Losing ones salvation

[OrthodoxBeliever]

I am also an orthodox Christian, but do you understand how our beliefs differ?
I invite you to critique the 5-point creed I shared (perhaps one point at a time)
and see if we are not as far apart as it now seems.
LIC

I don't want to prove that I am Orthodox Christian. I have priest who I follow everything he saying for many years. And he told me to not be too good, as this is not Godly, so the way we act is good for us with him. The priest in Orthodoxy, called spiritual father is to you, your personal guide, of course it matters if the one who you have is worthy, but mine is, he said we have same spirituality, and he is very Orthodox, more like a saint. If he saying we have same spirituality means he knows I am Orthodox too. Of course I am baptized and chrismated as infant. I kept the baptism and whole life I am going to Orthodox church, keeping the commandments of God, reading Bible. I have fasted for years, and still struggling with God's way but this is the right way, and doing everyhing an Orthodox Christian doing. My Bible is Orthodox also. If you want to know what the Orthodox Christians believe you need to see the Nicene Creed. Also you need to open an Orthodox Bible, as it is different than the Protestant one. With the Protestant one, you will fall into sin, it is completely different. But it is in my own language, so read what your spiritual father telling you. Thanks.

 

[JLB]

No, only whoever believes in Jesus, which doesn't include atheists and anti-Christs.

Yes sir agreed.

Only those who believe will be saved.

 

[JLB]

I don't want to prove that I am Orthodox Christian. I have priest who I follow everything he saying for many years. And he told me to not be too good, as this is not Godly, so the way we act is good for us with him. The priest in Orthodoxy, called spiritual father is to you, your personal guide, of course it matters if the one who you have is worthy, but mine is, he said we have same spirituality, and he is very Orthodox, more like a saint. If he saying we have same spirituality means he knows I am Orthodox too. Of course I am baptized and chrismated as infant. I kept the baptism and whole life I am going to Orthodox church, keeping the commandments of God, reading Bible. I have fasted for years, and still struggling with God's way but this is the right way, and doing everyhing an Orthodox Christian doing. My Bible is Orthodox also. If you want to know what the Orthodox Christians believe you need to see the Nicene Creed. Also you need to open an Orthodox Bible, as it is different than the Protestant one. With the Protestant one, you will fall into sin, it is completely different. But it is in my own language, so read what your spiritual father telling you. Thanks.

Do you believe a person must be born again; born of the Spirit?

 

[OrthodoxBeliever]

Do you believe a person must be born again; born of the Spirit?

Yes, Orthodoxy believe that a person must be born again, but this happens when you firstly believe in Christ.

 

[JLB]

Believe means something.
It means that we are to trust, follow, learn from - our teacher, Jesus.
It's not just a mental belief but a belief from the heart.

The other condition is that God wants us to obey Him.
If we believe in God and obey Him, our salvation is assured.

Yes. So true.


The biblical word believe means commit, trust, and obey.

Believe and obey are used interchangeably in scripture.


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB


IOW’s unbelief is disobedience


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:8 NKJV

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:8 KJV


To follow Him means to follow His pattern of lifestyle, which is to say obey Him.


Eternal salvation is promised to those who obey Him.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

 

[JLB]

Yes, Orthodoxy believe that a person must be born again, but this happens when you firstly believe in Christ.

Amen.

Have you read anything written by Guyon, Fenelon or Molinos?

 

[Groovy]

I don't want to prove that I am Orthodox Christian. I have priest who I follow everything he saying for many years. And he told me to not be too good, as this is not Godly, so the way we act is good for us with him. The priest in Orthodoxy, called spiritual father is to you, your personal guide, of course it matters if the one who you have is worthy, but mine is, he said we have same spirituality, and he is very Orthodox, more like a saint. If he saying we have same spirituality means he knows I am Orthodox too. Of course I am baptized and chrismated as infant. I kept the baptism and whole life I am going to Orthodox church, keeping the commandments of God, reading Bible. I have fasted for years, and still struggling with God's way but this is the right way, and doing everyhing an Orthodox Christian doing. My Bible is Orthodox also. If you want to know what the Orthodox Christians believe you need to see the Nicene Creed. Also you need to open an Orthodox Bible, as it is different than the Protestant one. With the Protestant one, you will fall into sin, it is completely different. But it is in my own language, so read what your spiritual father telling you. Thanks.

My interest is exploring whether we both are orthodox Christians, and I suspect you misspoke when you said in #26 that "There is no salvation", so may I suggest you share my concerns or questions with your priest? (I think being born again is being saved.)
Does he agree with saying that "You can be found innocent only by keeping the ten commandments" without regard to whether or not you accept Jesus as Messiah and Lord?
And third, does he think "There is no new and old law"? That Jesus did not come to fulfill the law and command the new law of love per John 13:34, etc.?
(Fourth) Although God does not change, does the revelation of His will in the NT not supersede the revelation of the law of Moses in the OT?

