need to be justified and sanctified by Him, something only He can do.
If one says they are saved and they have never correctly discerned the Lord's body, who do they attribute their salvation to, themselves? Do we tell them go and repent and change your life then you will be worthy to receive the Lord? Or do we tell them receive what He has done for you and He will change you.
Correctly discerning the Lord's body for the first time is what brings true repentance unto salvation.

Each time we receive the Lord's Supper, correctly discerning, there is power in that.
If we don't we do not receive that life giving power.....
YLT
1Co 11:29 for he who is eating and drinking unworthily, judgment to himself he doth eat and drink--not discerning the body of the Lord.
1Co 11:30 Because of this, among you many are weak and sickly, and sleep do many;
1Co 11:31 for if ourselves we were discerning, we would not be being judged,[chastised by the Lord]

It is correctly discerning the Lord's body that changes us from weak, sick, even dead, beggarly, whiny babies into strong, faithful, obedient children. It is His work in us.
If we do this He will have no reason to chastise us.

He said, do this to remember Me. Paul clarified what this meant. Correctly discerning.
I've seen a more solemn and heartfelt remembering for fallen soldiers of war on Memorial Day than some show at receiving the Lord's Supper. Those soldiers, although honorable men that we are thankful for, are just that dead men. Our Lord is alive and continues to keep us safe. But we are never to forget or take lightly His suffering because if we do it becomes a common thing to us. His shed blood is not a common thing. There is power in His shed blood.

Sorry, this is the best I can explain what I see in these verses.
Blessings to you.

Thanks Deb I'll consider what you've said. To be clear are you saying the the discipline from Yahweh is because we don't fully give credence to the Lord's sacrifice and not because we are sinning against Brothers and Sisters? I'd also like to ask do you say Yahweh is causing the sickness and death ?

 

[Deborah13]

Thanks Deb I'll consider what you've said. To be clear are you saying the the discipline from Yahweh is because we don't fully give credence to the Lord's sacrifice and not because we are sinning against Brothers and Sisters? I'd also like to ask do you say Yahweh is causing the sickness and death ?

To be clear are you saying the the discipline from Yahweh is because we don't fully give credence to the Lord's sacrifice...?

Yes, Paul addressed in some ways how they were not worthy, but I believe it all boils down to this one thing, not discerning or distinguishing the Lord's body. The Lord's Supper is holy.
Luk 22:19 And having taken bread, having given thanks, he brake and gave to them, saying, `This is my body, that for you is being given, this do ye--to remembrance of me.'
Luk 22:20 In like manner, also, the cup after the supping, saying, `This cup is the new covenant in my blood, that for you is being poured forth.

I'd also like to ask do you say Yahweh is causing the sickness and death ?
We cause our own chastisement.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

I want to add this from Matthew Henry because he makes something important clear.

"But fearful believers should not be discouraged from attending at this holy ordinance by the sound of these words, as if they bound upon themselves the sentence of damnation by coming to the table of the Lord unprepared. Thus sin, as well as all others, leaves room for forgiveness upon repentance; and the Holy Spirit never indited this passage of scripture to deter serious Christians from their duty, though the devil has often made this advantage of it, and robbed good Christians of their choicest comforts." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/mhcw/1_corinthians/11.htm

The Lord's Supper is a blessing.
I also believe that if we are struggling with anything in our lives we should eat the bread of life and drink the wine with a humble heart. He knows what we need.

 

[agua.]

To be clear are you saying the the discipline from Yahweh is because we don't fully give credence to the Lord's sacrifice...?

Yes, Paul addressed in some ways how they were not worthy, but I believe it all boils down to this one thing, not discerning or distinguishing the Lord's body. The Lord's Supper is holy.
Luk 22:19 And having taken bread, having given thanks, he brake and gave to them, saying, `This is my body, that for you is being given, this do ye--to remembrance of me.'
Luk 22:20 In like manner, also, the cup after the supping, saying, `This cup is the new covenant in my blood, that for you is being poured forth.

I'd also like to ask do you say Yahweh is causing the sickness and death ?
We cause our own chastisement.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

I want to add this from Matthew Henry because he makes something important clear.

"But fearful believers should not be discouraged from attending at this holy ordinance by the sound of these words, as if they bound upon themselves the sentence of damnation by coming to the table of the Lord unprepared. Thus sin, as well as all others, leaves room for forgiveness upon repentance; and the Holy Spirit never indited this passage of scripture to deter serious Christians from their duty, though the devil has often made this advantage of it, and robbed good Christians of their choicest comforts." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/mhcw/1_corinthians/11.htm

The Lord's Supper is a blessing.
I also believe that if we are struggling with anything in our lives we should eat the bread of life and drink the wine with a humble heart. He knows what we need.

We cause our own chastisement.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Ah ok that's not what I mean I worded that poorly. We cause our own chastisement by not discerning the Body of Jesus correctly but does Yahweh do the chastising ? ie. Does He judge that we have done wrong and then discipline us ?

 

[Deborah13]

Ah ok that's not what I mean I worded that poorly. We cause our own chastisement by not discerning the Body of Jesus correctly but does Yahweh do the chastising ? ie. Does He judge that we have done wrong and then discipline us ?

Yes, that is what I believe verse 32 says.