Losing ones salvation

[Blain DeCastro]

Yes, I came to realize it is problematic to assure former Christians that they are still saved,
when so many passages of Scripture indicate otherwise.

I am just wondering is salvation lost or forfeited?

 

[Groovy]

I am just wondering is salvation lost or forfeited?

Certainly not accidentally, but the sixteen Scriptures I posted previously teach or indicate that saving faith may be repudiated intentionally.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am just wondering is salvation lost or forfeited?

Hi Blain,
What do you think the difference is?
I don't know it.

If you LOSE something, you don't have anymore something you used to have.

If you FORFEIT something you lose it as a penalty for doing something wrong.


The end result is the same.
Either word will work because salvation must be intentionally lost...
You don't just wake up one morning and discover you're no longer saved.

 

[OrthodoxBeliever]

I am happy to learn that my beliefs are orthodox, and I would connect the command of Jesus to be perfect
(Matt. 5:48) with the teachings of Paul about how to become perfect/mature (e.g., Ephesians 4:11-5:7). Here is my understanding of the orthodox teaching regarding God's requirement for salvation (GRFS) for those who have the opportunity to learn the Gospel:

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept/love Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).

The core of the Orthodox faith is keeping the ten commandments as Jesus said this is what is needed one to enter Heaven: Matthew 19:16-17
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Also 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. ("is everything" added by Orthodox translation).

 

[Groovy]

The core of the Orthodox faith is keeping the ten commandments as Jesus said this is what is needed one to enter Heaven: Matthew 19:16-17
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Also 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. ("is everything" added by Orthodox translation).

This may be where our beliefs diverge, but please clarify by answering the questions you prompted:

Do you believe salvation is earned via obeying the Ten Commandments?
Do you believe Jesus said obeying the Sabbath law is required for salvation?
Do you believe Jesus taught that the Law is subsumed by the new law of love? (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:34-35)
Do you believe Jesus commissioned Paul to be an apostle and inspired him to writhe the epistles?

Thanks!

 

[OrthodoxBeliever]

This may be where our beliefs diverge, but please clarify by answering the questions you prompted:

Do you believe salvation is earned via obeying the Ten Commandments?
Do you believe Jesus said obeying the Sabbath law is required for salvation?
Do you believe Jesus taught that the Law is subsumed by the new law of love? (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:34-35)
Do you believe Jesus commissioned Paul to be an apostle and inspired him to writhe the epistles?

Thanks!

There is no salvation, it is either you are found innocent in the final judgement, either not.
You can be found innocent only by keeping the ten commandments, which is the law, which is eternal.
Yes, Sabbath is part of the law.
There is no new and old law, the law of God is eternal. God will not say something that become old. God does not change.
The highest apostles are the 12 which Jesus chosen.
I thank you, too.

 

[GodsGrace]

This may be where our beliefs diverge, but please clarify by answering the questions you prompted:

Do you believe salvation is earned via obeying the Ten Commandments?
Do you believe Jesus said obeying the Sabbath law is required for salvation?
Do you believe Jesus taught that the Law is subsumed by the new law of love? (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:34-35)
Do you believe Jesus commissioned Paul to be an apostle and inspired him to writhe the epistles?

Thanks!

Groovy,,,
I gave you a couple of likes.
Have I misunderstood you?

If you do NOT believe in OSAS,,,,,
then HOW to we deny God AFTER we have been saved?

WHAT would cause us to forfeit our salvation?

And I'll also reply to your questions....

 

[GodsGrace]

This may be where our beliefs diverge, but please clarify by answering the questions you prompted:

Do you believe salvation is earned via obeying the Ten Commandments?

Salvation is not EARNED.
But AFTER we become believers, we are required to obey God.

Do you believe Jesus said obeying the Sabbath law is required for salvation?

No.

Do you believe Jesus taught that the Law is subsumed by the new law of love? (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:34-35)

You'd have to explain what you mean by The Law.
The Law was abolished 2 thousand years ago.

If you mean the law of Christ...
then THAT law and the law of love are exactly the same.

Do you believe Jesus commissioned Paul to be an apostle and inspired him to writhe the epistles?

Thanks!

Paul and Jesus taught exactly the same -- I believe this is what you're suggesting (that perhaps they did NOT).

 

[Groovy]

There is no salvation, it is either you are found innocent in the final judgement, either not.
You can be found innocent only by keeping the ten commandments, which is the law, which is eternal.
Yes, Sabbath is part of the law.
There is no new and old law, the law of God is eternal. God will not say something that become old. God does not change.
The highest apostles are the 12 which Jesus chosen.
I thank you, too.