Just some things to think about as we seek to improve our understanding of Scripture and even our own church's doctrine. I hope our Bibles do not contain contradictory doctrines--and I doubt they do.

 

[OrthodoxBeliever]

Amen.

Have you read anything written by Guyon, Fenelon or Molinos?

No.

 

[OrthodoxBeliever]

My interest is exploring whether we both are orthodox Christians, and I suspect you misspoke when you said in #26 that "There is no salvation", so may I suggest you share my concerns or questions with your priest? (I think being born again is being saved.)
Does he agree with saying that "You can be found innocent only by keeping the ten commandments" without regard to whether or not you accept Jesus as Messiah and Lord?
And third, does he think "There is no new and old law"? That Jesus did not come to fulfill the law and command the new law of love per John 13:34, etc.?
(Fourth) Although God does not change, does the revelation of His will in the NT not supersede the revelation of the law of Moses in the OT?

Just some things to think about as we seek to improve our understanding of Scripture and even our own church's doctrine. I hope our Bibles do not contain contradictory doctrines--and I doubt they do.

Born again not means saved, this is when you firstly believe. The road to spiritual growth is a long way. I cannot ask my priest, he is very old.

 

[Eli1+]

I don't want to prove that I am Orthodox Christian. I have priest who I follow everything he saying for many years. And he told me to not be too good, as this is not Godly, so the way we act is good for us with him. The priest in Orthodoxy, called spiritual father is to you, your personal guide, of course it matters if the one who you have is worthy, but mine is, he said we have same spirituality, and he is very Orthodox, more like a saint. If he saying we have same spirituality means he knows I am Orthodox too. Of course I am baptized and chrismated as infant. I kept the baptism and whole life I am going to Orthodox church, keeping the commandments of God, reading Bible. I have fasted for years, and still struggling with God's way but this is the right way, and doing everyhing an Orthodox Christian doing. My Bible is Orthodox also. If you want to know what the Orthodox Christians believe you need to see the Nicene Creed. Also you need to open an Orthodox Bible, as it is different than the Protestant one. With the Protestant one, you will fall into sin, it is completely different. But it is in my own language, so read what your spiritual father telling you. Thanks.

God bless you.

 

[Eli1+]

Born again not means saved, this is when you firstly believe. The road to spiritual growth is a long way. I cannot ask my priest, he is very old.

God bless you again.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Great! Then we can agree that the concerns of those who accept TULIP—to affirm the sovereignty of God and the inability of souls to earn salvation—are valid, but the solutions are problematic, because they deny or ignore Scripture teaching the love of God for all sinners and their God-given moral free will (MFW) that makes them justly accountable sinners for rejecting the love of God, thereby effectively perverting the Gospel (Gal. 5:6) and impugning God’s justness/righteousness (Psa. 33:5, Isa. 9:7).

The apparent reasons for these errors are threefold: 1. Ignorance of Scripture that contradicts their dogma, such as those teaching MFW including the possibility of apostasy, 2. Viewing faith (both conversion/first and continuing/last) as a meritorious work rather than as the non-meritorious condition of cooperating with God’s grace, and 3. Lack of concern about portraying God as unjust by showing favoritism toward the elect. Once these errors are cured, spiritual harmony/unity based on the Christian creed is achieved. Yay! Hallelujah! PTL!

Groovy, what do you mean when you say the ones who accept TULIP "deny or ignore Scripture teaching the love of God for all sinners and their God-given moral free will (MFW) that makes them justly accountable sinners for rejecting the love of God, thereby effectively perverting the Gospel (Gal. 5:6) and impugning God’s justness/righteousness (Psa. 33:5, Isa. 9:7)". I don't understand your objection to those people. Please clarify it.

In your next paragraph, you use the acronym "MFW," which is unclear to me. What does it stand for, and why you say they ignore other passages that "contradict their dogma"? How could people ever accuse God of injustice for "showing favoritism toward the elect," when I have never heard of such a problem in Reformed circles, when they teach or espouse TULIP? Why do you claim that your interpretations of the Bible are correct and theirs are errors?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I don't want to prove that I am Orthodox Christian. I have priest who I follow everything he saying for many years. And he told me to not be too good, as this is not Godly, so the way we act is good for us with him. The priest in Orthodoxy, called spiritual father is to you, your personal guide, of course it matters if the one who you have is worthy, but mine is, he said we have same spirituality, and he is very Orthodox, more like a saint. If he saying we have same spirituality means he knows I am Orthodox too. Of course I am baptized and chrismated as infant. I kept the baptism and whole life I am going to Orthodox church, keeping the commandments of God, reading Bible. I have fasted for years, and still struggling with God's way but this is the right way, and doing everyhing an Orthodox Christian doing. My Bible is Orthodox also. If you want to know what the Orthodox Christians believe you need to see the Nicene Creed. Also you need to open an Orthodox Bible, as it is different than the Protestant one. With the Protestant one, you will fall into sin, it is completely different. But it is in my own language, so read what your spiritual father telling you. Thanks.

