Losing ones salvation

[Groovy]

I read your post no. 29 and I do think that every Christian would agree with the 5 items.

And I agree with you....
Some verses would seem to suggest that we are saved forever....
but this is because of the word BELIEVE which is often not properly undertood.
Also, we cannot ignore all the conditions and all the IF's to staying saved.

All of scripture must be taken into account.
The writers didn't huddle around a table and come up with the minute details for salvation....
we have to read everything and make sure everything reconciles.

And the MANY verses cannot take precedence over the one or two that might seem different.

Love the like! And I also love your post, because it is in the same vein I mine, except that I like to use the word harmonize instead of reconcile.
Not sure where you want to go from here, unless you want to chime in to my discussion with OB and Blaine.
:^)

 

[Groovy]

I am Orthodox Christian, no matter if you like it or not.

I am also an orthodox Christian, but do you understand how our beliefs differ?
I invite you to critique the 5-point creed I shared (perhaps one point at a time)
and see if we are not as far apart as it now seems.
LIC

 

[Groovy]

True and this is why I asked this question because we must ponder what it means to lose ones salvation in the first place. if it is a gift from God then how do you lose a gift? if it is not by our own efforts we are saved how do you lose it by your own efforts? do your not sinning keep you saved or is it the blood of Christ?

Howdy Blaine. Have you never lost a gift? Do you only give presents to those who earn them?
We are saved by cooperating with God's efforts. God initiates; sinners cooperate--or not.
This is true for becoming saved and for remaining saved: the same non-meritorious faith
satisfies or meets the condition aka God's requirement for salvation (GRFS) from the first
(conversion) to the last (sanctification). [Romans 1:17] It is quite simple and logical.

 

[Groovy]

Groovy, all of these passages are written to churches, and some of the professing Christians are not really Christians, while others who are really committed Christians can wander away morally or spiritually through the influences of their sinful natures, the devil, or the tempting world. The commands are for all of those Christians so that the hypocrites will commit their lives completely to Jesus and the others will avoid wandering from God's will. Not one of the Bible passages says directly that they were genuinely saved and can lose their salvation.

On the other hand, Jesus says very clearly that at the last day, he will resurrect true believers that he has saved in this life:

Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Bruce, The NT was written in order that unbelievers might accept Jesus as Lord and be saved,
and it is obvious to me that those 16 verses warn those who become believers not to commit apostasy.
In John 6:39 Jesus said God's will was that none "He has given me" would be lost, but in 1Timothy 2:3-4
Jesus inspired Paul to write that God's will is that none would be lost, so we see the need to harmonize
the various pronouncements in Scripture.

Regarding debating with/witnessing to atheists, on the Charlie Kirk show today I was introduced to a fellow apologist named Frank Turek, whose blog at crossexamined.org contains many of the points I share on our website <truthseekersfellowship.com>, so I recommend him to y'all.
HAND

 

[JLB]

In John 6:39 Jesus said God's will was that none "He has given me" would be lost, but in 1Timothy 2:3-4
Jesus inspired Paul to write that God's will is that none would be lost, so we see the need to harmonize
the various pronouncements in Scripture.

Yes.

It’s God’s will for the world to be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Will all the unsaved people of the world be saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

True and this is why I asked this question because we must ponder what it means to lose ones salvation in the first place. if it is a gift from God then how do you lose a gift? if it is not by our own efforts we are saved how do you lose it by your own efforts? do your not sinning keep you saved or is it the blood of Christ?

Salvation is a gift from God.
If you read Ephesians 2:8-9 all 3 are gifts from God.
GRACE
FAITH
SALVATION

The gift if free for whoever wants it...
but there are conditions.
One of the conditions is that we are to BELIEVE.

Believe means something.
It means that we are to trust, follow, learn from - our teacher, Jesus.
It's not just a mental belief but a belief from the heart.

The other condition is that God wants us to obey Him.
If we believe in God and obey Him, our salvation is assured.

We are not saved by our own efforts...works will never save anyone.
We must believe in God first.

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

THEN God also wants us to obey Him.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

I think it's that easy.

Also, if Jesus and Paul warn us against loss of salvation..it must mean that it's possible.

 

[GodsGrace]

The liturgy is on Sunday, yes, but Orthodox Christians not deny the law of God, which are the ten commandments. Jesus not taught anything new, it is the law of God that was taught in the old testament.

Yes. Agreed.
We are to follow the moral Law...
the 10 commandments.
Jesus satisfied worshipping on the Sabbath and we can worship on any day....
There is no difference between what Jesus taught and what Paul taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think people lose hope and faith not salvation or even more so someone elses.

Jesus and Paul both taught that salvation can be lost.
It's plain and clear in the NT.

Why would anyone even question there salvation if they have put there hope and trust in Christ. That is just lack of faith and hope, not Christ saying i don't know you anymore.

Christ will never say "I don't know you anymore"...if you remain in Christ.
If you walk according to the spirit and not the flesh...
If you obey God...
you will never become lost.

YOU leave God...
God does not leave YOU.

Oh no what if I have blaspheme the Spirit, what if Jesus says he dont know me. Lack of faith. Why question Chrsits work and what he done for you.

Sometimes we "lack" faith, or question it or question something about God.
This does not mean we are no longer IN CHRIST.
Our departure from Christ must be willingly.

No one questions God's work.
He gives the same opportunity to all.
Believe
Obey
That's it.

If a believer feels they can lose there salvation maybe it's just the Spirit saying your going off track and need to get back on it, not that Christ don't care anymore and has let you go.