I see from your replies that you are not a Christian, which fine, because I would not mind interacting with folks of any faith on CF, but may I ask why you do not believe the Christian kerygma? I will post it below for you to evaluate point by point if you are interested in discussing it with such depth.

The normative way of stating the Christian kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept/love Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4. [Over....]

 

[Groovy]

Groovy,,,
I gave you a couple of likes.
Have I misunderstood you?

If you do NOT believe in OSAS,,,,,
then HOW to we deny God AFTER we have been saved?

WHAT would cause us to forfeit our salvation?

And I'll also reply to your questions....

Thanks for the likes, and hopefully I will get another one after clarifying your misunderstanding.
I assume you read the 16 Scriptures indicating the possibility of apostasy, so you understand why
I learned not to believe OSAS as I had been taught.

"How" a Christian repudiates his former Christian faith is by no longer believing the creed I just posted to OB,
as I cited was done by a missionary's daughter and my favorite HS teacher.

"What" would cause them to do that is failure to learn the answers to atheists' questions, which is why
I have spent my life attempting to do so in hopes of helping others not to be tempted to doubt GW.

I will reply to more of your posts later.

 

[Groovy]

Salvation is not EARNED.
But AFTER we become believers, we are required to obey God.


No.

You'd have to explain what you mean by The Law.
The Law was abolished 2 thousand years ago.

If you mean the law of Christ...
then THAT law and the law of love are exactly the same.


Paul and Jesus taught exactly the same -- I believe this is what you're suggesting (that perhaps they did NOT).

Okay, I'm back.

I prefer to say that believers reflect God's love (John 13:35, Gal. 5:6)
and strive for moral perfection (Phil. 3:12-20).

Re the Sabbath law, I agree that obeying it is not required for salvation, and I don't find it to be
re-promulgated by Jesus as part of the other nine moral laws.

Re the OT Mosaic Law and other nine "thou shalt not" moral laws, I find that they are subsumed under
the one new law of love given by Jesus in John 13:34.

Re Jesus and Paul: I believe Jesus inspired Paul's writings, so that what Jesus said in the gospels will jibe
with what Paul wrote in the epistles.

(Another like? :^) Over...

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for the likes, and hopefully I will get another one after clarifying your misunderstanding.
I assume you read the 16 Scriptures indicating the possibility of apostasy, so you understand why
I learned not to believe OSAS as I had been taught.

"How" a Christian repudiates his former Christian faith is by no longer believing the creed I just posted to OB,
as I cited was done by a missionary's daughter and my favorite HS teacher.

"What" would cause them to do that is failure to learn the answers to atheists' questions, which is why
I have spent my life attempting to do so in hopes of helping others not to be tempted to doubt GW.

I will reply to more of your posts later.

I read your post no. 29 and I do think that every Christian would agree with the 5 items.

And I agree with you....
Some verses would seem to suggest that we are saved forever....
but this is because of the word BELIEVE which is often not properly undertood.
Also, we cannot ignore all the conditions and all the IF's to staying saved.

All of scripture must be taken into account.
The writers didn't huddle around a table and come up with the minute details for salvation....
we have to read everything and make sure everything reconciles.

And the MANY verses cannot take precedence over the one or two that might seem different.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, I'm back.

I prefer to say that believers reflect God's love (John 13:35, Gal. 5:6)
and strive for moral perfection (Phil. 3:12-20).

Re the Sabbath law, I agree that obeying it is not required for salvation, and I don't find it to be
re-promulgated by Jesus as part of the other nine moral laws.

Re the OT Mosaic Law and other nine "thou shalt not" moral laws, I find that they are subsumed under
the one new law of love given by Jesus in John 13:34.

Re Jesus and Paul: I believe Jesus inspired Paul's writings, so that what Jesus said in the gospels will jibe
with what Paul wrote in the epistles.

(Another like? :^) Over...

How's that?
(I mean the LIKE)

 

[OrthodoxBeliever]

I see from your replies that you are not a Christian, which fine, because I would not mind interacting with folks of any faith on CF, but may I ask why you do not believe the Christian kerygma? I will post it below for you to evaluate point by point if you are interested in discussing it with such depth.

The normative way of stating the Christian kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept/love Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4. [Over....]