I have two questions, OrthodoxBeliever:

1. Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit as your one God?

2. Can you point out examples in Bible passages of the ways your Orthodox Bible is different from the Protestant Bible, especially the ways they differ in their teachings and history? I'm curious.

The only contact I have had with an Orthodox church was attendance one Sunday at a Serbian Orthodox Church with a friend in the 1950s.

 

[OrthodoxBeliever]

I have two questions, OrthodoxBeliever:

1. Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the Father, and the Holy Spirit as your one God?

2. Can you point out examples in Bible passages of the ways your Orthodox Bible is different from the Protestant Bible, especially the ways they differ in their teachings and history? I'm curious.

The only contact I have had with an Orthodox church was attendance one Sunday at a Serbian Orthodox Church with a friend in the 1950s.

We believe in the Holy Trinity. We keep Jesus's teachings. And we worship God in three persons. We keep the law of God, and we fast just like Jesus ordered.
Example of the Protestant NIV and KJV are those:
Revelation 22
NIV: 21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.
KJV: 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

[Eli1+]

2. Can you point out examples in Bible passages of the ways your Orthodox Bible is different from the Protestant Bible, especially the ways they differ in their teachings and history? I'm curious.

The Bible is generally the same in most countries. Ethiopia has an extra book added, the book of Enoch, but generally speaking the Bible is the same in most places around the world.

What changes is the interpretation of the Bible and translations which are custom-fit to accommodate the culture and traditions of a particular country.

 

[Free]

Also you need to open an Orthodox Bible, as it is different than the Protestant one. With the Protestant one, you will fall into sin, it is completely different.

This is a claim that needs evidence.

 

[Groovy]

Groovy, what do you mean when you say the ones who accept TULIP "deny or ignore Scripture teaching the love of God for all sinners and their God-given moral free will (MFW) that makes them justly accountable sinners for rejecting the love of God, thereby effectively perverting the Gospel (Gal. 5:6) and impugning God’s justness/righteousness (Psa. 33:5, Isa. 9:7)". I don't understand your objection to those people. Please clarify it.

In your next paragraph, you use the acronym "MFW," which is unclear to me. What does it stand for, and why you say they ignore other passages that "contradict their dogma"? How could people ever accuse God of injustice for "showing favoritism toward the elect," when I have never heard of such a problem in Reformed circles, when they teach or espouse TULIP? Why do you claim that your interpretations of the Bible are correct and theirs are errors?

Okay Bruce, the first thing I would like to clarify is that my objection is to the TULIP doctrine rather than to people,
and I disagree with TULIP for the reasons I cited in both paragraphs of post #60.

MFW means moral free will and is the view opposed to TULIP, which I explain as follows:

M – God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) is a Moral condition called faith, which is manifested as seeking God’s righteousness or salvation, which in turn presumes sufficient human volition even for sinners to make them morally accountable.

F – God enables all morally accountable souls sufficient Freedom to satisfy GRFS—or not, because His grace is not irresistible, which means sinners are accountable and justly condemned when they do not repent and accept Christ’s atonement for their sins

W – Faith is almost synonymous with Will, but volition focuses on faith as cooperation with God (or not), and cooperating with God by accepting His grace is NOT meritorious or working to earn heaven or salvation by obeying moral laws.

Unconditionally electing only some is by definition showing favoritism, but of course tulipists do not admit it.

Over...

 

[OrthodoxBeliever]

This is a claim that needs evidence.

Ok, sorry.

 

[Groovy]

We believe in the Holy Trinity. We keep Jesus's teachings. And we worship God in three persons. We keep the law of God, and we fast just like Jesus ordered.
Example of the Protestant NIV and KJV are those:
Revelation 22
NIV: 21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.
KJV: 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Believe in the Trinity and the teachings of Jesus is orthodox; what about the teachings of Paul?

 

[OrthodoxBeliever]

Believe in the Trinity and the teachings of Jesus is orthodox; what about the teachings of Paul?

Yes, of course, the teachings of Paul are part of the Bible.