Again...
Christ does NOT let US go...
WE let HIM go...

 

[GodsGrace]

Love the like! And I also love your post, because it is in the same vein I mine, except that I like to use the word harmonize instead of reconcile.
Not sure where you want to go from here, unless you want to chime in to my discussion with OB and Blaine.
:^)

Yes Groovy, I'll be posting on this thread because I think it's a very important topic.
(Harmonize is good...)

 

[GodsGrace]

Corn Pop
Where'd you go??

I'll say good night now, but we were having a nice conversation.

 

[Corn Pop]

Corn Pop
Where'd you go??

I'll say good night now, but we were having a nice conversation.

Oh I decided I will study more first before I comment again so i edit.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Howdy Blaine. Have you never lost a gift? Do you only give presents to those who earn them?
We are saved by cooperating with God's efforts. God initiates; sinners cooperate--or not.
This is true for becoming saved and for remaining saved: the same non-meritorious faith
satisfies or meets the condition aka God's requirement for salvation (GRFS) from the first
(conversion) to the last (sanctification). [Romans 1:17] It is quite simple and logical.

And this is not trying to earn our salvation?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Bruce, The NT was written in order that unbelievers might accept Jesus as Lord and be saved,
and it is obvious to me that those 16 verses warn those who become believers not to commit apostasy.
In John 6:39 Jesus said God's will was that none "He has given me" would be lost, but in 1Timothy 2:3-4
Jesus inspired Paul to write that God's will is that none would be lost, so we see the need to harmonize
the various pronouncements in Scripture.

Regarding debating with/witnessing to atheists, on the Charlie Kirk show today I was introduced to a fellow apologist named Frank Turek, whose blog at crossexamined.org contains many of the points I share on our website <truthseekersfellowship.com>, so I recommend him to y'all.
HAND

Groovy, however, those verses were written to the whole churches in which were believers and unbelievers, since we can't really tell the difference with a lot of people because God only ultimately knows their hearts.

Therefore, the inspired writers didn't know for sure either; they wrote for believers that they do not wander and for unbelievers that they finally trust in Christ from their hearts and show their beliefs with their actions.

Not one of those passages says clearly that a truly-saved person can stop being saved.

On the other hand, Jesus says in John 6:35-39 that when he saves someone, that he will hold onto him and resurrect that same person when he returns.

Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

What do you say about this passage?

 

[Groovy]

Yes.

It’s God’s will for the world to be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Will all the unsaved people of the world be saved?

No, only whoever believes in Jesus, which doesn't include atheists and anti-Christs.

 

[Groovy]

And this is not trying to earn our salvation?

Definitely not. Does accepting a gift earn the gift?

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Definitely not. Does accepting a gift earn the gift?

No it doesn't but niether can we earn or keep our salvation ourselves what makes one lose their salvation sin? I thought that was what Jesus was for.

 

[Groovy]

Groovy, however, those verses were written to the whole churches in which were believers and unbelievers, since we can't really tell the difference with a lot of people because God only ultimately knows their hearts.

Therefore, the inspired writers didn't know for sure either; they wrote for believers that they do not wander and for unbelievers that they finally trust in Christ from their hearts and show their beliefs with their actions.

Not one of those passages says clearly that a truly-saved person can stop being saved.

On the other hand, Jesus says in John 6:35-39 that when he saves someone, that he will hold onto him and resurrect that same person when he returns.

Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

What do you say about this passage?

You already posted that in #39 and I replied regarding this passage in #44.
I hoped you would harmonize the two passages.

 

[Groovy]

No it doesn't but niether can we earn or keep our salvation ourselves what makes one lose their salvation sin? I thought that was what Jesus was for.

Blain, if accepting a physical gift does not earn it, then accepting God's spiritual gift does not earn
salvation, nor does continuing to accept/keep the gift of salvation earn it. Only deciding to throw the gift away
will result in a person no longer being saved, since God does not force fools to repent of apostasy/blasphemy,
because at that point they are totally depraved (to quote uno who) and their hearts are completely callous
(cf. Heb. 6:4-6 & Matt. 13:14-15).

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Blain, if accepting a physical gift does not earn it, then accepting God's spiritual gift does not earn
salvation, nor does continuing to accept/keep the gift of salvation earn it. Only deciding to throw the gift away
will result in a person no longer being saved, since God does not force fools to repent of apostasy/blasphemy,
because at that point they are totally depraved (to quote uno who) and their hearts are completely callous
(cf. Heb. 6:4-6 & Matt. 13:14-15).

Yes this would be my understanding of it as well

 

[Groovy]

Yes this would be my understanding of it as well

Great! Then we can agree that the concerns of those who accept TULIP—to affirm the sovereignty of God and the inability of souls to earn salvation—are valid, but the solutions are problematic, because they deny or ignore Scripture teaching the love of God for all sinners and their God-given moral free will (MFW) that makes them justly accountable sinners for rejecting the love of God, thereby effectively perverting the Gospel (Gal. 5:6) and impugning God’s justness/righteousness (Psa. 33:5, Isa. 9:7).

The apparent reasons for these errors are threefold: 1. Ignorance of Scripture that contradicts their dogma, such as those teaching MFW including the possibility of apostasy, 2. Viewing faith (both conversion/first and continuing/last) as a meritorious work rather than as the non-meritorious condition of cooperating with God’s grace, and 3. Lack of concern about portraying God as unjust by showing favoritism toward the elect. Once these errors are cured, spiritual harmony/unity based on the Christian creed is achieved. Yay! Hallelujah! PTL!