I am Orthodox Christian, no matter if you like it or not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, I'm back.

I prefer to say that believers reflect God's love (John 13:35, Gal. 5:6)
and strive for moral perfection (Phil. 3:12-20).

Re the Sabbath law, I agree that obeying it is not required for salvation, and I don't find it to be
re-promulgated by Jesus as part of the other nine moral laws.

Re the OT Mosaic Law and other nine "thou shalt not" moral laws, I find that they are subsumed under
the one new law of love given by Jesus in John 13:34.

Re Jesus and Paul: I believe Jesus inspired Paul's writings, so that what Jesus said in the gospels will jibe
with what Paul wrote in the epistles.

(Another like? :^) Over...

Agreed on all.
Nothing to add.

Just want to add that the Mosaic Law is abolished. (Ceremonial and Civil).
Only the moral law remains and if we follow the 2 Great Commandments it is all encompassed by the 2.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am Orthodox Christian, no matter if you like it or not.

I went back to see what you posted that made the other member think you aren't Christian.

I have 2 questions:

1. I believe the Orthodox worship on Sunday.

2. You speak of the Law. Do you mean that you keep the 613 laws in the OT?
Or do you mean the Moral Law which Jesus also taught?

 

[OrthodoxBeliever]

I went back to see what you posted that made the other member think you aren't Christian.

I have 2 questions:

1. I believe the Orthodox worship on Sunday.

2. You speak of the Law. Do you mean that you keep the 613 laws in the OT?
Or do you mean the Moral Law which Jesus also taught?

The liturgy is on Sunday, yes, but Orthodox Christians not deny the law of God, which are the ten commandments. Jesus not taught anything new, it is the law of God that was taught in the old testament.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Hi Blain,
What do you think the difference is?
I don't know it.

If you LOSE something, you don't have anymore something you used to have.

If you FORFEIT something you lose it as a penalty for doing something wrong.


The end result is the same.
Either word will work because salvation must be intentionally lost...
You don't just wake up one morning and discover you're no longer saved.

True and this is why I asked this question because we must ponder what it means to lose ones salvation in the first place. if it is a gift from God then how do you lose a gift? if it is not by our own efforts we are saved how do you lose it by your own efforts? do your not sinning keep you saved or is it the blood of Christ?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I was raised in the Baptist denomination that taught OSAS, but when I read the Bible I learned the following passages taught/indicated the possibility of apostasy:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” This passage indicates that apostasy may be viewed as total depravity or blasphemy against the HS (MT 12:31).

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Groovy, all of these passages are written to churches, and some of the professing Christians are not really Christians, while others who are really committed Christians can wander away morally or spiritually through the influences of their sinful natures, the devil, or the tempting world. The commands are for all of those Christians so that the hypocrites will commit their lives completely to Jesus and the others will avoid wandering from God's will. Not one of the Bible passages says directly that they were genuinely saved and can lose their salvation.

On the other hand, Jesus says very clearly that at the last day, he will resurrect true believers that he has saved in this life:

Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Thanks for the welcome, Blain.
I might explain that I was prompted to read the Bible in part because my innocent upbringing was disturbed when I was told that the daughter of a missionary family in our church had decided she was an atheist, and then I learned that my favorite HS teacher had been a minister but was now an agnostic.
This began my quest to search the Scriptures seeking answers to questions asked by atheists, which was fomented years later when I heard a debate broadcast on radio between the atheist Madalyn O'Hare and an evangelist Bob Harrington--which I had to admit he lost.
Then after another few years circumstances occurred in which I debated about 30 members of O'Hare's disciples at a meeting of the Atheists of Austin, and I felt that my answers also needed to be improved, although they were better than Harrington's.
My interactions with atheists concluded after I participated for a couple of years on an Army forum, during which I honed a few more answers. However, I am sorry to say that my witnessing ended like that of Jesus per Matthew 13:14-15. Since then my interactions have been almost exclusively with Christians except for a couple of relatives.
After participating in dozens of churches and on another chat forum during my 75 years, here I am. :^)

Groovy, I don't debate with unbelievers; I witness to them what God has done in my life. Debating seems too adversarial to me. It never try to talk people into the faith but accept them as they are, establish a friendly relationship with them without taking part with them in their unbelieving lifestyles, and then share one or more of at least a dozen testimonies that God has given me without making them feel pressured to believe or experience my beliefs or experiences. Jesus said to love our enemies, and respect for them is what I have tried to practice in my almost-83 years of life.